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This probably won't be relevant to the overall story, but I like how the resurrection process could also explain how Xavier got back into his original body, letting us ignore the Fantomex body swap. They even confirm that they had Xavier's DNA since it's always the basis for Proteus' bodies. Also interesting that they specifically use Xavier's DNA for Proteus. Maybe his psychic powers just make for a better host, but I'm wondering if they aren't hinting at a father/son dynamic between the two.
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Sep 18, 2019 22:09
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Proteus has come back/kind of come back a bunch of times between the original story and now. He was brought back by a conspiracy between puppetmasters Gideon and Toad in the 1990s "Kings of Pain" annual crossover, but convinced to kill himself. Then he almost came back in Excalibur when Mister Sinister tried to clone him, but he didn't actually bring him back but it established his energy/soul was still out there and could be cloned, I guess? Then Proteus came back in Exiles and I think he was supposed to be The Real Proteus or something, but eventually got written out. Then he came back as part of the Necrosha crossover in Mike Carey's X-Men Legacy. Then he came back in the aforementioned Charles Soule Astonishing X-Men. And now he's back again.
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Sep 18, 2019 23:19
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House of and Powers are just setting up the status quo going forward. It's big broad strokes with some explanation put in here and there. I don't expect much time to be given to interpersonal relationships/conflicts unless it directly affects the setup. I'd expect all the series spinning out of this to handle those chores.
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Sep 18, 2019 23:32
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Codependent Poster posted:House of and Powers are just setting up the status quo going forward. It's big broad strokes with some explanation put in here and there. I don't expect much time to be given to interpersonal relationships/conflicts unless it directly affects the setup. like, yeah, but it kinda makes for a flat, sometimes uninteresting read. i wish that they had just launched straight into this new status quo and have these details peppered out in books over time.
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Sep 18, 2019 23:38
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Yeaaaa so I thought the Inhumans were weird and cultish enough, but this now manages to out-cult them by miles.  I really do enjoy how Hickman continues to actually find cool ways for mutants to apply their powers to their cause, but it's everything else around their application that's just not making any sense. Did no one on that island watch Dollhouse? This isn't resurrection. This is still just cloning. I don't love the Maker theories, but at this point I do honestly expect Xavier to take off his helmet at the end and it's, like, Maximus or something. Parallax posted:the general lack of reaction to all the red flags is kind of making me.... bored. maybe it'll pay off by the end, but this whole thing feels like a self-indulgent exercise to explain the new status quo that lacks the character relationships that actually make the x-men interesting I now realize I just wrote some variation of "doesn't make sense" like six times in this post but that's genuinely my main takeaway from this issue. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Sep 18, 2019 |
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Sep 18, 2019 23:53
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BrianWilly posted:Did no one on that island watch Dollhouse? Did anyone?
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Sep 19, 2019 00:04
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Codependent Poster posted:House of and Powers are just setting up the status quo going forward. It's big broad strokes with some explanation put in here and there. I don't expect much time to be given to interpersonal relationships/conflicts unless it directly affects the setup. Chores??
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Sep 19, 2019 00:23
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Which reminds me, is there a big list for what new X-books are coming out of this yet?
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Sep 19, 2019 00:25
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Billzasilver posted:Which reminds me, is there a big list for what new X-books are coming out of this yet? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v34H9yKnpqc quote:X-MEN
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Sep 19, 2019 00:31
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Hmmmm so we should really only pay attention to the Hickman written books? X-Force sounds pretty dope.
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Sep 19, 2019 00:35
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Jiro posted:Hmmmm so we should really only pay attention to the Hickman written books? X-Force sounds pretty dope. Hickman's books will likely get the most sales, but I imagine the others will still be relevant.
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Sep 19, 2019 00:40
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I actually love the totally culty, vaguely sinister "off" vibe of the X-Men. When Apocalypse praises you, that's hosed up an order of magnitude higher than being on the same team as Magneto.
