|
Relentless posted:I am not a scientist, but offhand they've got a pretty small sample size, and they're not measuring how much of smokeless/smoked tobacco is used. It's also just a single study, so... I'm sure as gently caress not gonna take up chew because of that paper. Agreed pretty much across the board. I think the point is that compared to cigarettes the rates of disease are much lower even if you err on the side of them being riskier than some think.
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2019 20:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 18:41 |
|
|
the real reason you shouldn't use tobacco chew is it's loving disgusting and people who casually spit tobacco chew spit wherever they want and not into the trash, toilet, or their own personal disposal container should be put in a woodchipper.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2019 20:41
|
|
|
Captain Invictus posted:the real reason you shouldn't use tobacco chew is it's loving disgusting and people who casually spit tobacco chew spit wherever they want and not into the trash, toilet, or their own personal disposal container should be put in a woodchipper. Also true
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2019 21:03
|
|
|
My granddad was a chewer and was fed into a leaf mulcher, so can confirm
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2019 21:06
|
|
|
I'm not sure what to say beyond most of this is wrong. Yes, chew tobaccos are carcinogenic (there's a whole market out there for pro-tobacco research funded through industry proxies, especially in the UK). Banning and regulating things does reduce usage, and no, argument from futility on substance bans is not valid; It's no better than the Bors gun cartoon. Policies to limit access and create barriers to market do in fact shift norms and reduce use, and that's good even if (if) reduction to near zero is impossible. When you drive something underground, fewer people do it. Tobacco comm practices are one of the core areas of the health communication literature at this point, and there's a whole subsystem of stigma research that revolves around the methods (and ethics) of antitobacco stigmatization campaigns. E-cigs were promulgated by the tobacco industry because they were looking for a bolthole after it became clear that they were going to start to lose their ability to market to kids. The reason for the rocketing rates of use is because there was a) a massive push by industry into normalizing the field and preventing regulation, and b) there was, with very little time, a whole intermediary market of addicts and sellers who aided and facilitated that spread. The persistent demand you're referring to is addiction, and is the primary reason the public health community is so united in their hate for nicotine, which is a really addictive substance. That so many people "like" it so much is the reason it so urgently needs to be addressed.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 01:46
|
|
|
The president is coming to Minneapolis. Don’t expect a warm welcome from city officials. bizjournals.com/Sep 27, 2019 '“Under ordinary circumstances, it would be an honor to welcome a sitting President of the United States to Minneapolis and to showcase all our city has to offer on the national stage. But these aren’t ordinary circumstances,” Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey said in a statement released shortly after the rally was announced.' A new Senate report is the latest threat to NRA’s tax-exempt status — and maybe its survival vox.com/September 28, 2019 "Some experts believe if the NRA loses its tax-exempt status, it will be forced to shut down. Leaders of the National Rifle Association (NRA) traveled to Moscow using NRA funds, according to a new Senate report, raising the question of whether the organization broke laws governing nonprofit spending. If the association did in fact break those laws, it could lose its tax-exempt status — and according to a former IRS official, without its tax-exempt status the NRA could be forced to shut down." Austrian elections: support for far-right collapses theguardian.com/29 Sep 2019 "Support for Austria’s Freedom party (FPÖ) has plunged by more than a third as voters punished the far-right group in national elections for a corruption scandal that brought down the government." Fresh wave of climate strikes takes place around the world theguardian.com/27 Sep 2019 "Hundreds of thousands hit streets across continents to demand action on climate" Teen girls strike for global action on climate change nbcnews.com/Sept. 15, 2019 "“The world is watching us,” said Isabelle Axelsson, 18, who has skipped class weekly to march with Fridays for Future in Stockholm." Greta Thunberg meets Trudeau, tells him he's not doing enough to fight climate change cbc.ca/Sep 27, 2019 "Swedish climate activist Greta Thunberg told Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau today he's not doing enough to protect the environment from the threat of runaway climate change." Irish far-right National Party leader doused with milkshake during event in Galway irishpost.com/September 30, 2019 "The National Party opposes immigration and abortion rights and seeks to reform the Irish criminal justice system and introduce the death penalty to Ireland. Members of the party dispersed after a milkshake was thrown at Mr Barrett, who is the leader of the National Party."
