CanPol 2020 - Programmable Hydraulic Guillotines

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vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

vincentpricesboner posted:

Thats like saying putting another chair up against a door isn't doing anything to help keep a door closed. Voting for the CPC's opposition is in effect, a vote taken away from the cons.

If the NDP or LPC or whoever only have 2 million votes, and not 2 million + 1 (you), you've made it that much easier for the CPC to win.

I think the fundamental disagreement you and I have is that you're approaching voting as a negative action and I'm approaching it as a positive action. You're seeing it as canceling out someone else's vote or taking away a vote from the Conservatives, whereas I'm seeing it as adding a vote to the party you choose to vote for. So when you see your riding as a two-horse race, you're using your vote as a way to subtract a vote from the Conservatives, whereas I see your action as adding a vote to the Liberals. So from your point of view, voting NDP or turning in a blank ballot or writing "hail Satan" or whatever is something being done instead of subtracting a vote from the Conservatives. Whereas from mine, what you're doing is using your voice to support everything the Liberals do by adding a vote to them, which you could be using to instead support the things other parties do by adding your vote to their runner-up totals. Your approach is essentially "voting is harm reduction" whereas mine is that I cannot in good conscience add my vote to a party that will do massive amounts of harm to our country and our planet, just because their primary opponent will likely do even more harm.

Here's an article that I think does a decent job of summarizing why many of us reject the voting-as-harm-reduction idea, especially here in Canada where we actually do have alternative parties to vote for:

quote:

Is voting really �harm reduction�?
by David Camfield Jul 2, 2019

As the federal election approaches, I�ve been hearing and seeing more people on the left in Canada talk about voting as �harm reduction.� In principle, I�m not against voting (although I understand why some Indigenous people refuse to vote in elections for settler-colonial political institutions). But �voting is harm reduction� (VIHR) is a really unhelpful idea.

People who�re involved with efforts to reduce the harm suffered by people who use drugs � which is where the term harm reduction comes from � may have their own things to say about the idea. Since I don�t know much about drugs and harm reduction, I won�t say more about this.

VIHR wrongly assumes that in the lead-up to elections, all we can do is vote for the least-bad candidate or party. Instead of encouraging us to think about how we can take advantage of the election season to further our projects � by challenging racist dog-whistling by politicians, doing political education like the kind the Migrant Rights Network is promoting, injecting our vision into all-candidates meetings, and mobilizing for a just transition away from fossil fuels under the banner of a Green New Deal � VIHR often sends the message that all we can do is settle for one of the options presented to us. This can lead to people doing things that are inconsistent with the commitments to radical change they espouse, like uncritically supporting NDP candidates or even voting Liberal.

It reflects a culture of low expectations and a lack of strategy. The radical left in Canada lacks much confidence in any approach for moving from the status quo toward the future we want. VIHR acts as an obstacle to thinking about how to use election time for movement organizing and building the radical left.

The other problem with VIHR is this: it often implies that because none of the parties want what we want, we should vote for the candidate most likely to defeat the Conservative in a given riding because the Conservatives will do the most harm if they�re in government. That usually means voting Liberal.

But approaching elections with Anyone But the Conservatives (ABC) as our guiding principle is dangerously wrong. It underestimates just how aggressive the Liberals can be in serving the capitalist class. It was the Liberals, not the Tories, who were responsible for making a hard right turn in federal government policy in the mid-1990s. As Michal Rozworski argues in The Tyee, �The austerity implemented by the Liberals, starting with the 1994 budget, helped shift the political consensus sharply to the right.� No matter what they say when trying to appeal to voters who�re rightly horrified by Andrew Scheer�s Conservatives, the Liberals are entirely capable of draconian austerity measures. The actions of Justin Trudeau�s government have already shown us how willing the Liberals are to expand fossil fuel production and help capitalists in other industries. And when we encourage people to vote for the Liberals as �harm reduction,� the noticeable gap between the Liberals� sometimes-lofty rhetoric and their sordid actions risks driving those people � who recognize the Liberals� hypocrisy � to support Conservatives in subsequent elections.

The ABC approach also makes the mistake of thinking that what parties do in office is mainly determined by the formal policies they�re committed to in their policy books and election platforms. That�s just not true: the ideology of party leaders is only one factor in determining what governments do. The demands of the ruling class, the influence of social movements and struggles, and the powerful pressure to keep the wheels of capitalist investment turning because that�s what sustains most employment and, indirectly, most of the flow of taxes that funds the state � all of these drive decisions, too.

