UKMT Red October 2019: Lies, dem libs, and polling companies.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT Red October 2019: Lies, dem libs, and polling companies.

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bump_fn: Apr 12, 2004; _{two of them}

Rarity posted:

I too can write meaningless graphs

wheres the meaningless graph all i see is a very accurate one

e: cat

bump_fn fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Oct 7, 2019

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:06

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# ? May 25, 2024 07:37

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

OwlFancier posted:

If british politicians trying to do british politics in britain with british voters isn't a domestic issue then one wonders what possibly could be.

Again, though, are they acting in their electorate's interests? The best guide to who is in power in a country is who is prospering. That does not at present appear to be the British electorate, but a lot of foreign interests are doing extremely well off their backs.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:06

Spangly A: May 14, 2009; God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall

Darth Walrus posted:

I mean, you're basically describing the standard British colonial model there. If your government is more interested in foreign predators than their own electorate, you probably don't have a sovereign democracy, but a client dictatorship.

nobody said it wasnt funny but we are very clearly a client of whichever of the saudis or china last spoke to us

Darth Walrus posted:

Again, though, are they acting in their electorate's interests? The best guide to who is in power in a country is who is prospering. That does not at present appear to be the British electorate, but a lot of foreign interests are doing extremely well off their backs.

yeah the overton window centred pre-grenfell on "minorities: are they really people?", and now on "bankers or people: which are people?" when obviously we live through a civil war between capitalists that feed on us and capitalists that consider us an irritating pest squatting on their resources

It's specifically nuts to think that these competing blocs are both the state of Russia, because it is nuts to think about nation states as if the eagles didnt fall 102 years ago

Spangly A fucked around with this message at 14:12 on Oct 7, 2019

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:08

Rarity: Oct 21, 2010; ~*4 LIFE*~

bump_fn posted:

wheres the meaningless graph all i see is a very accurate one

It is meaningless because the graph lacks scales. To truly be accurate the level of cuntishness must be qualified :eng101:

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:08

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Josef bugman posted:

Because both sides give up the idea that anyone has any agency to decide anything and plays into the "it's no use" garbage that Capitalism has been using to frame itself as the only game in town for the last 30 years.

It says that the British public does not have much agency under the current political model. That simply means the model needs to be changed because it's not working. We need to acknowledge when and how we are powerless if we want to stand any chance of gaining power.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:08

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Darth Walrus posted:

Again, though, are they acting in their electorate's interests? The best guide to who is in power in a country is who is prospering. That does not at present appear to be the British electorate, but a lot of foreign interests are doing extremely well off their backs.

Have they ever? Does any liberal democracy? They can be acting in the interests of the ruling class and that is still a domestic problem.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:10

Josef bugman: Nov 17, 2011; Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Darth Walrus posted:

It says that the British public does not have much agency under the current political model. That simply means the model needs to be changed because it's not working. We need to acknowledge when and how we are powerless if we want to stand any chance of gaining power.

But selling it as "Oh you see we are all going to hell and it's been the fault of people for X amount of time" skirts dangerously close to "wake up sheeple" levels.

I don't disagree, but I think that an overwhelming urge to blame and find fault with things as they are can actively hinder efforts to improve things, because it takes us down into a granuality which is not really required to make things better.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:11

sebzilla: Mar 17, 2009; Kid's blasting everything in sight with that new-fangled musket.

So we're getting prorogued again tomorrow, right? This week is going to be boring.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:11

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Spangly A posted:

nobody said it wasnt funny but we are very clearly a client of whichever of the saudis or china last spoke to us

I think that Russia has enough of a foothold to have a go at giving our political direction a kick, because Putin has repeatedly shown his willingness to prioritise risky, short-term nationalistic gains over stable, long-term profits. That doesn't mean others don't have the power, only that they're either disinterested or apply it in different ways (Saudi Arabia, for instance, just wants us to sell them weapons and bomb people for them).

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:13

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Josef bugman posted:

Because both sides give up the idea that anyone has any agency to decide anything and plays into the "it's no use" garbage that Capitalism has been using to frame itself as the only game in town for the last 30 years.

I do wonder if postmodernism replacing Marxism for analysis for a lot of the academic left has had anything to do with this.

Not postmodernism (or indeed Marxism) as Jordi Pedo thinks it means, but an obsessive drive with dismantling and picking apart the very means of doing things.

People like being right and they like things being straightforward and understandable, and "it's complicated and depends on the very definition of..." will always fail to the "The Sun Sez: It was Muslims" in the wider social sphere.

Which is not to do the brocialism thing of "and therefore the BAMEs and QUILTBAGs will have to wait until after the Revolution" but that the Left needs snappy memetic slogans and real zeal to unite people.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:13

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Guavanaut posted:

I do wonder if postmodernism replacing Marxism for analysis for a lot of the academic left has had anything to do with this.

Not postmodernism (or indeed Marxism) as Jordi Pedo thinks it means, but an obsessive drive with dismantling and picking apart the very means of doing things.

People like being right and they like things being straightforward and understandable, and "it's complicated and depends on the very definition of..." will always fail to the "The Sun Sez: It was Muslims" in the wider social sphere.

Which is not to do the brocialism thing of "and therefore the BAMEs and QUILTBAGs will have to wait until after the Revolution" but that the Left needs snappy memetic slogans and real zeal to unite people.