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 02:01
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:I'm not sure what to say beyond most of this is wrong. Yes, chew tobaccos are carcinogenic (there's a whole market out there for pro-tobacco research funded through industry proxies, especially in the UK). Banning and regulating things does reduce usage, and no, argument from futility on substance bans is not valid; It's no better than the Bors gun cartoon. Policies to limit access and create barriers to market do in fact shift norms and reduce use, and that's good even if (if) reduction to near zero is impossible. When you drive something underground, fewer people do it. Tobacco comm practices are one of the core areas of the health communication literature at this point, and there's a whole subsystem of stigma research that revolves around the methods (and ethics) of antitobacco stigmatization campaigns. Glad you're on board banning cigarettes then. quote:E-cigs were promulgated by the tobacco industry because they were looking for a bolthole after it became clear that they were going to start to lose their ability to market to kids. This is a lie. Pretty sure you've been called out on that before too. Most of the "industry" popped up long before any major investment in Juul or other e-cig manufacturers. The flavors were all consumer driven from the beginning. Once people were able to find something they liked they started bottling and selling it which is why there are like a thousand liquid companies around the country and none of them outside of the pod systems have any affiliation with BT. Almost all of the devices were consumer driven too. The whole reason something is called a "mod" is because people were literally pulling things apart and building devices themselves. Juul itself wasn't even founded by big tobacco, they were just what Altria latched onto once they realized they couldn't break into the market themselves. Altria/PMI getting involved is a massive loving problem, but misconstruing the facts about it just makes you look like an rear end so I'm not sure why you keep doing it. quote:The reason for the rocketing rates of use is because there was a) a massive push by industry into normalizing the field and preventing regulation, and b) there was, with very little time, a whole intermediary market of addicts and sellers who aided and facilitated that spread. This isn't accurate. I can't think of anyone involved in vaping that want little or no regulation. Everyone wants to know what they are getting is legit and safe. People started switching and it worked for them. My parents and brother among them. The reason kids started using them was because of nic salts and how easy it was to conceal a pod system, which is why most people hate on Juul. quote:The persistent demand you're referring to is addiction, and is the primary reason the public health community is so united in their hate for nicotine, which is a really addictive substance. That so many people "like" it so much is the reason it so urgently needs to be addressed. Agreed. The problem is the current main source of nicotine is killing people by the hundreds of thousands. The desire to keep people from using nicotine in a much less harmful form makes zero loving sense. The current push for vaping to be banned is not going to help that for a few reasons. The first is that a lot of people who quit via vaping might turn back to combustible tobacco which we know kills people. Regardless of your stance on ecigs and vaping I'm sure you'd agree you would rather have an addict using the lesser evil than going back to tobacco. The second, and much bigger problem now than it was before, is that the framework being set up right now is going to effectively allow "big tobacco" to have complete control over the vaping market come next year. Getting FDA approval for flavors and devices through the PMTA process is going to cost a fortune and a lot of the smaller (In comparison to Altria) companies aren't going to be able to afford it. That means pretty much the only game in town are going to be the tobacco companies that can afford to push their products through the approval process (Like they just did with IQOS/heat not burn) and effectively shut out all competition. What's ironic is that people have been sending in information about liquids and devices for a while and the FDA has just been sitting on it offering no guidance for what these companies should do. It was only recently that any meaningful information was given out. So that's where we are headed at the moment and for some reason the people who hate "big tobacco" are celebrating it. If things stand as they do now the only companies that will have a stake in vaping will be big tobacco companies and they'll have free reign to do pretty much whatever the gently caress they want once the dust settles. A sensible policy would be to ban cigarettes entirely and make vaping available from 21+ stores the same way some states regulate ABC laws. Set up a process for companies to submit their liquids for review the same way they do in the UK where their equivalent of the FDA tests them and gives them an approval or not. That would make too much sense though! On Terra Firma fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Oct 1, 2019 |
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 03:14
|
|
|
As I've explained previously, the vast majority of the vaping industry is owned by tobacco companies. Tobacco companies intentionally cultivated a middle market of vape shops and distributors precisely because it would create a political constituency that would make regulation more difficult, provide cover, and accelerate market penetration (read: get more addicts). As I have also already explained, the industry sued FDA specifically to block them from regulating e-cigarettes as smoking cessation devices because the industry does not want to be evaluated under a harm reduction calculus. Given the increase in the number of people using nicotine products, it's really not hard to see why; they don't pass the same muster that is passed by actual, regulated, legitimate smoking cessation products. I really don't care about your individual anecdotes; they are not a justification for increased broader exposure to nicotinic products. There is a reason Gottlieb and so much of the medical community is opposed to these products. You should try to give further thought to why this is the case.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 04:38
|
|
|
