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Ms Fuchi posted:Was your HS the setting for John Carpenter's The Thing? no, it was almost as far as you could possibly get from the thing while remaining on the planet. similar climate tho - polar bears instead of penguins.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:38
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I just can't see how negotiating a deal that the membership votes to campaign against doesn't lead to the brexit right angrily insisting Labour deliberately negotiated a bad deal as they never wanted to brexit and we can get better.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:39
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jabby posted:The idea of negotiating a deal you've already committed to campaigning against is dumb as gently caress, that's why everybody laughed at Thornberry when she tried to explain it on QT. Quoting this, but sorta covers a few posts on the subject - my understanding is that "Labour", as an entity, will not campaign one way or the other, they will attempt to negotiate the best exit deal they can, but leave the choice between the deal and remaining to individuals, whether that be voters, party members, or - in the case of people like Thornberry - MPs. It makes the most sense given Labour/Corbyn's consistent stance on a second referendum, and is good that none of today's composites passed that would scupper it. Though I agree if Corbyn himself chooses a side it then becomes difficult to separate the man from the party.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:40
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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It is possible to both intend to vote for labour and to also recognise that we live on a hell island of fucknobs who are hell bent on crashing into the largest solid object metaphorically. Plus the worst case scenario for the no hope crew is vindication. Do not become addicted to hope thread. It will take a hold of you and you will resent its absence.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:40
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Labour are now the only national party going into a GE backing a second referendum. If anyone's position is going to collapse under scrutiny, it's the Lib Dems. Their flagship policy is based around them winning a majority, which anyone with a brain knows won't happen, and they've gone all in attacking the two main parties when everyone knows they'll have to work with one of them.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:40
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ThomasPaine posted:I'm not so pessimistic for the following reasons. I'd add that the Lib Dems are being propped up on remain fanaticism alone, and once they get out under the spotlight there lack of policies or personalities should see it start bleeding away. Piers Morgan left Swinson speechless last week, anyone who knows what they're doing will absolutely demolish her.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:41
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Sanitary Naptime posted:I’m the other sort of Glaswegian one, yes that one. condolences on your heroin addiction OP
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Sep 23, 2019 19:42
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https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1176204960603811843
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Sep 23, 2019 19:44
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Labours policy of a 2nd referendum with Remain as an option seems like exactly what remainers would want? Why exactly does it matter what position Labour would support in the event of a 2nd Ref? Are they arguing that Corbyn is so all powerful that his support can single handedly swing the vote? I genuinely cannot understand what the problem is so many have with "we'll try to respect the results of the original vote by negotiating a deal but also basically give a do-over on the whole thing". Seems like the only thing that would satisfy the FBPEs is if Labour magically rewound time to 2010 when they didnt have to think about anything and even then theyd complain it wasnt done fast enough.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:45
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Like seriously how do you think a referendum which has consistently been phrased as a win for the people against the elites in power is going to be overturned by all the political parties saying "we're not doing it" except for boris johnson? How do you think that's going to work for labour to be chasing the lib dem position? How does that at all fit with the rest of their ideas about returning government to the welfare and control of the public? Even if they did manage to call it off, what do you think it's going to do for the long term viability of our system of government to do it that way? People are rightly loving annoyed that the government doesn't listen to them and you can't fix that by saying "that's right we don't" and declaring for yourself a mandate to do what the gently caress you want. If this is going to be reversed it has to be reversed on the same grounds it was started, and labour putting a referendum forward between a sane, functioning deal which allows the UK to continue working, and calling it all off, is the only credible solution. Not the lib dems idiot idea of remain vs no deal or just remain or whatever the gently caress they're making GBS threads on about now, and not the insane idea of just jumping off the drat cliff that the tories are doing. If you want to remain that's up to you to convince everyone else that it's the best course, not to sacrifice the labour party so you don't have to.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:45
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I compared the leader of the Labour party winning a democratic vote to the actions of Chinese leaders, why can't you see that was just a joke?
