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Sep 29, 2019 00:18
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Does anyone have access to any articles that go into depth examining the (previously secret) alliance between Israel and Saudi Arabia? I've seen a lot on cooperative efforts between the two over the last decade or so but very little as to the outer contours of their cooperation. Is it exclusively a product of the Netanyahu led goverments we've seen forever or is there something more substantial than hating Iran driving it?
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Sep 29, 2019 00:26
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that alliance predated Netanyahu , it has always been pretty secretive, we don't know much of anything about it.
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Sep 29, 2019 00:44
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it's only secretive in the sense that ksa and israel are both opaque (and totally so in the case of ksa). Everyone knows they're allied and more or less in complete geopolitical allignment for a long time now.
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Sep 29, 2019 01:07
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Grape posted:Also it gets its own green color to highlight their clean hands, while countries like Oman are left in mysterious light grey. Qatar is some oriental mystery country that BBC reporters have not visited in the past decade.
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Sep 29, 2019 01:22
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Grape posted:Also it gets its own green color to highlight their clean hands, while countries like Oman are left in mysterious light grey. Hey, Oman should be thankful they were even acknowledged that they exist unlike those troublemakers Qatar and Jordan.
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Sep 29, 2019 01:26
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hahaha saudis get captured by rebels. Watch the rebels execute them and sauds yelp "how could they do this" while watching reruns of the khashogg chainsaw massacre.
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Sep 29, 2019 01:43
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If the Houthis have captured a large number of Saudi troops I fully expect them to be completely abandoned and their existence denied by the Saudi Arabian authorities. That is the level of loyalty I think they have
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Sep 29, 2019 01:43
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:hahaha saudis get captured by rebels. Watch the rebels execute them and sauds yelp "how could they do this" while watching reruns of the khashogg chainsaw massacre. Post/username combo.
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Sep 29, 2019 01:55
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I am not surprised much that Saudi Arabia, a country whose entire government is run by various renditions of Futurama's Hedonism Bot, is getting clowned on in a head to head war.
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Sep 29, 2019 02:09
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I hope the Houthis focus their ire on any actual Saudis they caught and are merciful toward all the Sudanese children.
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Sep 29, 2019 02:17
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Helsing posted:I hope the Houthis focus their ire on any actual Saudis they caught and are merciful toward all the Sudanese children. doubtful seeing as how children die daily to saudi bombings i hope so too. but the outcome is going to be as grim as the circumstances around the conflict.
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Sep 29, 2019 02:22
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The thing is, I don’t want to jump to conclusions regarding these latest houthi claims until we see hard evidence, hard evidence as in video footage of the people speaking to the camera their name rank,etc. because saying “we captured hundreds of saudi soldiers” is a giant GIANT claim to make out of thin air and quite frankly if it’s true I really think it’s the death knell for saudis involvement in the war. But another part of me really can’t think of any way it should be feasible for that many Saudi soldiers to get captured all at once and then taken to Yemen without an immediate attempt to rescue them or any reconnaissance info warning of the danger or anything like that. How is a capture of that scale possible with all the technology and guns and American backing the Saudi military has?!?? It would have to be a historic level of mistake to have this happen. When was the last time an insurgent group managed a capture of this many well armed soldiers?? I guess we’ll find out tomorrow, under normal circumstances if this was true and they really did capture hundreds of saudi troops it would probably end MBS’s career but Arab dictators are never punished for their disastrous failures so I don’t think his position would be shaken.
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Sep 29, 2019 03:45
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Al-Saqr posted:The thing is, I don’t want to jump to conclusions regarding these latest houthi claims until we see hard evidence, hard evidence as in video footage of the people speaking to the camera their name rank,etc. because saying “we captured hundreds of saudi soldiers” is a giant GIANT claim to make out of thin air and quite frankly if it’s true I really think it’s the death knell for saudis involvement in the war. Arab dictatorships and monarchies have been historically militarily inept in the post WWII period. It would not be that surprising in my opinion. Just look at the Arab performances against Israel and Iraq's performance against Iran and in the Gulf War. They are hamstrung by rampant nepotism, factionalism, insane level of micromanagement and deliberate sabotage by the state in order to prevent a coup. It's why a rag tag rebel group like ISIS can run rough shod over them.
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Sep 29, 2019 03:56
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Charlz Guybon posted:Arab dictatorships and monarchies have been historically militarily inept in the post WWII period. It would not be that surprising in my opinion. Just look at the Arab performances against Israel and Iraq's performance against Iran and in the Gulf War. They are hamstrung by rampant nepotism, factionalism, insane level of micromanagement and deliberate sabotage by the state in order to prevent a coup. It's why a rag tag rebel group like ISIS can run rough shod over them. Literally thousands of Saudi soldiers being captured in one fell swoop inside of Saudi territory would still be enormously surprising; the Houthis don't have the resources that ISIS had, and Saudi Arabia has far more foreign backing than Iraq did. I'm gonna have to see actual videos and photos before I believe this.
