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What happened to that whole proroguing thing? How did Limey Trump go from getting what was supposedly a linchpin to No Deal Brexit Apocalypse to utterly burning down his majority in less than a week? 54 is what you get if you multiply six by nine, and in 54 BC Julius Caesar bashed a bunch of Britons' heads in during the first EU invasion of Glorious England. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Sep 4, 2019 |
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Sep 4, 2019 04:18
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Prorogation is still on the cards as far as I'm aware but it doesn't kick in yet. It's possible Parliament will legislate to extend A50 again or topple the government before it does. E: Or he might actually lose the court case in Scotland at this loving rate who knows lol.
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Sep 4, 2019 04:19
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OwlFancier posted:Looking forward to boris rolling around on the floor of the commons covered in his own piss and poo poo and screaming I'M THE PRIME MINISTER LISTEN TO MEEE! At this rate I'm hoping for Corbz to lay down a sick burn and for him to have a full-on Ace Attorney style breakdown, complete with dramatic music and pauses for effect. Someone upthread suggested he should refer to him as the Rt Honourable Member for Uxbridge rather than the PM and I reckon that would do it. E:Also lmao I just remembered this extremely on-point Steve Bell cartoon from a couple of months ago and had to share. Can't flim flam the jam man 
pablo gbscobar fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Sep 4, 2019 |
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Sep 4, 2019 04:20
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OwlFancier posted:Prorogation is still on the cards as far as I'm aware but it doesn't kick in yet. It's possible Parliament will legislate to extend A50 again or topple the government before it does. So Parliament essentially works by the same rules as Calvinball? I think I always knew this philosophically but it's a helluva thing to witness IRL.
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Sep 4, 2019 04:22
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late night thought: theresa may will run for leadership again after brexit
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Sep 4, 2019 04:22
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Does this mean everyone can tell the DUP to gently caress off now that their 10 mps can't even make up the majority anymore
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Sep 4, 2019 04:23
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A warm welcome for the Liberal Democrats 16th MP!
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Sep 4, 2019 04:25
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Chuka Umana posted:late night thought: theresa may will run for leadership again after brexit Who predicted Maybot would come out of the sea in the post Brexit apocalyptic hellscape that was the UK to propose Meaningful Vote X? Good Scholar, you were right!
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Sep 4, 2019 04:25
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Who decided on "Boris loses control" not "A limp Johnson flops"?
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Sep 4, 2019 04:27
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:So Parliament works by the same rules as Calvinball? Parliament is sovereign. Imagine the most stereotypical absolute dictatorship you can. We live in one of those except the dictator is 650-ish people. Parliament cannot, functionally, stop itself from doing anything it wants to with a simple majority. There are some quirks in how it works, procedural ones, and laws have to be written so that they work or they might get overturned by the courts. But broadly speaking if parliament can get 50+1% of the members in the chamber to vote for a thing, it happens. If it contradicts all prior legal history they can just repeal all those laws so it doesn't, in one bill, in one vote, more or less. So while parliament is scheduled to close soon, it can, until it does, vote the government out of office, or vote to tell boris to go get an extension. You're basically seeing a system that predates the US notion of divided government so no one part of it can really do things. The UK has, functionally, one governing body. The Lords can't totally block a bill and generally won't anyway if it's important, plus some things don't even go to them. The executive is, technically, the queen, and she basically has to do what parliament tells her to, and because parliament can repeal laws whenever it wants to, the judiciary is not really an obstacle either unless they try to do things the lazy way. Simple majorities in the UK parlaiment could rewrite more or less everything about how the country works, given a little time. The only reason they haven't is because nobody has hitherto wanted to. This is basically the impasse of the last few years. Parliament cannot decide what it wants to do and the government can't do anything without parliament's cooperation. The unifying factor right now is that there is a workable majority in parliament for "boris is a loving moron" so technically he has managed to break the deadlock 
OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Sep 4, 2019 |
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Sep 4, 2019 04:27
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Gonzo McFee posted:Who decided on "Boris loses control" not "A limp Johnson flops"? Budget cuts got to everyone, even the knob gag guys.
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Sep 4, 2019 04:30
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OwlFancier posted:You're basically seeing a system that predates the US notion of divided government so no one part of it can really do things. I mean, we specifically wrote things like checks and balances into the Constitution to prevent clowns like Trump from taking power and doing Trump things but, whoops, we forgot to make sure they actually worked so more fool us, really. EDIT: I know I've said this before but despite spending eight years living in the UK y'all still manage to baffle and confuse me on the regular. Also I'm really drat thirsty for a pint of bitter but they don't sell the good stuff here outside specialty stores. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Sep 4, 2019 |
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Sep 4, 2019 04:32
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The UK system is conceptually very simple, it's just wrapped up in a lot of weird language and rituals. But functionally if 50+1% of the MPs vote for something, that happens. That's the entire basis of the UK governmental system, more or less. It's been a complex process of evolution to get to that point without deleting it all and starting over but that's where we've been for probably the last couple of centuries. The politics, basically, centers around controlling what the MPs get to vote on and making sure you can twist the arms of 50+1% of them.