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Sep 19, 2019 01:02
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Jiro posted:Hmmmm so we should really only pay attention to the Hickman written books? X-Force sounds pretty dope. you should pay attention to whatever looks cool and not care about what "counts" or whatever
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Sep 19, 2019 01:07
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I’m looking forward to the one main book and Excalibur the most, personally speaking. And I wonder which team Monet will end up on, she’s been very prominent in this event already and as someone mentioned last page, we need to see if her old grudges or enemies lead to a big conflict.
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Sep 19, 2019 01:11
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My favourite part of the issue. We can create mutant bodies and bring them back. And even make them optimum bodies. Everyone can be at their peak age, in bodies that aren't damaged. Except you Scott. We are keeping you with that brain injury that prevents you from controlling your powers. It builds character. Edge & Christian posted:Proteus has come back/kind of come back a bunch of times between the original story and now. Also the original plan for Joseph when he showed up way back in the late 90's was he was supposed to be Proteus who had created a new body and given himself Magneto's powers (to protect himself from his weakness, metal.) but had forgotten who he was. Hench why Magneto referred to him as an abomination and why he had such unbridled hatred (for reasons he didn't understand) when he looked at Moria Mactarget.
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Sep 19, 2019 01:26
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Jiro posted:Hmmmm so we should really only pay attention to the Hickman written books? X-Force sounds pretty dope. i’m more interested in fallen angels, marauders, and excalibur than either hickman book right now
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Sep 19, 2019 01:33
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The Question IRL posted:My favourite part of the issue. It's not a brain injury, but it's because of all his childhood trauma. He did control them for a short time, but at this point in his life it's probably close to impossible. And then if you take away all that trauma, you're fundamentally changing who he is and that's not cool.
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Sep 19, 2019 01:47
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X Force is probably the one I'm least in, but I'll probably pick up the first issue at least.
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Sep 19, 2019 01:50
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Conversely I'm the most interested in X-Force, and would like to see how it compares to Simon Spurrier's run.
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Sep 19, 2019 02:11
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The Question IRL posted:Also the original plan for Joseph when he showed up way back in the late 90's was he was supposed to be Proteus who had created a new body and given himself Magneto's powers (to protect himself from his weakness, metal.) but had forgotten who he was. Hench why Magneto referred to him as an abomination and why he had such unbridled hatred (for reasons he didn't understand) when he looked at Moria Mactarget.
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Sep 19, 2019 03:19
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Codependent Poster posted:It's not a brain injury, but it's because of all his childhood trauma. He did control them for a short time, but at this point in his life it's probably close to impossible. And then if you take away all that trauma, you're fundamentally changing who he is and that's not cool. Well. I say "he" and "him," but it's not actually Cyclops, is it?
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Sep 19, 2019 04:18
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They made a big show about it being the same people so I'm guessing it's not. I bet when X implants them he can't help but shape them a little.
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Sep 19, 2019 04:30
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He;s just Xavier now. That whole X thing is done.
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Sep 19, 2019 04:53
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It's actually kind of difficult to overstate what Charles accomplishments would mean for the mutant population. I know it's a bit of a droll comparison to say the X-men are queer/minority coded, but as a queer person I can say that I can absolutely understand why the idea of Krakoa is so seductive. Speaking in very broad strokes, pretty much every single queer person lives in a society that otherizes them, and at best they live somewhere that accepts their otherness, and at worst..well you know. Even in the best case scenario we're constantly reminded that we're different from everyone else. We're practically non-existant in the culture around us, we're not the subject of love songs or the protagonists in block busters, we're an afterthought at best. Krakoa is a place where the others become the norm, where you're not an outsider looking in, where you are at the cultural centre. I recall the first time I went to a concert after Pride in brighton , and the feeling of liberation knowing everyone else was the same as you is impossible to describe, and it took me by surprise because I hadn't realized the extent to which I felt like an outsider in the society i was raised in. But more than that, Charles also gave them safety. They are beyond reprisal and punishment from bigots who wish to hurt them for simply being themselves. It's easy to see why they would be so fanatic in their devotion. BrianWilly posted:I liked the attention to detail wherein the Cyclops "husk" was in fact in control of his eyebeams and didn't have it blasting everywhere, but Xavier made sure to put on his visors first before implanting him with his memories again. That's the kind of question that causes a philosophical derail and questions along the lines of "what constitutes a self", but for all intents and purposes, if he has Cyclops memories and body, he is Cyclops. Now the interesting thing to see is what happens when you put Bubs mind in Cykes body and vice versa. Codependent Poster posted:It's not a brain injury, but it's because of all his childhood trauma. He did control them for a short time, but at this point in his life it's probably close to impossible. And then if you take away all that trauma, you're fundamentally changing who he is and that's not cool. I'm picturing Cyclops pulling an Illidan and yelling "BEHOLD, I AM MY OPTIC BLAST" and lasering Charles in the face.