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Sep 23, 2019 19:46
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Hey you're all Nazis NO I was joking its not my fault you didn't get it
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Sep 23, 2019 19:47
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Sep 23, 2019 19:48
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Zero Gravitas posted:How are we all doing on this fine evening? And what do we make of all this stuff from the labour conference? Taking a position of neutrality = hosed for partisans now. OK. Bye, it doesn't look like we coudl possibly have had your vote anyway, do continue voting for the people who will willingly prop up the tories (who caused and want brexit) over any form of making things better.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:48
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Random Integer posted:Labours policy of a 2nd referendum with Remain as an option seems like exactly what remainers would want? Why exactly does it matter what position Labour would support in the event of a 2nd Ref? Are they arguing that Corbyn is so all powerful that his support can single handedly swing the vote? I genuinely cannot understand what the problem is so many have with "we'll try to respect the results of the original vote by negotiating a deal but also basically give a do-over on the whole thing". Seems like the only thing that would satisfy the FBPEs is if Labour magically rewound time to 2010 when they didnt have to think about anything and even then theyd complain it wasnt done fast enough. It's not about anything other than bashing Corbyn. Even if there's another conference and the party backs Remain, the fact that he 'had to be forced into it' will be used as justification for why Leave wins again.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:49
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Qwertycoatl posted:A second referendum that's a good-faith choice between remain and the best deal we can negotiate is our best hope of getting through this without horrible disaster and/or riots. It's a pity the media has decided it's too complicated to explain. This really grinds my gears. The media constantly bangs on about how nuance has been lose and it's all populism etc. etc. But when labour takes up a balanced position it's portrayed as being ambiguous or unclear. If you are being bloody minded it's actually a centerist position but galaxy o'brain could never say that or he would expose his own liberal bullshit as bullshit.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:51
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jabby posted:It's not about anything other than bashing Corbyn. see all the FBPEs who spent months if not years crying about how Labour should support a second referendum and now it's official policy it's "too little too late" he could do everything they're currently asking for and he'd still catch poo poo for not doing it well enough or soon enough or enthusiastically enough
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Sep 23, 2019 19:53
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has this analysis of Brexit as a re-ordering of Europe been posted. I admit I'm not sure I get all of it but some of it comes across as a bit barmy.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:54
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So let me get this straight Theres already been a vote where Labour has adopted this position of this maybe leave maybe not But now I'm also hearing that they're going to vote on a motion that any deal has to include freedom of movement Am I the only one here that can see that situation where it is absolutely insane to support a situation where we leave the EU, but still keep freedom of movement for some nebulous undefined quid pro quo in the future? Does no one else consider this would look like utter loving madness to your average non university educated voter?
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Sep 23, 2019 19:54
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Perfection
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Sep 23, 2019 19:56
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Rarity posted:This thread really needs to stop catastrophising This country needs to stop trending toward catastrophe first. Do you actually have any real faith that, if Labour don't have a majority after the next election, socialism will happen in our lifetime? And I don't mean weaksauce post-war consensus Keynesian welfare state, I mean socialism.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:56
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Leaving the EU while retaining freedom of movement would be "the only sane way to leave the EU" because freedom of movement is part and parcel of retaining membership of the single market, which is the whole reason we can't leave at the moment...forkboy84 posted:This country needs to stop trending toward catastrophe first. Socialism probably isn't happening within your lifetime whatever happens, the point is to do the best you can for the poor bastards who will follow you.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:57
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Random Integer posted:Labours policy of a 2nd referendum with Remain as an option seems like exactly what remainers would want? Why exactly does it matter what position Labour would support in the event of a 2nd Ref? Are they arguing that Corbyn is so all powerful that his support can single handedly swing the vote? I genuinely cannot understand what the problem is so many have with "we'll try to respect the results of the original vote by negotiating a deal but also basically give a do-over on the whole thing". Seems like the only thing that would satisfy the FBPEs is if Labour magically rewound time to 2010 when they didnt have to think about anything and even then theyd complain it wasnt done fast enough. I mean arguably a Brexit deal that defuses certain issues such as the border could make Brexit more inticing to voters previously turned to the "let's call it quits' camp through the sheer ineptitude of the Tory negotiations - ultimately if your key priority is mantainence of existing EU privelges you don't want a better deal inked as this minimises your leverage to push soft leavers towards remain over the bleak darkness of Boris vision.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:57
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Zero Gravitas posted:So let me get this straight your average non university educated voter doesn't even know the Labour conference is a thing that exists
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Sep 23, 2019 19:57
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OwlFancier posted:Leaving the EU while retaining freedom of movement would be "the only sane way to leave the EU" because freedom of movement is part and parcel of retaining membership of the single market, which is the whole reason we can't leave at the moment... What Julio Cruz posted:your average non university educated voter doesn't even know the Labour conference is a thing that exists The way this thing is going so far it's going to be put in its own theatre at the tory party conference with loving popcorn at the door.
