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Guavanaut posted:their environment gives them space to change positively if they desired, space that not everyone gets This exact same sentence can be applied to all poors in the UK as compared to poor in, say, Venezuela or Central Africa, and is one inch away from “they could pull themselves up by their bootstraps” honestly It’s extremely complex, the human condition
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Sep 15, 2019 20:47
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ThomasPaine posted:Hot take: there are basically zero incels who couldn't be perfectly successful with women if they weren't such poisonous bitter misogynist dumbasses I have a similar friend, same deal, if I had to describe his looks pejoratively I'd say "goofy looking", but he always seems to be stuck choosing between potential girlfriends. Theory: a young man who has no "luck with the ladies" can go one of two ways - "those shallow bitches, it's all their fault, I'm an incel now", or "well, guess I am as hideously undesirable as I suspected, it's all my fault". I went firmly down the latter path, but I do worry that that wasn't due to my inherent goodness, but just luck of not being exposed to incel forums (or whatever they were called around the turn of the millennium). Upside of that path was that, when girls I liked """"friendzoned"""" me, I didn't silently rage at them for doing so - I just had more friends 
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Sep 15, 2019 20:48
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Guavanaut posted:It is, in the same way that Johnson, Rees-Mogg, et al are. But their environment gives them space to change positively if they desired, space that not everyone gets, and I doubt people would be calling Johnson a sticky biscuit elemental if he was an Andy Burnhamesque Labour also-ran or working at Morrison's or doing anything other than loving people over for his own immediate benefit and half the time failing hilariously at that. Incels are that without the ability to gently caress people over as much. Ehhhhhh I still don't really buy that tbh, if people could actually make that decision then more capitalists would be socialists. I think the only reasonable position to take is that it's eminently possible to brain control people with systemic pressures. Which as i've said before, don't let that stop you feeling however you feel, you have a human need to feel better than people even if everyone has no free will really. Pochoclo posted:Actually we are all products of our genetics and upbringing and so we are all victims without agency and thus we shouldn’t blame the poor inhuman billionaires, they are as much victims of the system as the man starvahahahahahahaha gently caress that Basically the first part of this is correct, but you can still totally blame people for things they can't help because the alternative is that you're basically not allowed to feel anything at all. And because this illusion of individual fault is the process by which systemic changes can occur. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Sep 15, 2019 |
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Sep 15, 2019 20:49
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Guavanaut posted:"Yes but why should I have to change, I should get the things that I've been promised by my privilege with zero effort!" Yeah I really do get this, on account of very nearly being one myself. There was a point when I was in my mid-teens when I considered myself a libertarian and new athiest (lol I know) and I could so, so easily have slipped into the whole redpill MGTOW thing. I'm genuinely so glad I came across some marxist writing that very convincingly explained why everything I thought I believed was bullshit, and I've been a leftie ever since. The crux of it was realising that the values of freedom and equality etc (that I still have) are fundamentally impossible under capitalism despite all its rhetoric, and that only communism could genuinely achieve that. But had I not been lucky I worry I could easily have been a full-on incel alt-righter by now. i'm still a bit of a new athiest at heart tbf, even if I now recognise that religion is far from the root of all evil and there are bigger priorities. Dawkins is a dumb old curmudgeon with some awful takes but I still can't bring myself to hate him like most people now do ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Sep 15, 2019 |
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Sep 15, 2019 20:55
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Firos posted:No ifs, only butts.  Taken in Soho.
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Sep 15, 2019 20:57
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Pochoclo posted:This exact same sentence can be applied to all poors in the UK as compared to poor in, say, Venezuela or Central Africa, and is one inch away from “they could pull themselves up by their bootstraps” honestly OwlFancier posted:Ehhhhhh I still don't really buy that tbh, if people could actually make that decision then more capitalists would be socialists. I think the only reasonable position to take is that it's eminently possible to brain control people with systemic pressures. Or we let up and the systemic forces in the direction of reaction, which don't really care if free will exists or not, will keep pressuring them further.
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Sep 15, 2019 20:58
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Red Oktober posted:
I like the implication that he's lodged one of the buttplugs in his ear.
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Sep 15, 2019 20:58
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ThomasPaine posted:Hot take: there are basically zero incels who couldn't be perfectly successful with women if they weren't such poisonous bitter misogynist dumbasses Well yeah, they rage against the concept of male privilege because otherwise they'd have to accept that they're not being judged by their appearance (at least, no where near the extent to which they believe) and that their incel state has nothing to do with the shape of their skulls.
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Sep 15, 2019 20:59
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Guavanaut posted:If the only thing that changes them is social pressure to change then it's less that I can feel that, than that we all should feel that. Likewise if the only thing that will cause incels to exercise their space to change is systemic pressure for them to change then we all should do that too. Well, yes that's sort of what I'm getting at, people have no individual agency but if we all act as if they do that can itself form a systemic pressure, which can force change. It's weird but it's the only way I can make sense of the world.