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Sep 4, 2019 04:34
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CommieGIR posted:Press: "Boris Johnson is probably a silent genius" My internal narrative read that in an Attenborough voice. I am not making a word of that up.
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Sep 4, 2019 04:38
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:I mean, we specifically wrote things like checks and balances into the Constitution to prevent clowns like Trump from taking power and doing Trump things but, whoops, we forgot to make sure they actually worked so more fool us, really. If Trump got in power in the UK he could literally install himself as king, provided he had 326 mates to vote for it. The US checks and balances poo poo does work, the funny part is that so, broadly, does the UK approach of not having them. And they work about as well as each other Like on the one hand you have a labyrinthine system to prevent dictatorship. On the other hand you have "dictatorship requires some effort and look at all this old poo poo we got" and so far the latter has worked longer than the former To get back to discworld the british government is a lot like unseen university.The lesson, personally, is that engineering a system that works regardless of the quality of the people involved is fairly hard and you'd be better suited engineering a system to produce better people. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Sep 4, 2019 |
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Sep 4, 2019 04:39
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I was thinking specifically of the Electoral College, which was installed specifically to keep
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Sep 4, 2019 04:45
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Ms Adequate posted:It's truly, truly amazing. Most people were expecting that if we won this vote at all, it would be by a margin of like, one. If one wished to be very optimistic, you'd push that as high as five! Everyone was convinced that we'd be lucky to see more than one Tory do this, half a dozen would be at the very wildest bounds of plausibility; 21 was bonkeys Looney Tunes talk. Not only that, but Ken Clarke, KENNETH loving CLARKE, father of the house, served under 6 different conservative prime ministers, arguably the most liked and respected Tory across all parties, has fantastic approval ratings and considered by many to be "alright for a tory". Imagine the scenes if Jeremy Corbyn had expelled Dennis Skinner from the Labour party.
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Sep 4, 2019 04:59
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Juan Linz made the influential argument in 1985 that most presidential systems have been more unstable than parliamentary ones, centrally due to competing legitimacies of the presidency and legislature
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Sep 4, 2019 05:06
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:Does this mean everyone can tell the DUP to gently caress off now that their 10 mps can't even make up the majority anymore Would be unwise given the Tories might need them again after an election.
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Sep 4, 2019 05:07
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If I recall correctly Kenneth Clarke had the highest approval ratings of any MP, Dennis Skinner was second.
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Sep 4, 2019 05:07
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AceClown posted:Not only that, but Ken Clarke, KENNETH loving CLARKE, father of the house, served under 6 different conservative prime ministers, arguably the most liked and respected Tory across all parties, has fantastic approval ratings and considered by many to be "alright for a tory". Yeah, the fact that they actually went through with booting Ken Clarke is BUCKWILD. If there's anyone in that party who can command any measure of cross-party respect and as you say at least some level of "Alright for a tory", it's him. And they've given their greatest Commons grandee the boot. It's truly, truly apocalyptic scenes for the Tories this week, tbh. I'm trying not to get my hopes up but I'm genuinely, genuinely not seeing how they come back from this. They'd need someone with the charisma of Obama to even try, and... well. Ken Clarke is, hilariously, perhaps the sole politician in their ranks who could have made a credible go of reuniting them and dividing the opposition with a sensible Brexit approach that people trusted him to attempt. Ms Adequate fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Sep 4, 2019 |
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Sep 4, 2019 05:08
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ronya posted:Juan Linz made the influential argument in 1985 that most presidential systems have been more unstable than parliamentary ones, centrally due to competing legitimacies of the presidency and legislature Neat article on this topic showing that the economy does better in parliamentary systems, on average.
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Sep 4, 2019 05:18
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Sep 4, 2019 05:21
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Every form of government, from our Parliament to the Americans’ separation of powers to China’s one-party state to a hypothetical future eco-socialist dictatorship of the gardenariat, is pure smoke and mirrors, where the only ultimate rule is “what you can get away with”. A political system is everyone in the country buying into the collective pretence that This Is The Way Things Are Done Here. Threatening people with violence is a very effective way of getting people to join in your collective pretence, which is what Mao meant by “All political power grows out of the barrel of a gun”, but even that’s not the whole truth: if people are prepared to get shot then you have no coercive power over them. I actually think it’s a strength of the UK system to be relatively honest about this. The fact that we have had more and longer political stability than just about any other country, despite having a grossly unfair distribution of wealth stretching back way longer than the existence of parliament, probably has some connection to our form of government. I see our collective pretence as “these 650 individuals represent all of us, so we are OK with them making decisions”. It’s not the worst, tbh.
