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there is no example of us intervention in a nonwestern country that was not replete with bloodshed and atrocity, and yet you just cant restrain yourselves
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Aug 28, 2019 10:23
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It is you who are championing for a dictator that willfully uses starvation and food and the access to medical aid as a weapon and political tool. It is you who supports a dictator who managed to plunge his country into a refugee crisis so severe that it rivals Yemen, before the US was involved. Maduros death squads kills thousands every year and god knows how many are processed through his torture centres. This is the guy you prefer over the democratic opposition.
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Aug 28, 2019 10:27
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you literally have no example of good us intervention
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Aug 28, 2019 10:29
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including the ongoing us intervention causing the starvation you attribute to maduro
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Aug 28, 2019 10:33
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this thread must be destroyed (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 28, 2019 10:34
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WW II? I don't want to see B-52s over Caracas and I don't think that will happen either. Preventing Maduro and his pack of murderers from selling off the property of the Venezuelan people is a good thing though, trickle down economics is utter poo poo in the US and opposed to what tankies might think, it will be even more poo poo in Venezuela. None of the ill gotten gains from Maduro selling off Venezuela to China and Russia will reach the people.
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Aug 28, 2019 10:35
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Tollymain posted:and no, fnox is not right. fnox spews lies and bullshit because fnox stands to gain from the destruction of others I know you're having a meltdown, but what have I lied about and what do I stand to gain?
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Aug 28, 2019 10:46
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fnox posted:I know you're having a meltdown, but what have I lied about and what do I stand to gain? If we assume that the "others" are Maduro and his pack of killers, then you do gain from their destruction. So does the people of Venezuela.
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Aug 28, 2019 11:02
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"theres no racism because we are mostly mixed" is a really bad argument I dont know much about racism in Venezuela, but that argument on itself is a big red flag to me, as it is commonly used by racists in Brazil to deny that we live in a terribly racist society
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Aug 28, 2019 11:59
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Elias_Maluco posted:"theres no racism because we are mostly mixed" is a really bad argument I don’t think his argument is at all that there is no racism in Venezuela, just that it’s not at all the same as racism in the US. And that you can’t say this is how prejudice works in the US so it must work this way in Venezuela also.
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Aug 28, 2019 12:12
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Elias_Maluco posted:"theres no racism because we are mostly mixed" is a really bad argument Brazil also has a history of racist crime, it had legal slavery for far longer than Venezuela, and had a hundred times more slaves, it can be substantiated that Brazilian society developed different from Venezuela despite being geographically close. I’m not saying that there’s no racism, but the idea that the opposition is more white or that it is comprised of white supremacists is ridiculous. Particularly so, because the only event to justify this notion is the murder of Orlando Figuera, a mob murder the government propagandized by turning it into a hate crime. The reality of that murder is that, like hundreds of others that occurred at around the same time, they’re the result of vigilante justice triggered by a completely unreliable police force. Someone said that he was a thief, and a mob descended on him. The same thing has happened dozens of times in the Caracas subway. It’s a horrible thing, but it’s extraordinarily offensive to focus on one murder, and use it to smear all of the oppositions cause by calling them white supremacists. It becomes even more offensive when you see there’s hundreds of unsolved murders by security forces during opposition protests, yet the government is willing to investigate the one because it’s useful to them. fnox fucked around with this message at 13:06 on Aug 28, 2019 |
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Aug 28, 2019 12:39
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Not to mention Maduro's crimes against the native population, a fact that the tankies ITT continue to ignore.
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Aug 28, 2019 14:09
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continual weird and hilarious conflation of "opposed to foreign intervention which fucks things up and makes things worse as evidenced by the last 70 years" and "Maduro supporter and 'tankie'"
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Aug 28, 2019 14:20
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brugroffil posted:continual weird and hilarious conflation of "opposed to foreign intervention which fucks things up and makes things worse as evidenced by the last 70 years" and "Maduro supporter and 'tankie'" Have you ever, like, once, commented on anything that Maduro has done in anything but a positive light? You keep saying poo poo like this but then we see people ignoring how there was a crisis before 2017, how there's been thousands murdered by the government, how every single conceivable quality of life metric has gotten worse under him, how there's 4 million refugees. You see people drive-by shitposting in the thread just to say that the US is causing starvation without ever explaining how. I've explained a dozen times that this is just a continuation of an already existing, terrible circumstance and yet you routinely ignore it. Surely you must realize, it can't ALL be the US fault. At some point, at some stage, Maduro must have done something to make things get this bad. Even if he did absolutely nothing but sit at Miraflores and eat empanadas, he'd still be guilty of a lot of crimes by mere inaction.
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Aug 28, 2019 14:26
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surely we have an excuse and this isn't just being done out of rapacious greed and deliberate cruelty looks at history of american "diplomacy" ah, well, nevertheless
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Aug 28, 2019 14:32
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brugroffil posted:continual weird and hilarious conflation of "opposed to foreign intervention which fucks things up and makes things worse as evidenced by the last 70 years" and "Maduro supporter and 'tankie'" Do you think maduro should step down?