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Sep 19, 2019 05:05
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I think I'm most interested in Fallen Angels. I'm interested in seeing what the mutants who aren't with the program will do. I hope it's old Cable though.
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Sep 19, 2019 05:41
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McCloud posted:That's the kind of question that causes a philosophical derail and questions along the lines of "what constitutes a self", but for all intents and purposes, if he has Cyclops memories and body, he is Cyclops. Now the interesting thing to see is what happens when you put Bubs mind in Cykes body and vice versa. This feels a little harder to justify in the Marvel universe where clones and souls are both known to exist. Like genuinely multiple X-Men have experience with the whole souls thing. Even if Professor X is putting their complete memories and knowledge into their heads perfectly, that just makes them Ben Reily, not Peter Parker. We're shown that clones can be revived so presumably they have their own souls but they also are distinctly different from the souls of the original. So unless Xavier has a soul transfer machine hooked up, the X-Men dead and he's just making new X-Clones each time.
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Sep 19, 2019 05:53
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What about if you believe in reincarnation? Then their souls reenter their bodies once Xavier transfers their essence into them. I think a difference is that a clone is of a still living person. Xavier doesn't resurrect a mutant until they're confirmed dead. It was also brought up about the ethics of putting another soul into a different husk, and maybe making another husk of a living mutant. I'm sure we're going to see both of those before Hickman is done. Codependent Poster fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Sep 19, 2019 |
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Sep 19, 2019 06:00
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things get awkward when confusion arises over Husk and which husk they mean. also when Peter Parker returns to teach again. Synthbuttrange fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Sep 19, 2019 |
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Sep 19, 2019 06:27
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ImpAtom posted:This feels a little harder to justify in the Marvel universe where clones and souls are both known to exist. Like genuinely multiple X-Men have experience with the whole souls thing. Even if Professor X is putting their complete memories and knowledge into their heads perfectly, that just makes them Ben Reily, not Peter Parker. I think this is one of those things where there is no right answer but the one you decide for yourself (or what the author decides)
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Sep 19, 2019 06:35
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I wonder if Jean seeming less mature is a result of her optimal age being less than adulthood. It wouldn't exactly explain why her personality was different, though . Good on Proteus for finally finding some buds. I also am wondering a lot about the villains, some of these dudes are pretty awful. I wonder if they're going to explore "in a utopia, even the irredeemable can be redeemed." Redeeming Emplate, yeah . . . pretty tall task. This makes me wonder if the M-Twins are there? Penance?
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Sep 19, 2019 07:26
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Edge & Christian posted:Where is this from? I've always heard he was just supposed to be an amnesiac Magneto so they could reset some of the more "genocidal old rear end in a top hat" bits that Morrison would later point out. Magneto would probably be kind of upset to see a clone of himself wandering around, and Magneto (or a semi-amnesiac clone) of him was pretty pissed at Moira in that time period too. I know it was a theory I heard thrown around in the Wizard days of comics. And I think I read it being confirmed in some internet interview in mid 2000's. I can't find it on a Google search. But I did find out that Proteus dad is Joseph McTagert, which might explain why he selects that name.