Captain Invictus posted:the real reason you shouldn't use tobacco chew is it's loving disgusting and people who casually spit tobacco chew spit wherever they want and not into the trash, toilet, or their own personal disposal container should be put in a woodchipper. As someone who has commuted with dippers before, even if you have your own receptacle (old water bottle, Gatorade bottle, *shiver* coffee cup) ... no, gently caress you (not you, Cap'n). That poo poo is disgusting and I hated every time I've ever seen someone spit into a bottle. Otteration posted:A new Senate report is the latest threat to NRA’s tax-exempt status — and maybe its survival Good. The destruction of these organizations is more than I could hope for. Not really, it's the least society could do for itself. But it's still good to hear about.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 04:54
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:As I've explained previously, the vast majority of the vaping industry is owned by tobacco companies. Tobacco companies intentionally cultivated a middle market of vape shops and distributors precisely because it would create a political constituency that would make regulation more difficult, provide cover, and accelerate market penetration (read: get more addicts). You can keep asserting that this is true, but up until late 2018 the overwhelming majority of vape companies had zero ties with the tobacco industry. Hell, Juul is only partially owned by Altria and that only took place in Dec of 2018. Vape shops have never been a vehicle for big tobacco. It just shows how little you actually know about the subject when you trot this stuff out. gently caress even now most of it isn't owned by any tobacco companies. Go check any online retailer and you'd be hard pressed to find anything BT related anywhere. quote:As I have also already explained, the industry sued FDA specifically to block them from regulating e-cigarettes as smoking cessation devices because the industry does not want to be evaluated under a harm reduction calculus. Vape companies have been clamoring for the FDA to give them guidance on this. They want to be regulated and the vast majority of users want the products regulated the same way they are in the UK! quote:Given the increase in the number of people using nicotine products, it's really not hard to see why; they don't pass the same muster that is passed by actual, regulated, legitimate smoking cessation products. There have been plenty of studies done in the last year or two that show they have double the effectiveness of traditional NRT. quote:There is a reason Gottlieb and so much of the medical community is opposed to these products. You should try to give further thought to why this is the case. The medical community in the US is opposed to it in principle, but they still say it's considerably safer. In the UK and elsewhere they've embraced it and it's showing dramatic results, especially in the UK where smoking rates have dropped off considerably and youth rates have actually been going down. They even have vape shops set up in hospitals! I fail to see how that isn't the ideal model to follow at the moment. Oddly enough Gottlieb and I are in agreement about a lot of this: https://twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD/status/1175098888472023040 https://twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD/status/1173558532521811968 The pod systems, as I've repeatedly said, are the thing that's driving the surge in youth vaping. That's why I and many others have no problem turbo-loving Juul out of the market. Banning everything and letting what comes out of the PMTA process is going to have the opposite effect. Juul will be the only one standing. That seems to be what you and I both think are bad so I'm curious as to why you feel the need to just make poo poo up along the way. On Terra Firma fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Oct 1, 2019 |
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 04:57
|
|
|
If we end up banning weed vapes and keeping all guns im loving done with this country.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 05:15
|
|
|
You're embarrassing yourself at this point. W-cigarette consolidation through tobacco proxies was pretty much immediate- which is not surprising given that tobacco companies had been developing precursors to the electronic cigarette for years at that point. E-cigarettes were always envisioned as a regulatory bolthole. Early e-cigarette groups, with ties and funding from tobacco companies, sued to have their devices classified as tobacco products and not drug delivery products. This case (joined by multiple other tobacco-funded organizations, including the Washington Legal Foundation, which basically guarantees it's evil) took until 2010 to resolve, creating a generation of users, and the whole point of its resolution was that e-cigs could not make theraputic claims. Because the companies could not support those claims. Gottlieb has taken his current position because despite all the good he did, he's still a Republican who's now a fellow at the goddamn American Enterprise Institute.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 05:34
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:You're embarrassing yourself at this point. W-cigarette consolidation through tobacco proxies was pretty much immediate- which is not surprising given that tobacco companies had been developing precursors to the electronic cigarette for years at that point. Pretty rich coming from you. Tobacco companies had little to zero involvement in the industry early on. I can't think of a single product in the last 8-9 years that they sold in mass that people bought. They tried to develop their own products which repeatedly failed in the face of what was sold in vape shops by smaller companies. There are too many small companies releasing new devices, tanks, liquids, coils, etc. Tobacco companies were never nimble enough to meet consumer demand so they had to buy their way into the party like they did with Juul. People were using pens with ego tanks and unregulated mech mods that became regulated over time. None of that had anything to do with tobacco companies. They developed none of it! None! To claim that they've been involved and major players in the industry since the beginning is such an absolute lie. It's gas lighting. quote:Early e-cigarette groups, with ties and funding from tobacco companies, sued to have their devices classified as tobacco products and not drug delivery products. Please share this list of tobacco groups/companies that somehow sued and bent the arm of the FDA to classify them as tobacco products. quote:Gottlieb has taken his current position because despite all the good he did, he's still a Republican who's now a fellow at the goddamn American Enterprise Institute. Weird of you to shift the goal posts here because you brought him up and said I should heed his warnings, not me. Also is the UK being bought and sold by big tobacco? Is all their research just some giant attempt at fooling everyone? Has PMI infiltrated Kings college and the royal collage of physicians? Public Health England? Would you consider their stagnant/falling youth use rate a success or failure on their part? Any comments on how the products are regulated successfully over there? Are they doing it wrong?