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Sep 15, 2019 21:00
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Red Oktober posted:
Finally found my spirit animal.
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Sep 15, 2019 21:03
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ThomasPaine posted:i'm still a bit of a new athiest at heart tbf, even if I now recognise that religion is far from the root of all evil and there are bigger priorities. Dawkins is a dumb old curmudgeon with some awful takes but I still can't bring myself to hate him like most people now do See at this point I think that I'd sooner spend time with a geniunely religious believer who wants to help people much much more than any time spent with Dawkins. Dawkins is just a racist old gently caress who made a lot of folks believe they were very smart just because they didn't believe in one conception of god.
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Sep 15, 2019 21:03
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I wonder if, in a few years, we'll look back at the time when we were calling Gove an alien in a skin suit and laughed at his inhuman way of drinking a glass of water with the same "what were we thinking" mindset we have today for what SA was like 10 years ago.
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Sep 15, 2019 21:07
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https://twitter.com/MarkDiStef/status/1173323230549106689 the guardian are cowards
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Sep 15, 2019 21:08
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Josef bugman posted:See at this point I think that I'd sooner spend time with a geniunely religious believer who wants to help people much much more than any time spent with Dawkins. Dawkins is just a racist old gently caress who made a lot of folks believe they were very smart just because they didn't believe in one conception of god. The Blind Watchmaker was a good explanation of how evolution actually works, beyond drawings of monkeys progressively getting up. But he should probably have stuck to that, his actual field.
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Sep 15, 2019 21:09
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Incel """"""culture""""" relies on grabbing people when they're awkward teenagers. When I was a teenager I was a useless piece of poo poo who most assuredly couldn't talk to girls I crushed on. When I got older despite being extremely weird and awkward I didn't have trouble getting romantic partners despite being a hermetic shut-in videos gamer, and now that I'm single it's because I mostly want to be while I figure myself out and go through transition. If I can get a series of long-term girlfriends of whom all three asked me out then I promise that absolutely anyone can. You just have to not fall into being a twat who starts blaming women for when things go wrong, and realize that women are actually human people who will sometimes let you down, sometimes not be interested, and don't owe you anything, and these facts are not the basis for a violently misogynistic ideology. But you get some lonely horny teenagers and tell them it's because the eeeevil feminists have denied you your birthright and soon enough they've become so selfish and toxic they repel everyone except their own little clan of dipshits and dug themselves in so deep they don't go the normal human route of growing up, dealing with poo poo that sometimes sucks, and having normal relationships.Saith posted:The only time you should comment on someones appearance to insult them, its when you see an incel and you're like 'oh he's pretty hot actually' because you're actually implying their personality is just so excessively foul. Exactly. Just how unbelievably awful must Eliot Rodger have been if he, a solid 8/10 at minumum and eminently bangable twink, couldn't get laid now and then? I mean the answer is "so awful he went on a shooting rampage in an effort to punish women" but, you know.
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Sep 15, 2019 21:10
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Guavanaut posted:Bootstrapping yourself from "I should be entitled to be a misogynist piece of poo poo and have women flock to me because it is my birthright as a white man" to "I should not be like that" is a bit different from bootstrapping yourself from poverty into owning a piece of the means of production. That sentence I quoted was being applied to the rich, not to the incels. And no, I meant someone thinking "I could make a lot of effort to extract myself from my current socioeconomic framework, or I could just go with the daily flow" (I said THINKING here ok, careful with the wording, I'm not saying "poor are lazy lol", I was a poor most of my life I know how it works) can be either rich or poor. Humans tend to go with the daily routine flow of things. In the case of the poor, this is because they understandably are exhausted from just surviving and jaded and also simply want to enjoy what little comfort they are able to get. For the rich, it's more a case of having been raised in a highly insular social clique, which heavily colours their perceptions, and they can either make the effort to actually understand the world and risk alienation from most people they know, or just keep going day by day doing what everyone around them also does. It is different, like I said the human condition is complex, remember, but at the same time there is a shared root phenomenon in there, and the rich and the poor are genetically the same species, so we have to understand the way their upbringing and their daily lives make them who they are, make them see the world in the way they do. In the end though gently caress them all the same. Pochoclo fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Sep 15, 2019 |
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Sep 15, 2019 21:10
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Red Oktober posted:Taken in Soho.
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Sep 15, 2019 21:11
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That Italian Guy posted:I wonder if, in a few years, we'll look back at the time when we were calling Gove an alien in a skin suit and laughed at his inhuman way of drinking a glass of water with the same "what were we thinking" mindset we have today for what SA was like 10 years ago. In ten years Gove is going to be seen as a politician from the time where politics was more dignified. I shudder to think what UKMT will be discussing in 2029.