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Sep 29, 2019 04:48
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Charlz Guybon posted:Arab dictatorships and monarchies have been historically militarily inept in the post WWII period. It would not be that surprising in my opinion. Just look at the Arab performances against Israel and Iraq's performance against Iran and in the Gulf War. They are hamstrung by rampant nepotism, factionalism, insane level of micromanagement and deliberate sabotage by the state in order to prevent a coup. It's why a rag tag rebel group like ISIS can run rough shod over them. I mean neither side really stood out in that war, except the Iranians had both the advantages and disadvantages of going through a revolution. Mostly it was just both sides throwing hundreds of thousands of soldiers into a conflict which grew ever more to resemble WW1 trench warfare as the war went on, except kind of without the actual innovations and developments that would eventually be put to practice in WW1.
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Sep 29, 2019 05:23
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the saudi pow's will be paraded on television in a few hours. hopefully they have a twitch stream
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Sep 29, 2019 06:47
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When they say Saudi soldiers, do they mean broke teenage slave-mercenaries, or actual citizens? Could there be failson officers amongst the captured troops?
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Sep 29, 2019 06:53
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Randarkman posted:I mean neither side really stood out in that war, except the Iranians had both the advantages and disadvantages of going through a revolution. Mostly it was just both sides throwing hundreds of thousands of soldiers into a conflict which grew ever more to resemble WW1 trench warfare as the war went on, except kind of without the actual innovations and developments that would eventually be put to practice in WW1.
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Sep 29, 2019 07:09
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Al-Saqr posted:The thing is, I don’t want to jump to conclusions regarding these latest houthi claims until we see hard evidence, hard evidence as in video footage of the people speaking to the camera their name rank,etc. because saying “we captured hundreds of saudi soldiers” is a giant GIANT claim to make out of thin air and quite frankly if it’s true I really think it’s the death knell for saudis involvement in the war. The Saudi military is inept as gently caress. It wouldn't be surprising if those troops just waved the white flag as soon as the shooting started. Their morale is probably non-existent.
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Sep 29, 2019 07:13
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Isn't the Saudi army mostly conscripts anyway?
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Sep 29, 2019 07:21
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Charlz Guybon posted:The Iranians were massively outgunned and were seriously underequipped in almost every way. Their performance under the circumstances was very impressive. The Iranians weren't being (as) actively and openly supported, but they had plenty of arms actually, courtesy of the massive military spending and foreign aid during the Shah's rule. They weren't as poorly equipped as is sometimes stated, on the rare occasion people even remember this war was a thing. Iraq had a superiority in armor, which they mostly squandered when their offensive petered out in the first two years, and they used chemical weapons, mostly to terrorize civilians and such, their military effectiveness was more limited. Both sides actively employed irregular and paramilitary forces, though the Iranians are perhaps more famous for doing so, but the Iraqis also did, actively fighting alongside and arming MEK forces for instance. After the first two years, when the Iraqis were fighting on Iranian territory, they pretty much lost the initiative completely and the rest of the war mostly persisted of fighting back and forth, with the Iranians mostly being the ones capable of launching offensives, for minimal gains alongside the border. The father of someone (Iraqi Kurd) I went to school with actually fought on the Iraqi side in the war, and as he described it it was mostly just static trench warfare with intermittent mortar bombardment, sniping and occasional trading with the enemy (the Iraqis had food, the Iranians had water, or it was the other way around). Vincent Van Goatse posted:Isn't the Saudi army mostly conscripts anyway? That doesn't really say anything about their quality. Conscripts can be perfectly well-trained and effective soldiers. Saudi Arabia has conscription but I also think I've read that the Saudi military has serious manpower issues and most services and units are, as a rule, severly undermanned to the point where they are almost incapable of carrying out their day-to-day functions. I'm not sure exactly what the cause of this is, but it's likely a combination of corruption, institutional weakness, a top-heavy structure and probably draft dodging and service exemptions (or people just buying their way out). Randarkman fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Sep 29, 2019 |
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Sep 29, 2019 07:26
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Tree Bucket posted:When they say Saudi soldiers, do they mean broke teenage slave-mercenaries, or actual citizens? Could there be failson officers amongst the captured troops? almost certainly, in regards to officers. the official statement is that they have several high-ranking officers, which means full-bird and up
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Sep 29, 2019 07:49
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weird question, but are there any hot takes from the early-mid 80's about supporting iraq against iran for leftist reasons?
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Sep 29, 2019 07:51
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i say swears online posted:weird question, but are there any hot takes from the early-mid 80's about supporting iraq against iran for leftist reasons? I haven't really heard of any myself I believe. Though back in the 80s I think most of the leftists you'd find given to hot takes would be of the Maoist variety, and they typically kind of despised the Soviet Union, which supported Iraq together with the US, Saudi Arabia and others. Really if you look the foreign supporters of the two sides in that war it really seems all kinds of weird at first glance. On the Iranian side you have Israel, Libya, Syria and North Korea (you could maybe throw in Turkey as well, because although they espoused neutrality they refused to support the arms blockade against Iran and, though it might not have been mostly arms, Turkey did massively increase its trade with Iran during the period).