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Sep 23, 2019 19:58
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What do you not get? The EU has made it very clear we can't have one of the four freedoms without the others, have you been living under a rock for the past three years?
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Sep 23, 2019 20:00
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jabby posted:Notably doesn't explain why it's a stitch-up or how Corbyn managed to control the delegates considering each CLP picks their own. Just that winning a vote by having more of your own side show up is an absolute affront to democracy now. Course it is. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle so to recognise this you must argue for the opposite of what you believe so convincingly that it gets more votes and you win morally. Just making one-sided good arguments might carry an a trite game of head counting but that's neither here nor there in a proper democracy like ours. What's more important is the optics, and that your shocking bias would be laid bare for all to see.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:00
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You don't expect us to believe you don't understand that you disingenuous twatwaffle. I understood just fine and i'm dumb as bricks.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:00
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It is really interesting to watch people who are all about moderation and compromise on things like stripping people of benefits and sending immigrants to camps suddenly start screaming that you have to pick a side, no compromises, when its an issue that affects them personally.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:01
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drat I didn't realise if you didn't go to university you couldn't understand basic politics like what a party conference is.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:01
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my degree in video games was central to my understanding of politics.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:02
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Jeremy Corbyn literally only wants one thing and it’s loving disgusting.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:04
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OwlFancier posted:What do you not get? The EU has made it very clear we can't have one of the four freedoms without the others, have you been living under a rock for the past three years? So you think that just because there's a motion to leave with a deal that includes fom, everything else is coming on a plate too?
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Sep 23, 2019 20:05
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njsykora posted:drat I didn't realise if you didn't go to university you couldn't understand basic politics like what a party conference is. It's true. I've never heard of them and the closest I got to university was going to a Glasgow Caley open day purely for the excuse of a daytrip to Glasgow being many times more fun than going to school.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:05
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You know, I'm a remainer, I voted remain and I wish the vote had never happened in the first place, but if Labour get the deal I think they can, I'm gonna be sorely loving tempted to vote for it over remain, partially because I think it's the only way to heal some of the divisions we've been seeing between leavers and the rest of us, and partly because I loving hate Fubpee-brainworm-Remain-At-All-Cost-ers.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:05
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Zero Gravitas posted:So you think that just because there's a motion to leave with a deal that includes fom, everything else is coming on a plate too? The entire point of labour's desire to renegotiate for the past two plus loving years has been to negotiate a deal that scraps the tory red lines such as no freedom of movement, in exchange for membership of the single market, which is necessary for the UK economy to continue functioning. How loving ignorant are you that you do not know this, have you literally not been paying any attention to anything???
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Sep 23, 2019 20:07
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It's funny, I was one of the first people in this thread to argue for a second referendum. Maybe the first, it was years ago. Because it was the only way you could reverse the disastrous decision without causing lots of unrest from people outraged that their democratic rights have been trampled on. And being on that tick while idiots like Stephen Kinnock were insisting we had to respect the decision apparently counts for nothing. I really do hate Fubpees every bit as much as I hate gammons.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:08
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Zero Gravitas posted:The way this thing is going so far it's going to be put in its own theatre at the tory party conference with loving popcorn at the door. great for them but if we're talking about "non-university educated voters" nothing that happens at any party conference has any relevance whatsoever
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Sep 23, 2019 20:09
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WhatEvil posted:You know, I'm a remainer, I voted remain and I wish the vote had never happened in the first place, but if Labour get the deal I think they can, I'm gonna be sorely loving tempted to vote for it over remain, partially because I think it's the only way to heal some of the divisions we've been seeing between leavers and the rest of us, and partly because I loving hate Fubpee-brainworm-Remain-At-All-Cost-ers. This is my mindset right now as well, with the EU moving more and more to the right it seems like there's a solid case for getting away from it and if we can retain the big ticket parts of involvement like free movement and trade that's a situation I'd be happy with. No guarantee they can get that kind of deal but it's also not out of the realm of possibility.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:09
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forkboy84 posted:It's funny, I was one of the first people in this thread to argue for a second referendum. Maybe the first, it was years ago. Because it was the only way you could reverse the disastrous decision without causing lots of unrest from people outraged that their democratic rights have been trampled on. And being on that tick while idiots like Stephen Kinnock were insisting we had to respect the decision apparently counts for nothing. It a natural human reaction to detest lib dems.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:09
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