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Sep 15, 2019 21:11
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previous thread. Sorry, couldn't resist. the wobble posted:as a mainland European, I must confess not understanding more of this then this quote="Guavanaut"] Don't you dare oppress us into not hammering our dick into the table! [/quote] https://youtu.be/Gp5St7hORyw
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Sep 15, 2019 21:12
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Nuclear Spoon posted:https://twitter.com/MarkDiStef/status/1173323230549106689 Eh, "his suffering is limited and privileged because the hospital his 6-year-old son died in was better than average" is a pretty lovely take
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Sep 15, 2019 21:12
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Ms Adequate posted:Exactly. Just how unbelievably awful must Eliot Rodger have been if he, a solid 8/10 at minumum and eminently bangable twink, couldn't get laid now and then? I mean the answer is "so awful he went on a shooting rampage in an effort to punish women" but, you know. The catalyst for the Eliot Rodgers shooting was because he got laughed out of a party cuz he tried to throw a girl who rejected him off a balcony and when he got kicked out he forgot his Gucci sunglasses so he had to go back and face more ridicule to retrieve them.
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Sep 15, 2019 21:14
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Bobstar posted:Upside of that path was that, when girls I liked """"friendzoned"""" me, I didn't silently rage at them for doing so - I just had more friends This is good when you do actually have more friends! Post-weird mid-teenage years (but still a good decade ago) the only time I got genuinely annoyed at being ~friendzoned~ was when I asked a girl out, she did the whole 'nah, let's just be friends' thing, and I was very disappointed and sad but said OK fair enough. So I then tried to continue being friends with her, still inviting her round to flat parties and whatever other social occasions (not generally one on one stuff with me), and saying hi if I bumped into her etc. She'd usually make up an excuse or whatever and I got the message after a bit, but only a year or so later down the line did I hear from a mutual friend that she'd found it extremely creepy that I tried to maintain contact and... well... stay friends? I felt super guilty obviously, but she could have just said 'no thanks, cya' from the get go and everything would have been fine? Lesson learned: be honest with people even if it's not easy because otherwise you're going to end up in a total clusterfuck that hurts everyone for literally no reason!
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Sep 15, 2019 21:14
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Qwertycoatl posted:Eh, "his suffering is limited and privileged because the hospital his 6-year-old son died in was better than average" is a pretty lovely take he should be forced to reckon with the damage he's inflicted on the rest of the country
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Sep 15, 2019 21:15
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Jose posted:he should be forced to reckon with the damage he's inflicted on the rest of the country i'm pretty sure he's hid behind his son's death when actually confronted about the effect of his policies on disabled people also
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Sep 15, 2019 21:17
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Josef bugman posted:See at this point I think that I'd sooner spend time with a geniunely religious believer who wants to help people much much more than any time spent with Dawkins. Dawkins is just a racist old gently caress who made a lot of folks believe they were very smart just because they didn't believe in one conception of god. I'm still skeptical of organized religion and its capacity to do anything but justify its own leadership and act as a nonce generation engine (bit like trots), but the Unitarians aren't very organized. -- Old majority group STEM academics with political views: Bobstar posted:But he should probably have stuck to that, his actual field. Pochoclo posted:That sentence I quoted was being applied to the rich, not to the incels. I don't expect them all to give up their wealth willingly and spend all their lives as an ascetic preaching socialism, but spending a little time reflecting on not being a dickhole and understanding poverty might be nice. Maybe I've changed my mind on organized religion, as long as it's the kind that makes the rich piss scared of hell and not the kind that worships work ethic  Chuka Umana posted:I shudder to think what UKMT will be discussing in 2029. You think there'll be a UK in 2029?
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Sep 15, 2019 21:20
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To be fair making fun of gove is unfair to any genuine fish being given a surprise colonoscopy. I narrowly avoided being an incel misogynist too, I imagine it's pretty common among nerdo guys of a certain age. Around 14 or 15 I was a despicable little bastard, psychologically at least, I didn't act out much or anything. But I definitely had that "women like being treated like poo poo not nice guys like me *is an rear end in a top hat*" Instead SA helped me get swole and a relationship helped me get sane. A lot of guys I've heard do the same thing had a hard time when they were suddenly treated better now that they looked good and it made everyone seem shallow. I didn't really have that since I assume people treated me nicer cause I wasn't being a total poo poo to them. Or maybe just cause in Brighton everyone was much hotter than me anyway.