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 06:08
|
|
|
Funny you should mention PMI, as they currently have a 1 billion dollar program to fund studies that will find things useful in helping people quit smoking.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 06:28
|
|
|
JazzFlight posted:Not to start a huge tobacco derail, but
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 07:09
|
|
|
My apologies, I hadn't realized it was On Terra Firma.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 11:52
|
|
|
You guys are worse than vapers who stand directly next to the door of a busy building. Go make a thread tho it would probably be interesting.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 15:19
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:You guys are worse than vapers who stand directly next to the door of a busy building. I legitimately cannot stand most people who vape to be honest. Especially the younger cloud chasing type. I can create a thread at some point about harm reduction in general though. I'd be interesting seeing people twist themselves in knots over blood pressure medication, needle exchanges, and condoms too.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 15:30
|
|
|
I wouldn't define this as ”good” news per se but that Dallas cop who shot a black guy in his own apartment because she thought it was hers was just convicted of murder. https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/10/01/amber-guyger-police-officer-who-shot-man-death-his-apartment-found-guilty-murder/
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 17:07
|
|
|
A cop facing actual consequences for murdering a dude sitting in his living room with a bowl of icecream is unambiguously good, hth
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 17:44
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:A cop facing actual consequences for murdering a dude sitting in his living room with a bowl of icecream is unambiguously good, hth Nah, because we still live in the world where the cop did that.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 17:55
|
|
|
Better than living in a world where she murders and gets off light with just a new job search.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 17:59
|
|
|
While it's undeniably a good thing that she got convicted, I'd like to see one of the white male chud cops get convicted of something, ever. It's always the tokens who get fed to the wolves as a peace offering.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 19:14
|
|
|
mistaya posted:While it's undeniably a good thing that she got convicted, I'd like to see one of the white male chud cops get convicted of something, ever. It's always the tokens who get fed to the wolves as a peace offering. Chicago already did that for you, but the officer got a light sentence.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 19:23
|
|
|
mistaya posted:While it's undeniably a good thing that she got convicted, I'd like to see one of the white male chud cops get convicted of something, ever. It's always the tokens who get fed to the wolves as a peace offering. A white woman cop shooting a black male immigrant and getting charged and convicted seems less likely then if it was a dude.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 20:13
|
|
|
Holding my jubilee for sentencing
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 20:48
|
|
|
mistaya posted:I'd like to see one of the white male chud cops get convicted of something, ever. It's always the tokens who get fed to the wolves as a peace offering. the gently caress? you don't think they circled the wagons on this bitch just as hard, if not harder, then any male cop? Hell, the goddamn judge gave the jury instructions on how to clear her of all accountability by telling the jury to consider castle doctrine. Getting a conviction on a white female cop is just fine, trust me. ACAB. Also, how the death penalty isn't on the table for her is amazing. That is goddamn TEXAS and she committed home invasion and murder.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 23:19
|
|
|
Zipperelli. posted:Hell, the goddamn judge gave the jury instructions on how to clear her of all accountability by telling the jury to consider castle doctrine. In most readings of this beyond lazy journalists hoping to get outraged clicks, the judge was ensuring the probable murder charge by the jury wouldn't be subsequently overruled on appeal with a castle doctrine defense. this hastily googled article sums up a lot of what i'd been hearing. https://newsone.com/playlist/judge-tammy-kemp-praised-amber-guyger-murder/ Along with https://twitter.com/jdmiles11/status/1176493386452410369 papa horny michael fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Oct 1, 2019 |
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 23:29
|
|
|
papa horny michael posted:In most readings of this beyond lazy journalists hoping to get outraged clicks, the judge was ensuring the probable murder charge by the jury wouldn't be subsequently overruled on appeal with a castle doctrine defense. Broken clock and all that. She also allowed a juror to stay after that juror confessed to having a relationship with a witness for both sides. I'm not saying she actively tried to get the cop off, I'm just saying that she gave the jury every possible chance to be tainted. Regardless, ACAB and the cop can burn for all I care.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2019 23:35