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Sep 19, 2019 07:56
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ImpAtom posted:We're shown that clones can be revived so presumably they have their own souls but they also are distinctly different from the souls of the original. So unless Xavier has a soul transfer machine hooked up, the X-Men dead and he's just making new X-Clones each time.
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Sep 19, 2019 08:38
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ImpAtom posted:So unless Xavier has a soul transfer machine hooked up, the X-Men dead and he's just making new X-Clones each time. House of X #6 ends with Magik walking in eating some chips and going "but what about the souls." Powers of X #6 is Xavier going "oh gently caress I forgot about the souls loving poo poo gently caress gently caress" for about 20 pages before smash cutting to another Moira life.
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Sep 19, 2019 09:01
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McCloud posted:It's actually kind of difficult to overstate what Charles accomplishments would mean for the mutant population. I know it's a bit of a droll comparison to say the X-men are queer/minority coded, but as a queer person I can say that I can absolutely understand why the idea of Krakoa is so seductive. Speaking in very broad strokes, pretty much every single queer person lives in a society that otherizes them, and at best they live somewhere that accepts their otherness, and at worst..well you know. Even in the best case scenario we're constantly reminded that we're different from everyone else. We're practically non-existant in the culture around us, we're not the subject of love songs or the protagonists in block busters, we're an afterthought at best. Krakoa is a place where the others become the norm, where you're not an outsider looking in, where you are at the cultural centre. I recall the first time I went to a concert after Pride in brighton , and the feeling of liberation knowing everyone else was the same as you is impossible to describe, and it took me by surprise because I hadn't realized the extent to which I felt like an outsider in the society i was raised in. But more than that, Charles also gave them safety. They are beyond reprisal and punishment from bigots who wish to hurt them for simply being themselves. It's easy to see why they would be so fanatic in their devotion. If somebody invited me to a secret community of queer people but we all had to cut ourselves off from the outside world, speak a secret esoteric language and vow unwavering allegiance to a shadowy, distant, and frequently sinister genius, I'd say no thanks, I already have an MFA. But really, I think the premise you're describing is quite different from the frankly really ominous and icky society that Krakoa actually seems to be on the page. Imagine a queer community that opened its doors to all abusers, all TERFs, all racists and misogynists, just because they fit under the broad rubric of queerness. I don't know if that's utopian so much as it is just naive and stupid. It certainly hasn't ever worked out well for any queer community I've ever been part of. It looks flat out predatory-- the term "cult" has been thrown around a lot in the last few pages of this thread, and I think that's because Hickman is explicitly making it seem like a cult.
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Sep 19, 2019 10:11
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The Question IRL posted:I know it was a theory I heard thrown around in the Wizard days of comics. And I think I read it being confirmed in some internet interview in mid 2000's. Ah, the Zaladane school of character relationships.
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Sep 19, 2019 10:24
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Content warning: discussion of suicide in relation to the Krakoa cloning process and Mutants being transgender. I can't look at the issue right now and I can't remember the detailed specifics on the info page enough for me to say anything definitive, but I am thinking that the cloning process could potentially explore some fascinating themes of identity, gender & sexuality with the resurrections and any potential modifications of the process. Would/should a Mutant choose to "die" and, say, change their gender or regain a lost limb? Would assisted suicide be ok in this instance, or does the "bandwidth" of the resurrections of the dead take precedence over the living? Regardless of a soul, can one retain a sense of self in a (re)grown body? The repercussions of repeated resurrections are currently unknown I believe, and the Marauders became distant as I recall, at least in instances. To what extent is Xavier messing with them? Again, Jean is the prime example here. (I hope that this isn't disrespectful thinking from a cisgender person re: suicide as I'm looking at it in the Krakoan context, but recognise the real-world incidences. Please do let me know if this is insensitive and I will remove it ASAP.) Metalshark fucked around with this message at 12:45 on Sep 19, 2019 |
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Sep 19, 2019 12:43
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What happens when they clone Moira, who has gone on to another life?