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Aug 28, 2019 14:32
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I don't think I've ever commented on anything Maduro has done in a positive light. I don't think I've ever said it is entirely or even mostly the US's fault. I want to know why you so often lie or, at best, mislead with accusations like that. It really just seems like some of you cannot comprehend the position of other posters: yes, Maduro sucks. Things in Venezuela suck really bad for a variety of reasons including incompetence and corruption by Maduro's government. But US/global sanctions will make things worse for the average Venezuelan and have a track record of marginal-at-best efficacy for improving things for the general populace and much more frequently make things worse. US/global military intervention has a track record of being downright disastrous for the general populace. I don't want to see those things happen because they are very likely to make things worse, not better. I don't know what other path there may be to a better future for Venezuela, but I'm deeply convinced that those two options lead to a worse future. Opposition to invading Iraq didn't make someone a "Saddam supporter" or 'tankie,' opposition to invading Syria didn't make someone a Assad apologist, opposition to bombing Libya didn't make someone a big Ghaddafi fan. Continually framing opposition to foreign involvement in ways that have strong histories of making things worse as support for the current regime is dishonest at best. Tollymain posted:surely we have an excuse and this isn't just being done out of rapacious greed and deliberate cruelty This is the core of it. There is nothing, absolutely nothing benevolent about the US's actions here. The US government does not give a single solitary poo poo about the Venezuelan people. It does not even care about its own citizens in Puerto Rico and instead routinely chastises them and lies about what support it gives to the still-storm-ravaged island. The sanctions and whatever military intervention has been floated has the goal of installing a more US/capital-friendly government, period. brugroffil fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Aug 28, 2019 |
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Aug 28, 2019 14:33
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BigFactory posted:Do you think maduro should step down? Sure. I also simultaneously have little faith that sanctions or military interference would increase the likelihood or speed at which this would happen while I have strong faith it will make things worse for Venezuelans both immediately and over time. This does not make someone a "tankie" or whatever other thoughtless dismissal someone wants to throw out rather than addressing the reality of what sanctions (or for the more extreme advocates, military intervention) actually means.
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Aug 28, 2019 14:35
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"There's no racism because everyone is race-mixed" is a classic racist talking point just like "I can't be racist because there's black/indigenous blood in my family". This should be really obvious and you can look to at what any number of anti-racist organizations and movements in South America, including Venezuela, have to say on the topic, to realize that no, racism isn't over, instead of taking the word of a random goon who's been advocating for intervention this whole thread for it. Even if you are fully, honestly and in good faith, convinced that US intervention and sanctions in Venezuela are needed and a positive thing for the people of Venezuela - you have to admit if you're intellectually honest about it that this absolutely will put you on the same pro-intervention side as the Abrams and the Boltons, unless you make a real effort to separate yourself from them and denounce them. You're going to be making bedfellows with racists who argue things like "racism is over" and you shouldn't expect anyone to take you seriously if you neglect to call them out on this bullshit out of opportunism and convenience because it gives you ammunition against the anti-intervention side. Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Aug 28, 2019 |
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Aug 28, 2019 14:40
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brugroffil posted:continual weird and hilarious conflation of "opposed to foreign intervention which fucks things up and makes things worse as evidenced by the last 70 years" and "Maduro supporter and 'tankie'" This is what "tankie" means though as far as I can tell? I've been called tankie a bunch of times and every single time it's been because of opposing imperialism in the context of some US/NATO intervention or another. Edit: (including Iraq, Syria, Lybia, etc)
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Aug 28, 2019 14:44
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Bob le Moche posted:This is what "tankie" means though as far as I can tell? I've been called tankie a bunch of times and every single time it's been because of opposing imperialism in the context of some US/NATO intervention or another. Ask this guy if Maduro sucks.
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Aug 28, 2019 15:05
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'Tankie' originally referred to leftists who defended the Soviet Union sending tanks in to crush Eastern European governments/countries who considered leaving the Warsaw Pact, painting them as hypocrites who despite their criticisms of imperialism were imperialists of a different stripe, supporters of a Soviet Russian Empire. This bit of propaganda was quite successful because it had the advantage of happening to be actually true. Naturally of course it wasn't merely deployed against supporters of Soviet Russia's interventions, it was used as an attack against anyone antiwar or anticapitalist or anti-imperialist, accusing them of being secretly pro Soviet Empire whether they were or not. The Soviets are gone, but the term is still very useful, and is basically just a catch-all accusation for anyone who doesn't want to carpet bomb the Global South and ship all their resources to be burned in the tanks of All American SUVs (made in Korea). But now Red China is substituted in as the empire that anyone who opposed the Iraq War is supposedly in thrall to (or, bizarrely, Russia is still used anyway, even though the brutal plutocratic Russian oligarchy is pretty much the neocons' ideal society)
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Aug 28, 2019 15:13
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Tollymain posted:there is no example of us intervention in a nonwestern country that was not replete with bloodshed and atrocity, and yet you just cant restrain yourselves What about the failed 1989 Philippine coup d’etat against Aquino
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Aug 28, 2019 15:13
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Squalid posted:What about the failed 1989 Philippine coup d’etat against Aquino So the one where the US didn't do regime change?