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Sep 4, 2019 05:22
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People see democracy as being a way of ensuring that everyone is represented and has a say. That's not the case, democracy mainly exists as a pressure relief valve. Uprisings and revolutions often build up from large groups of people feeling ignored or not listened to. In most democratic systems, once a group gets big enough it tends to get represented in some way, and that releases the pressure that could otherwise lead to violence.
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Sep 4, 2019 05:25
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The UK's rituals also are important. I'll dismiss them as not really being functionally vital and that's true if you were trying to formally map out the system, but cognitively I think they're very important because all that pomp and bullshit is the system people buy into. It's the same reason the queen, technically, is quite important. She is the vessel for the executive authority of parliament and weirdly, it being a little old lady affords it probably more respect than it being a document which can be bent to anybody's will.
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Sep 4, 2019 05:30
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parliamentary systems do have a failure state of not being able to form a government baiting the government into declaring matters of confidence served as the UK's own constructive vote of no-conf release valve in the postwar 20th century we are now at the tricky stage 2 bit where we see whether the govt, under FTPA, can actually succeed in collapsing itself now that it has lost a vote declared to be a matter of confidence
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Sep 4, 2019 05:36
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Senor Tron posted:People see democracy as being a way of ensuring that everyone is represented and has a say. That works so long as the losers accept the validity of an election result. The more times in a row that happens the better. There’s a lot of evidence now from our and the US’s various post-colonial
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Sep 4, 2019 05:51
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but the uk never had to deal with eu austerity because it never joined the eurozone? Quit trying to shift the blame away from the Tories for cutting everything to death.
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Sep 4, 2019 05:53
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That's a communist party publication, so coin flip as to whether they're deranged trots or not.
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Sep 4, 2019 05:56
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are those the speakers or the attendees
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Sep 4, 2019 06:02
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OwlFancier posted:That's a communist party publication, so coin flip as to whether they're deranged trots or not. I think these guys are the CPB, which IIRC are the deranged Marxist-Leninists. EDIT: OK, I don't actually know if they're deranged, but given that they're still pushing a near-term Lexit as a good idea I'm just going to assume they are. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Sep 4, 2019 |
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Sep 4, 2019 06:03
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Remember when SWP collapsed overnight because surprise surprise democratic centralist organizations are playgrounds for rapists
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Sep 4, 2019 06:08
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:What happened to that whole proroguing thing? How did Limey Trump go from getting what was supposedly a linchpin to No Deal Brexit Apocalypse to utterly burning down his majority in less than a week? Boris' Big Move was not taken as lightly by the Tories as some would have predicted.
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Sep 4, 2019 06:14
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OwlFancier posted:The UK's rituals also are important. I'll dismiss them as not really being functionally vital and that's true if you were trying to formally map out the system, but cognitively I think they're very important because all that pomp and bullshit is the system people buy into. It's the same reason the queen, technically, is quite important. She is the vessel for the executive authority of parliament and weirdly, it being a little old lady affords it probably more respect than it being a document which can be bent to anybody's will. I suppose it's kinda similar in terms of foreign affairs and so on, but it doesn't seem like Brits think of their P.Ms like Yanks think of their prezzies which attract these outsized personality cults BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 06:28 on Sep 4, 2019 |
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Sep 4, 2019 06:22
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OwlFancier posted:That's a communist party publication, so coin flip as to whether they're deranged trots or not. Vincent Van Goatse posted:I think these guys are the CPB, which IIRC are the deranged Marxist-Leninists.
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Sep 4, 2019 06:24
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Who said "Not a good start, Boris!"?
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Sep 4, 2019 06:28
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I can't remember what the malfunction of the various UK communist parties is to be completely honest.BrutalistMcDonalds posted:I suppose it's kinda similar in terms of foreign affairs and so on, but it doesn't seem like Brits think of their P.Ms like Yanks think of their prezzies which attract these outsized personality cults Not for lack of trying, mind you. That's a feature of the blair/thatcher/cameron style of doing things.
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Sep 4, 2019 06:29
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OwlFancier posted:I can't remember what the malfunction of the various UK communist parties is to be completely honest. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Healy Warnings: abrasive noise, yelling, lots of Trot newspapers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k67IxOvTlB4&t=178s BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Sep 4, 2019 |
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Sep 4, 2019 06:31
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Beefeater1980 posted:That works so long as the losers accept the validity of an election result. The more times in a row that happens the better. There’s a lot of evidence now from our and the US’s various post-colonial I don't know if that's a condemnation of democracy so much as nation-building. I think pretty much by definition anything imposed from outside will be seen as illegitimate, and whilst that probably could be overcome, it would require decades of work (Meaning it's a no-no because politicians want to sell quick, easy wars, and something like this would need a coherent strategy from the beginning that says "We're going to be there for 50 years minimum" and would probably constitute cultural genocide to some extent. It can be done more quickly but it requires fairly unusual circumstances, cf. post-WW2 Germany and Japan (And Japan isn't exactly the most flourishing, hundred-schools-of-thought democracy around even by Liberal Democracy standards)
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Sep 4, 2019 06:31
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