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Sep 29, 2019 07:59
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Randarkman posted:I haven't really heard of any myself I believe. Though back in the 80s I think most of the leftists you'd find given to hot takes would be of the Maoist variety, and they typically kind of despised the Soviet Union, which supported Iraq together with the US, Saudi Arabia and others. Really if you look the foreign supporters of the two sides in that war it really seems all kinds of weird at first glance. On the Iranian side you have Israel, Libya, Syria and North Korea (you could maybe throw in Turkey as well, because although they espoused neutrality they refused to support the arms blockade against Iran and, though it might not have been mostly arms, Turkey did massively increase its trade with Iran during the period). A few months ago I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions tell me that's true, but the facts and evidence tell me it is not. edit wait, what support did israel give iran during the war? that's fascinating
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Sep 29, 2019 08:12
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No matter now much you believe the Houthis are supermen on the battlefield and the Saudis are inept, the loss of a quarter of the entire Saudi army in a single engagement has not happened. Maybe some officers from three different brigades were captured but not three brigades killed or captured.
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Sep 29, 2019 08:20
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i say swears online posted:edit wait, what support did israel give iran during the war? that's fascinating It's not that exciting really as far as I can tell, just the normal thing of Israel being a wild card and at the time being more concerned about Iraq than Iran. They sold them arms, supposedly with the consent of the US in the early 80s at least during the time when the Iraqis were still on Iranian territory and were beginning their counterattack. That's atleast what's been disclosed.
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Sep 29, 2019 08:26
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CeeJee posted:No matter now much you believe the Houthis are supermen on the battlefield and the Saudis are inept, the loss of a quarter of the entire Saudi army in a single engagement has not happened. Maybe some officers from three different brigades were captured but not three brigades killed or captured. Yeah it seems unbelievable. I'm honestly wondering if anything has been lost in translation or if the Houthis are actually claiming thousands captured. Is there any primary source on this?
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Sep 29, 2019 08:56
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Redmark posted:Yeah it seems unbelievable. I guess a clue might be that Saudi units are known to typically be glaringly understrength. Which might also explain how this attack could have succeeded (and lots of other Saudi blunders such as the the high ranking officers who have been killed in action) in that the Saudis are taking units that do not have their full complement of manpower, with the result that they are largely ineffective and incapable of operating as they should.
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Sep 29, 2019 09:04
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Are we sure it’s thousands captured, or more like thousands are some combination of captured/killed/deserted/scattered?
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Sep 29, 2019 09:22
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With the incompetence shown by some saudi commanders in footage from the front lines I can see them also loving up the rear to the extent they get supply lines in peril and whoops, the poorly led and largely pressganged forces now lack food/fuel/water/munitions too and surrender or flee rather than suffer then die. Requires zero supermen to pull off, a competent militia force with the help of a state well practiced in such fights will do the job just fine.
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Sep 29, 2019 09:41
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I saw a guy on another forum say the translation was off and it was 3 brigades of auxiliaries and one Saudi regiment. No idea if that's true, but it seems more plausible than 3 Saudi brigades
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Sep 29, 2019 09:41
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Charlz Guybon posted:I saw a guy on another forum say the translation was off and it was 3 brigades of auxiliaries and one Saudi regiment. Is 'auxiliaries' what they call their child slave soldiers? I mean sure, I can see that. But short of watching them paraded and literally counting every one of them that passes on the screen, yea...the trustworthiness of either side is questionable at best and I doubt we'll know for sure.
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Sep 29, 2019 09:45
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CrazyLoon posted:Is 'auxiliaries' what they call their child slave soldiers? If they really captured that many, wouldn't they show them off like that?
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Sep 29, 2019 09:51
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By the way, I'm not seeing an official Saudi denial of this claim anywhere. Have you? If they didn't get crushed, surely they'd at least play down the reports somewhat.
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Sep 29, 2019 10:02
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There have been some stories on how Saudi officers all want to be generals so there are way more Brigadier Generals then there are brigades and far smaller units then what is normally regarded as a brigade are called as such. In a similar vein, the IRGC has lost 12 Brigadier Generals in Syria. CeeJee fucked around with this message at 10:28 on Sep 29, 2019 |
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Sep 29, 2019 10:24
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Randarkman posted:That doesn't really say anything about their quality. Conscripts can be perfectly well-trained and effective soldiers. Yes, but we're talking about the loving Saudi army. They're neither well-trained nor effective, and that's been deliberate policy because a functional army is a potential danger to the House of Saud. This is not a recipe for good morale among conscripts.
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Sep 29, 2019 10:29
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Speaking of the Iran-Iraq war why was Syria supporting Iran? Didn’t the Iraqies send several divisions to save their rear end in the Yom Kippur war?
Solaris 2.0 fucked around with this message at 11:07 on Sep 29, 2019 |
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Sep 29, 2019 10:45
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the 60's-70's split in arab nationalism into whatever sectarian stuff that came after is a total black hole in my education, it'd be neat to learn more
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Sep 29, 2019 11:01
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