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Aug 28, 2019 15:18
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You know, I predicted months ago that allowing the CSPAM dipshits to run wild and endlessly troll the thread would drive all the actual Venezuelans making good posts off, and here we are: only fnox is willing to keep posting. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 28, 2019 15:24
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oh no, our strategic mengele-eichmann reserve is running low
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Aug 28, 2019 15:25
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Tollymain posted:oh no, our strategic mengele-eichmann reserve is running low 'if we are tankies, then the Venezuelan refugees itt must be Nazis' is certainly A Take
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Aug 28, 2019 15:32
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Tollymain posted:oh no, our strategic mengele-eichmann reserve is running low This poo poo right here is down right disgusting. We have an actual Venezuelan whose life has been entirely upended by the disaterous policies of Maduro's regime and you people just want to drive them off as well. I guess it would be much easier for y'all to keep lying if they weren't around.
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Aug 28, 2019 15:34
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brugroffil posted:Sure. You understand too how horribly convenient it is for Maduro to be guilty of all these terrible things yet still remain in power just because he’s on the US’ bad side? I want him to pay for his crimes, I want my country to start repairing itself. Any discussion about how to begin doing that is instantly side tracked by the same people saying the same things over and over and over again, ad nauseum, calling me a liar, calling me a ghoul, calling me a white supremacist, calling me Pinochet supporter, calling me whatever other synonym for fascist exists. I want the Venezuelan crisis to end. I want it to end. That’s what I want. I’ve lost so much to it. And I want to talk about how to end the Venezuelan crisis. I don’t care to discuss America, this is not why I go to this thread.
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Aug 28, 2019 15:36
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you are full of poo poo, bougie scion
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Aug 28, 2019 15:37
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AGGGGH BEES posted:You know, I predicted months ago that allowing the CSPAM dipshits to run wild and endlessly troll the thread would drive all the actual Venezuelans making good posts off, and here we are: only fnox is willing to keep posting. Ironic, this thread was colonized by C-SPAM idiots raving about American intervention, getting rid of the original inhabitants, even forcing the native's king (Chuck Boone) out. The problem isn't debating whether or not American intervention sucks, the problem is when every single discussion has to roll back into what Elliott Abrams ate this morning, thereby stripping Venezuelans of any sense of agency in their own situation. French far leftists do this all the time with North Africa, and it is absurd how racist they are while simultaneously thinking that they're so progressive and whatever. But no, it's just White Man's Burden bullshit in a new pseudo-self-deprecating wrapper. I'm fortunate that I have not seen a real person in the wild espouse views like Bob and Tollymain's since finishing university. VV OK you've said your point, can you stop rehashing it every single post you make?
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Aug 28, 2019 15:42
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fnox posted:You understand too how horribly convenient it is for Maduro to be guilty of all these terrible things yet still remain in power just because he’s on the US’ bad side? I want him to pay for his crimes, I want my country to start repairing itself. Any discussion about how to begin doing that is instantly side tracked by the same people saying the same things over and over and over again, ad nauseum, calling me a liar, calling me a ghoul, calling me a white supremacist, calling me Pinochet supporter, calling me whatever other synonym for fascist exists. Ok. US intervention is likely to make things worse, not better. I think things should be better, not worse, so I oppose US intervention. e: I'll stop rehashing it once interventionists stop lying about what the position actual is. More to the point, any time foreign intervention comes up, it should be expected that some people will correctly point out what that usually results in, particularly with certain interveners. brugroffil fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Aug 28, 2019 |
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Aug 28, 2019 15:43
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I'm sorry you guys are mad that cspam tankies interrupted the foreign intervention cheerleading
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Aug 28, 2019 15:44
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brugroffil posted:Ok. Ok. Maduro has been the one constant this entire time. 90% of Venezuelans want him gone today. I agree, a military intervention by anybody, not only the US would end in disaster. What can be done, to get Maduro to surrender his grasp to power?
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Aug 28, 2019 15:45
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did you just try to call noninterventionism "the new white mans burden"
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Aug 28, 2019 15:46
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if 90% of venezuelans wanted him gone, hed be gone, dipshit
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Aug 28, 2019 15:46
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fnox posted:Ok. I don't know! I've said that before. But just because I don't know the good option that will lead to good outcomes,I don't have to instead support the option that is very likely to lead to worse outcomes.
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Aug 28, 2019 15:47
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90% of Venezuelans want him gone, that's why everyone showed up and supported the coup attempt against him! Wait a sec...
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Aug 28, 2019 15:48
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SlothfulCobra posted:Although I do think that sticking to US-centric interpretations of foreign crises tends to deny the agency of the foreigners in crisis. Most of Venezuela's problems come from Venezuela Saladman posted:The problem isn't debating whether or not American intervention sucks, the problem is when every single discussion has to roll back into what Elliott Abrams ate this morning, thereby stripping Venezuelans of any sense of agency in their own situation. French far leftists do this all the time with North Africa Love to attribute agency to victims so they can be victim-blamed for their situation
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Aug 28, 2019 15:49
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It's possible that 90% want him gone, or some similarly high number, but that they also had very little confidence in Guaido
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Aug 28, 2019 15:49
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