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Sep 19, 2019 12:50
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Nevvy Z posted:What happens when they clone Moira, who has gone on to another life? Woooahh
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Sep 19, 2019 12:55
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McCloud posted:It's actually kind of difficult to overstate what Charles accomplishments would mean for the mutant population. I know it's a bit of a droll comparison to say the X-men are queer/minority coded, but as a queer person I can say that I can absolutely understand why the idea of Krakoa is so seductive. Speaking in very broad strokes, pretty much every single queer person lives in a society that otherizes them, and at best they live somewhere that accepts their otherness, and at worst..well you know. Even in the best case scenario we're constantly reminded that we're different from everyone else. We're practically non-existant in the culture around us, we're not the subject of love songs or the protagonists in block busters, we're an afterthought at best. Krakoa is a place where the others become the norm, where you're not an outsider looking in, where you are at the cultural centre. I recall the first time I went to a concert after Pride in brighton , and the feeling of liberation knowing everyone else was the same as you is impossible to describe, and it took me by surprise because I hadn't realized the extent to which I felt like an outsider in the society i was raised in. But more than that, Charles also gave them safety. They are beyond reprisal and punishment from bigots who wish to hurt them for simply being themselves. It's easy to see why they would be so fanatic in their devotion. I'm not queer but I've had similar experiences with being othered and how that is paralleled by the X-Men. This is why I don't want to dismiss their behavior as cult-ish. I can see how it comes off that way, and it may very well turn out to be as such, but I can also see this being about what mutants start to feel and act like when they "belong", that they're safe, and working toward unity without worrying about integrating or forcing themselves to live and act by the rules and norms of people that are attempting to exterminate them. I'm sure some X-Men will see it differently and it will be explored in the upcoming books but I think Hickman is trying to show what happens when mutants are coming together in solidarity, embracing what makes them weird and different. There's definitely some kind of pod people vibe but I get the sense more that they're being "re-born" through community and collaboration. Anyway, on something I noticed: the conversation between Emma and Charles followed by offering a clean slate to all mutants reminds me of the end of Millar's Ultimate X-Men. We can argue about how successful Millar was but he was trying to establish that mutants should have radically different views on society, ethics, and morality as humans, especially when it comes to rehabilitation. I'm not the first to say this in the thread but want to throw in: it's definitely Pax Romana Hickman where he is exploring heavy world building /mythology and setting the status quo, where I'm sure it will be explored more in his main X-Men book and the other X-Books. The big brush setups aren't everyone's thing, I don't blame people for finding it a little boring but I love it. Seting the stage for new X-Books has me super excited for this and everything after. thin blue whine fucked around with this message at 13:11 on Sep 19, 2019 |
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Sep 19, 2019 13:07
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Does Moira's soul transfer with her upon death? I think there's a lot of good and deep-ish issues that Marvel can do with this franchise now that we've mostly been setup. Hickman tweeted that they've basically got 2 years planned out so I'm hoping that means delving into some of these questions. What happens if one of these villains kills a bunch of mutants and then dies? Do you resurrect a mass-murderer even if they're a mutant? Does Chuck decide whose worthy or what parts of their memory comes back? Someone joked about the weekly backups but I can see that as a good story as well; a lot can happen to a person in a week. What happens when someone is resurrected without critical memories? What if someone is killed just a day after falling in love with someone? That's hosed! Maybe on the Mothermold mission, Chuck was keeping constant backups of everyone, but that's not going to happen often. So resurrected people likely won't remember how they died! And that means they could be sent on suicide missions regularly and not necessarily ever know. Even on the Mothermold thing, unless Chuck was doing very quick updates, Wolvie and Kurt don't remember their wonderful last moments together. There's a lot to mine here! I'm still hung up on where's Moira in all this, though. I know that- again assuming this is X- she faked her death years ago and maybe showing up now would be weird, but she's being held back in the story for a reason and I'm dying to find out why.
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