ABC also misses the most important difference between the NDP and other parties. The NDP has always been a party that accepts settler-colonial capitalism (it wanted to reform this society, not transform it). Today it accepts settler-colonial capitalism in its neoliberal form. But it�s not a party of the capitalist class itself; unlike the Liberals and Conservatives, it�s not controlled by business owners and their willing servants. In spite of the leadership�s loyalty to existing state institutions and distance from grassroots struggles, the NDP still has links with unions and retains traces of working-class politics (unlike the Greens, who generally dream of making capitalism ecologically sustainable).

When supporters of VIHR end up supporting the Liberals, they�re calling on working-class people to vote for one of the two historic parties of the ruling class. Doing that helps to bury an idea that needs reviving: the working class needs its own political forces, independent from the parties of the bosses.

For leftists, voting should be the least important part of an election. What should be non-negotiable is making use of the opportunity that an election presents to advance our work for the kind of change that isn�t on the ballot and won�t ever be won by voting alone. We can use elections to organize for our demands and introduce radical ideas into the mainstream.

https://briarpatchmagazine.com/articles/view/is-voting-really-harm-reduction

You may see voting as harm reduction, but on election night when the votes are counted there's no difference between a Liberal vote cast because the voter was scared of the Conservatives and a Liberal vote cast because the voter was an enthusiastic supporter of pipeline development, arms sales to genocidal dictatorships, blocking billions of dollars of settlement money from being paid out to Indigenous Canadians, and our abominable FPTP voting system. Those two votes both get counted exactly the same, as little +1s telling Justin Trudeau that he can just keep on keeping on because one way or another Canadians will vote for him instead of giving their votes to a party that wants to do better.

# ? Oct 6, 2019 05:14

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# ? Jun 9, 2024 21:16

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Pinterest Mom posted:

It was a pretty substantial change: at the low end of the income distribution, something like ~$1,000/year/child for every year until the kid turns 18.

Yeah, $83 a month is not nothing, especially at the poverty line. Like, if nothing else, lunches for the month.

# ? Oct 6, 2019 05:16

Franks Happy Place: Mar 15, 2011; It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the dank of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion.

Ah yes, weed "legalization", where every single province is posting a loss because nobody but big corporations that donate to the Liberals are allowed to get licenses, where arrests continue at the exact same pace, and actual medical cannabis patients are having their court-defined rights trampled on because they kept the Harper era system on the books 100% unmodified.

If you are going to say things like this at least please have half a clue what you are talking about.

# ? Oct 6, 2019 06:32

less than three: Aug 9, 2007; Fallen Rib

After trying to their best to keep her away from any media for months and coast by, the CPC finally gives up and lets her go and gives up the riding because you can't paper over her recent homophobic and transphobic ramblings.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/heather-leung-campaign-media-strategy-1.5308429

# ? Oct 6, 2019 07:03

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

So she's going to be running on the PPC ticket then?

e:

loving CBC posted:

Controversial positions
...
Leung said that, because "homosexual people, they cannot reproduce ... they recruit more people ... into their camp."

# ? Oct 6, 2019 07:11

less than three: Aug 9, 2007; Fallen Rib

quote:

Asked if Leung had granted any interviews throughout the campaign, Trost referred to a CTV News story in which the reporter said the campaign manager was in the process of setting up an on-camera interview with the candidate, but was "strong-armed by higher-ups in the party."

They knew she was a previous municipal candidate with horrible values on record, but wanted to try and slip her in, and failed.

# ? Oct 6, 2019 07:28

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

They succeeded though. She�s still going to be on the ballot as a Conservative.

# ? Oct 6, 2019 07:49

vincentpricesboner: Sep 3, 2006; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Franks Happy Place posted:

Ah yes, weed "legalization", where every single province is posting a loss because nobody but big corporations that donate to the Liberals are allowed to get licenses, where arrests continue at the exact same pace, and actual medical cannabis patients are having their court-defined rights trampled on because they kept the Harper era system on the books 100% unmodified.

If you are going to say things like this at least please have half a clue what you are talking about.

I'd like the receipts on their being the same # of arrests for cannabis use. And tell me more about how the medical system just got worse, I am a medical cannabis patient myself.

I know it wasn't perfect, but gently caress if saying keeping it illegal was better.

# ? Oct 6, 2019 13:20

Martian Manfucker: Dec 27, 2012; misandry is real

joke's on you idiots, my MP is diane finley and she's gonna win again so i can vote whatever i want without a care in the world. this is what it means to be truly free.