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Sep 15, 2019 21:20
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Qwertycoatl posted:Eh, "his suffering is limited and privileged because the hospital his 6-year-old son died in was better than average" is a pretty lovely take I get what you're saying but I think the point is more that we can't have expected Cameron's experiences with the NHS re: his son to have made him realize "hang on the NHS is very important and needs a lot of money" if what he saw of it was a hospital in a rich place that was getting most or all of what it needed. On the other hand he never fuckin shut up using his dead disabled son to defend all his policies regarding the NHS so On balance gently caress 'im it might be a tasteless line of attack but how many families have suffered becuase of things he, personally and directly, did to the NHS?
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Sep 15, 2019 21:20
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The way Cameron would use the death of his son to deflect any time someone questioned his record on the NHS is probably the thing I hate the most about him.
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Sep 15, 2019 21:23
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Chuka Umana posted:I shudder to think what UKMT will be discussing in 2029.
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Sep 15, 2019 21:23
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Especially when contrasted with Brown who never did the same.
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Sep 15, 2019 21:24
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Guavanaut posted:It's true, but the difference between a rich person saying "if I was a poor lad on a council estate I'd spend all my spare time down the library and become a rich person" and the inverse is that one of those groups has a lot more spare time and libraries. The problem is that rich people don't consider themselves rich. They're trapped in a rat race to be richer than their pals and have more yachts and be more ostentatious and whatnot, so in the end they occupy all their waking time with making number go higher. I've (sadly) known a few rich people in real life and I actually pitied them because their lives were absolutely miserable coked-up hells. They were all assholes though, I haven't met a single good rich person, either they were born into money and thus their brain got poisoned from an early age, or worse, they MADE that money and the only way to make large amounts of money is to be an absolute megashit. Either way "hmmm I could donate 90% of my wealth, stop working and still have my loving grandchildren enjoy a lavish lifestyle" is completely anathema to them
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Sep 15, 2019 21:27
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he's talking about a coming out as a terf day https://twitter.com/Glinner/status/1172914777003368448?s=20
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Sep 15, 2019 21:29
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Ms Adequate posted:I get what you're saying but I think the point is more that we can't have expected Cameron's experiences with the NHS re: his son to have made him realize "hang on the NHS is very important and needs a lot of money" if what he saw of it was a hospital in a rich place that was getting most or all of what it needed. Yeah, fair enough. Cameron was a total poo poo about that.
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Sep 15, 2019 21:29
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I think the weirdest thing I remember thinking as a young person was "I know girls don't like me now, but maybe if I get a good job and am sensible I can at least get married". That was dumb as balls.
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Sep 15, 2019 21:37
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Cerv posted:But enough about your weekend  They have a few of them up  “Guardian of Uranus” is a particularly good strap line.
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Sep 15, 2019 21:39
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Pochoclo posted:The problem is that rich people don't consider themselves rich. They're trapped in a rat race to be richer than their pals and have more yachts and be more ostentatious and whatnot, so in the end they occupy all their waking time with making number go higher. I've (sadly) known a few rich people in real life and I actually pitied them because their lives were absolutely miserable coked-up hells. They were all assholes though, I haven't met a single good rich person, either they were born into money and thus their brain got poisoned from an early age, or worse, they MADE that money and the only way to make large amounts of money is to be an absolute megashit. Either way it sounds like Marx was right and the only way is to wait for the system to collapse (and remember that part of the collapse is our own pressure rather than just sitting back) and aiming for that slim area between 'collapse to fascism' and 'collapse to environmental desolation'. And I guess be thankful that I'm not stuck in that hellish mindset.
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Sep 15, 2019 21:39
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Hot take: David Cameron is one of the worst cunts this blighted isle has ever produced and I do not give a single solitary gently caress about making him feel bad about his dead son, given the number of people his policies have killed.
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Sep 15, 2019 21:41
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Pochoclo posted:The problem is that rich people don't consider themselves rich. They're trapped in a rat race to be richer than their pals and have more yachts and be more ostentatious and whatnot, so in the end they occupy all their waking time with making number go higher. I guess the most extreme example of this is how someone on welfare in the uk would be better off than a worker on a decent wage for Mexico City or parts of India. But straying down that path is straying into dangerous territory towards gammon thinking about flatscreens and what the poor 'deserve.'
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Sep 15, 2019 21:42
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ThomasPaine posted:This is good when you do actually have more friends! Yeah that sucks. I think I avoided that by never asking a girl out! So I guess the "friendzoning" was more a default state of no girl ever making it obvious* that they were interested in me in that way. *my first girlfriend at uni might as well have held up a large sign saying "kiss me, you feckwit", which helped break that cycle. Bobstar fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Sep 15, 2019 |
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Sep 15, 2019 21:46
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Red Oktober posted:
Parliament really needs to appoint a Lord of Lube. Or Lords Lubeal.
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