|
|
|
Whistleblower’s attorney reminds Trump that retaliation against his accuser is a federal crime occupydemocrats.com/September 30, 2019 "The only thing more dangerous than a criminal afraid of being caught is one who has already been fingered, has yet to be convicted, and knows the identity of his accuser." The irony of Trump demanding to meet his accuser, explained vox.com/Sep 30, 2019 "There are almost two dozen women who have gone on record with accusations." Setting foot off church property could mean being permanently separated from her children—so Ingrid Encalada Latorre gave birth to her daughter in the rec room. thedailybeast.com/09.30.19 "Two weeks ago, Latorre gave birth to her daughter in the recreation room of a Colorado church where she has claimed sanctuary since December 2017—the safest place to do so, she said, when stepping off of church property could mean being permanently separated from her children." Jimmy Carter, the oldest living former US president, is 95 today cnn.com/October 1, 2019 People Filed Complaints About Stray Cat Roaming Around Law Firm So They Hired Him unilad.co.uk/26 Sep 2019 "Leon was just like any other stray cat – roaming the streets, looking for scraps. One day, he walked into the Order of Attorneys of Brazil building, and his life changed." UK, so YMMV.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2019 02:19
|
|
|
everything is hell but who's a good kitty? yes you are. yes you ARE hired. a higher wage than my maid
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2019 03:21
|
|
|
Boomers were right, just show up to the job you want and get hired on the spot through sheer pluck.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2019 04:40
|
|
|
HootTheOwl posted:Boomers were right, just show up to the job you want and get hired on the spot through sheer pluck. Must be a white cat.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2019 11:16
|
|
|
lemonadesweetheart posted:Must be a white cat. Man, black cats face racism too, don't they?
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2019 13:35
|
|
|
OddObserver posted:Man, black cats face racism too, don't they? They're defined as unlucky and evil, when in reality it's all cats.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2019 13:40
|
|
|
On Terra Firma posted:The pod systems, as I've repeatedly said, are the thing that's driving the surge in youth vaping. That's why I and many others have no problem turbo-loving Juul out of the market. Banning everything and letting what comes out of the PMTA process is going to have the opposite effect. Juul will be the only one standing. I think easily half the problem is the ape-brains who think you should be getting tremendous clouds of smoke out of a smoke-free device. Every single time you see someone exhale a giant cloud of vapor, they are doing it wrong. (Unless they were like a 3-pack-a-day smoker trying to wean themselves off, but you get the idea). You can administer a vaporized dose of enough nicotine for the average smoker in a tiny dose that generates little to no visible vapor. ...but that wouldn't sell to knuckle-draggers and kids. Some of that you can regulate (advertising, contents) but some of that is pure social consciousness-raising and shaming. I think it would do the world a great favor if we could just all agree to shame the poo poo out of people who vape like we did public smokers. We got out of the habit after smoking bans were so successful, we're too surprised to react anymore.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2019 14:31
|
|
|
When I bought my current rig, the rear end in a top hat running our local vape shop kept going on and on about giant clouds when all I wanted was a smooth mouth-to-lung replacement for smoking paper cigarettes. He seemed legit concerned about my manhood when I insisted on an MTL tank and a low nic e-juice.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2019 16:16
|
|
|
I started a thread about vaping in D&D so nobody gets probated. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3900149
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2019 16:23
|
|
|
World on fire: All the protests happening around the globe right now businessinsider.com/8 hours ago "Protests have long been a powerful political tool for enacting change and expressing discontent. From the Civil Rights Movement's the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom to Indian independence, protests have left powerful marks upon the world. Historically, protests have served as an outlet for marginalized groups to articulate their frustrations — and make their demands known. One such example is New York's Stonewall riots, which kicked off the modern Pride movement and mainstream LGBTQ visibility. Today, protests like last month's Global Climate Strike and Hong Kong's ongoing mass protests are calls for politicians to change their policies. The climate strike, for example, drew over 6 million protesters around the world, making it the biggest demonstration against climate change in history."
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2019 02:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 18:41 |
|
|
Almost forgot, stolen cop car chase live https://twitter.com/PCALive/status/1179561407135830016
|
|
#
?
Oct 3, 2019 02:11
|
|