# ? Oct 6, 2019 14:13

just another: Oct 16, 2009; these dead towns that make the maps wrong now

Ugh Jagmeets drinking water statements might actually induce me to vote.

# ? Oct 6, 2019 16:30

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

More and more signs popping up in Renfrew. We've got three conservative candidates running: an independent "Alternative Conservative", the PPC fash, and Cheryl Gallant.

Apparently our NDP candidate is supposed to be pretty sharp, but I've not seen or heard anything from her, so this is gonna be a depressing vote.

# ? Oct 6, 2019 16:32

crazy eyes mustafa: Nov 30, 2014

for Robert falcon ouellette :getin:

(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)

# ? Oct 6, 2019 16:33

littleorv: Jan 29, 2011

crazy eyes mustafa posted:

for Robert falcon ouellette

I think he barged into one of my university classes to tell us all to go vote for him. It�s been a while though and I may be misremembering.

Vote for uh, Leah Gazan.

# ? Oct 6, 2019 16:48

A Typical Goon: Feb 25, 2011

crazy eyes mustafa posted:

for Robert falcon ouellette

gently caress I hope not, Leah Gazan is one of the best NDP candidates running

# ? Oct 6, 2019 16:49

Coxswain Balls: Jun 4, 2001

littleorv posted:

I think he barged into one of my university classes to tell us all to go vote for him. It�s been a while though and I may be misremembering.

Vote for uh, Leah Gazan.

He did the same thing at the Bon festival over at the Japanese cultural center a couple weeks ago. I hope Leah Gazan grinds him into the dirt.

# ? Oct 6, 2019 17:01

Salean: Mar 17, 2004; Homewrecker

The nominally center left party holding leftist votes hostage against the right is peak succ

# ? Oct 6, 2019 17:12

littleorv: Jan 29, 2011

Salean posted:

The nominally center left party holding leftist votes hostage against the right is peak succ

I always think about how the Ontario Liberals kamikazed themselves to take out the ndp and elect Doug Ford.

# ? Oct 6, 2019 17:15

A Typical Goon: Feb 25, 2011

Salean posted:

The nominally center left party holding leftist votes hostage against the right is peak succ

It's pretty telling when the most compelling argument for voting Liberal is 'they're not Andrew Scheer'

# ? Oct 6, 2019 17:26

Postess with the Mostest: Apr 4, 2007; Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes

littleorv posted:

I always think about how the Ontario Liberals kamikazed themselves to take out the ndp and elect Doug Ford.

Yeah Horwath had it locked up then bam. She'll get it next time though.

# ? Oct 6, 2019 17:28

Precambrian Video Games: Aug 19, 2002

A Typical Goon posted:

It's pretty telling when the most compelling argument for voting Liberal is 'they're not Andrew Scheer'

Hmm, I thought I read somewhere that 300k kids out of poverty ain't nothing?

# ? Oct 6, 2019 17:29

Franks Happy Place: Mar 15, 2011; It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the dank of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion.

vincentpricesboner posted:

I'd like the receipts on their being the same # of arrests for cannabis use. And tell me more about how the medical system just got worse, I am a medical cannabis patient myself.

I know it wasn't perfect, but gently caress if saying keeping it illegal was better.

They continue to arrest people for selling weed and they won't expunge more than a fraction of a fraction of prior cannabis convictions sooooo...?

And since you won't say it: I work in the cannabis industry full time as a licensing consultant and aside from my personal business which is doing super awesome because of this insane bulkshit, nearly every single other person, whether a cannabis user or not, has been negatively affected by the absolutely stupid way they have rolled this out.

The Liberals were warned this would be an economic tsunami, they ignored the warning, and now tens of thousands of marginalized people across rural Canada (especially BC) are losing their livelihood, all so Trudeau could pretend to actually keep an election promise for a change. gently caress that noise in the ear.

Franks Happy Place fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Oct 6, 2019

# ? Oct 6, 2019 17:33

TheKingofSprings: Oct 9, 2012

Franks Happy Place posted:

They continue to arrest people for selling weed and they won't expunge more than a fraction of a fraction of prior cannabis convictions sooooo...?

Maybe if people talked more about Trudeau's dead criminal brother it might get him to change his mind?

Because his dead brother committed what were crimes at the time, after all.

# ? Oct 6, 2019 17:34

tagesschau: Sep 1, 2006; Guten Abend, meine Damen und Herren.

littleorv posted:

I always think about how the Ontario Liberals kamikazed themselves to take out the ndp and elect Doug Ford.

From time to time, I think about things that didn't happen, too, but they don't provide a lot of information for political discussions.

# ? Oct 6, 2019 17:35

vincentpricesboner: Sep 3, 2006; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Franks Happy Place posted:

They continue to arrest people for selling weed and they won't expunge more than a fraction of a fraction of prior cannabis convictions sooooo...?

And since you won't say it: I work in the cannabis industry full time as a licensing consultant and aside from my personal business which is doing super awesome because of this insane bulkshit, nearly every single other person, whether a cannabis user or not, has been negatively affected by the absolutely stupid way they have rolled this out.

The Liberals were warned this would be an economic tsunami, they ignored the warning, and now tens of thousands of marginalized people across rural Canada (especially BC) are losing their livelihood, all so Trudeau could pretend to actually keep an election promise for a change. gently caress that noise in the ear.

You should do an ask/tell or effortpost in this thread about it. Is your business working in the rec field or medical? I'm curious to know more "inside baseball" stuff about legal weed.

# ? Oct 6, 2019 17:43

Hand Knit: Oct 24, 2005; Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

eXXon posted:

Hmm, I thought I read somewhere that 300k kids out of poverty ain't nothing?

Yet somehow "not Scheer" is still more compelling.

# ? Oct 6, 2019 17:46

EvilJoven: Mar 18, 2005; NOBODY,IN THE HISTORY OF EVER, HAS ASKED OR CARED WHAT CANADA THINKS. YOU ARE NOT A COUNTRY. YOUR MONEY HAS THE QUEEN OF ENGLAND ON IT. IF YOU DIG AROUND IN YOUR BACKYARD, NATIVE SKELETONS WOULD EXPLODE OUT OF YOUR LAWN LIKE THE END OF POLTERGEIST. CANADA IS SO POLITE, EH?; Fun Shoe

tagesschau posted:

From time to time, I think about things that didn't happen, too, but they don't provide a lot of information for political discussions.

Umm once it became apparent that the Ontario liberals weren't able to win the leader of the Ontario libs begged and pleaded with its own voter base to strategically vote conservative to keep the NDP from winning.

# ? Oct 6, 2019 17:48

RealityWarCriminal: Aug 10, 2016

eXXon posted:

Hmm, I thought I read somewhere that 300k kids out of poverty ain't nothing?

He had 4 years and an ironclad majority and that's all he's done?

# ? Oct 6, 2019 17:50

Salean: Mar 17, 2004; Homewrecker

Reality Sinner posted:

He had 4 years and an ironclad majority and that's all he's done?

He bought a pipeline too

# ? Oct 6, 2019 17:55

Pinterest Mom: Jun 9, 2009

# ? Oct 6, 2019 18:06

RealityWarCriminal: Aug 10, 2016

The economic success of this pipeline has allowed us to lift 300k kids from poverty. All hail pipeline.

# ? Oct 6, 2019 18:12

Helsing: Aug 23, 2003; DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU JOE BIDEN

crazy eyes mustafa posted:

for Robert falcon ouellette

# ? Oct 6, 2019 18:21

Precambrian Video Games: Aug 19, 2002

Reality Sinner posted:

He had 4 years and an ironclad majority and that's all he's done?

They commissioned a long report about national pharmacare and promised to spend some money on an unspecified plan sometime in the next 4 years.

Also, your question seems to imply that the Liberals actually wanted to accomplish more, which only a small fraction of their caucus is interested in.

Reality Sinner posted:

The economic success of this pipeline has allowed us to lift 300k kids from poverty. All hail pipeline.

Sounds like we need a pipeline to dump our poverty into somewhere remote where no white people live.

# ? Oct 6, 2019 18:21

Levin: Jun 28, 2005

tagesschau posted:

From time to time, I think about things that didn't happen, too, but they don't provide a lot of information for political discussions.

I don't know if it was a intentional but the OLP sure did a lot of stupid poo poo to go from 56 seats to losing official party status and remember Libs>Fascists>Socialists. However you could also argue it's what led to the largest NDP surge since Rae Days crippled them.

vyelkin posted:

You may see voting as harm reduction, but on election night when the votes are counted there's no difference between a Liberal vote cast because the voter was scared of the Conservatives and a Liberal vote cast because the voter was an enthusiastic supporter of pipeline development, arms sales to genocidal dictatorships, blocking billions of dollars of settlement money from being paid out to Indigenous Canadians, and our abominable FPTP voting system. Those two votes both get counted exactly the same, as little +1s telling Justin Trudeau that he can just keep on keeping on because one way or another Canadians will vote for him instead of giving their votes to a party that wants to do better.

Well put but I need more convincing. If you choose not to place a harm reduction vote my understanding is that it's with the assumption it will lead to greater change down the line. Is there an element of accelerationism in this? Do you think a Scheer government will lead to some great surge from the left that will bring forth a new golden age of socialism? If so sign me up! However I feel like unless we get a complete and utter collapse of the LPC or a charismatic NDP leader on the level of Layton there's little chance of this happening.

What if I'm in a riding that has never gone to a party other than the LPC or CPC and I'm confident there is no chance of that changing in the next few election cycles? I understand change happens gradually and if everyone operates under this assumption nothing will change but... I don't have answer to that. I just want to feel less bad if Scheer wins, reduce the harm if you will.

Levin fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Oct 6, 2019

# ? Oct 6, 2019 18:35

tagesschau: Sep 1, 2006; Guten Abend, meine Damen und Herren.

EvilJoven posted:

Umm once it became apparent that the Ontario liberals weren't able to win the leader of the Ontario libs begged and pleaded with its own voter base to strategically vote conservative to keep the NDP from winning.

Again, this is a thing that didn't happen.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/wynne-liberals-ontario-election-minority-government-1.4689222

CBC posted:

An emotional Kathleen Wynne [...] encouraged voters to elect Liberal candidates to prevent the NDP or PCs from securing a majority.
[...]
The only way to keep the province's next government on a "short leash," Wynne said, is to send as many Liberals to the Ontario Legislature as possible.

"The more Liberal MPPs we send to Queens Park on June 7, the less likely it becomes that either Doug Ford or the NDP will be able to form a majority government," Wynne said.
[...]
As for her Liberal candidates, Wynne said she will continue to work to get as many elected as possible.

The Liberals' share of the vote came did not move at all from where they were polling when Wynne made this statement; there was no massive defection from the Liberals to the Tories. The Conservatives outperformed their polling numbers, and the NDP underperformed. This was almost certainly due to turnout; it's a common pattern that right-of-center voters are more reliable.

tagesschau fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Oct 6, 2019

# ? Oct 6, 2019 18:44

Nine of Eight: Apr 28, 2011; LICK IT OFF, AND PUT IT BACK IN; Dinosaur Gum

This is dumb as hell, but Lowtax�s spine isn�t gonna fix itself:

I�m gonna :toxx:

that the Bloq Quebecois will end up with more seats than the NDP.

# ? Oct 6, 2019 23:11

Risky Bisquick: Jan 18, 2008; PLEASE LET ME WRITE YOUR VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENT SO I CAN FURTHER DEMONSTRATE THE CALAMITY THAT IS OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.; Buglord

Adam Van Koeverden over Lisa Raitt

# ? Oct 6, 2019 23:27

Precambrian Video Games: Aug 19, 2002

Risky Bisquick posted:

Adam Van Koeverden over Lisa Raitt

I had no idea this former Olympic hero was running. He sounds like the perfect Liberal!

quote:

People always ask me �why are you running, what do you believe in?�...

I believe in a lot of things, but above all else, I #BelieveInCanada.

Wikipedia, with no source posted:

He has said that "Both the Left Wing and the Right Wing have good ideas".

Well, best of luck against Raitt, especially if that quote is fictional. But a great campaign slogan would be 'Not left, not right, but Canada :canada:

# ? Oct 6, 2019 23:45

Pinterest Mom: Jun 9, 2009

The phrasing is wrong but
"I believe politics could use a little sportsmanship. I trained with my competitors because we had the same goals, and winning was easier when we joined forces. I joined the party in the middle because I genuinely want to work with everyone. There are good ideas on both sides of the political spectrum, and as a Liberal, I think I�m well positioned to collaborate." is a real quote.

# ? Oct 6, 2019 23:46

Lassitude: Oct 21, 2003

Sounds about right for a person who acts like playing sports is a meaningful part of a resume.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 00:20

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# ? Jun 9, 2024 21:16

SilverMike: Sep 17, 2007; TBD

Pinterest Mom posted:

The phrasing is wrong but
"I believe politics could use a little sportsmanship. I trained with my competitors because we had the same goals, and winning was easier when we joined forces. I joined the party in the middle because I genuinely want to work with everyone. There are good ideas on both sides of the political spectrum, and as a Liberal, I think I�m well positioned to collaborate." is a real quote.

Yeah buddy, you don't have to tell us you're down to collaborate if you're a Lib.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 00:29

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