I found the post in the lefttube thread relevant:

dead gay comedy forums posted:

Something that helped me was that, well, each and every era of humankind had its tribulations. If you were near some rat plague during the Little Ice Age, if you were not concerned, people would be holy loving poo poo what the gently caress is wrong with you the world is collapsing God save us all at you.

To further elaborate with some ruminations of mine, I think this is one of the really subversive blows that postmodernity dealt to the Left as "an orientation towards the future". In the 50s and 60s, a common characteristic of Soviet villains in anglophone TV series was their "fanaticism", "radicalism" or what have you. Regardless of portrayal, that was a true thing: the willingness to die for the Revolution, particularly in its early years, was something that shocked liberal and conservative political thought to its core, and created an impression that would last for decades afterwards.

However, with the 60s rolling towards their end and the continued, sobering post-Stalin self-analysis that was inevitable to happen and very much necessary, the Revolution started to falter as a capitalized Cause. This was further pressed by the majority of left-aligned Western intellectuals going heads-on into postmodern thought.

In terms of politics, a very important part of it was the takedown of Marxist theory as a great ideological driver, about the necessity of turning the masses into "Historical Subjects" (people whose consciousness allows them to perceive their part in society and their role in class struggle, thus allowing them to direct their own social actions and therefore their own history), which given how things went during Stalin's years seemed a kind of very bad destination.

If we could interrogate the concept, leftist thought as a whole may have a lot of difficulty accepting it but the evidence is there: the motivation, the volition, drive, the very animus of revolutionary thought was criticized, ridiculed and dismantled in the West but no substitution was made. The effects were not immediate, but for those born in the 60s and 70s, it would make a tremendous effect in the shaping of their ideological thought: the supports and anchors built from other decades were broken down and cast aside, without replacement. They would be particularly receptive to neoliberalism.

(This is why, IMHO, it is easy for someone born in the late 80s/90s sympathize well with someone like Bernie Sanders instead of their parents: the candidate grew into his politics from an intellectual/ideological scaffold that was strong and stable, that understood that were faults and disasters, but that also understood that these things should not let that bright vision, the clear, distinct and real possibility of a better world is not only there, but can be grasped in our day and age.)

That was the thing that we lost. The distinct understanding that a better world isn't impossible, that it is right at our fingertips, and to truly comprehend that. The old battlecry of "there is a world to win" seems like a joke now, but it inspired some of the most dramatic social changes ever seen in our collective history because the belief was right there.

I think that history takes its own course and the best we can do is to strive as well as possible under the circumstances, keeping hope as well as we can. One does not need a Cause to live, of course, but I believe hope is essential: without it, there is no reason to even have a Left to begin with. We might not have, as a whole, the same revolutionary spirit of yesterday, but I like to think that we can surprise ourselves in some tomorrow, where not only we revive that drive, we go beyond it.

Which I guess boils down to "caring is actually cool and good and disappearing up your own analytical arsehole is not necessarily helpful."

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:17

Doctor_Fruitbat: Jun 2, 2013

Bobby Deluxe posted:

I read an article about this in the Jewish Chronicle so you don't have to.

Oh you poor man, you didn't have to go that far. :ohdear:

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:17

Pablo Bluth: Sep 7, 2007; I've made a huge mistake.

Regarding restaurant profitability: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/feb/22/casual-dining-crunch-jamies-italian-strada-byron-struggling

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:18

Spangly A: May 14, 2009; God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall

Darth Walrus posted:

I think that Russia has enough of a foothold to have a go at giving our political direction a kick, because Putin has repeatedly shown his willingness to prioritise risky, short-term nationalistic gains over stable, long-term profits. That doesn't mean others don't have the power, only that they're either disinterested or apply it in different ways (Saudi Arabia, for instance, just wants us to sell them weapons and bomb people for them).

much like china nuking the NHS IT system for a laugh, it doesnt make much sense to me to consider russian-based information warfare as anything but a parralel of disaster capitalism; here is a state with no allies, lets loving eat them for fun and field-testing. All of the major figureheads have been around for longer than this IT warfare, all are pursuing their own agendas, and no amount of tweets would be relevant if vulture capitalists didnt want to play along by pretending their pet media are v concerned about valid complaints like "why dont we do a genocide?"

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:18

Noxville: Dec 7, 2003

VideoGames posted:

Does anyone have a gimmick where they reply to every tweet that James Cleverly has made with just James Stupidly? If not, I may take up the mantle.

I actually do every time one of his tweets crosses my timeline, yeah...

But feel free to join in.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:19

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

OwlFancier posted:

Have they ever? Does any liberal democracy? They can be acting in the interests of the ruling class and that is still a domestic problem.

Sure, but Brexit is against the interests of much of our traditional ruling class as well - those whose profits are anchored enough to the country to care about its prosperity. India, for instance, has a government much more driven by the interests of Indian prosperity than the UK does. That doesn't make it better, because it's a racist, genocidal nightmare, but it does make it obviously different to Britain. Like, we just had conference season, and literally only one party (who are not presently in power) had a detailed plan for the country. That's nuts.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:23

bump_fn: Apr 12, 2004; _{two of them}

Pablo Bluth posted:

Regarding restaurant profitability: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/feb/22/casual-dining-crunch-jamies-italian-strada-byron-struggling

idk any of these other places but byron burgers suck maybe thats why its closing

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:24

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Spangly A posted:

much like china nuking the NHS IT system for a laugh, it doesnt make much sense to me to consider russian-based information warfare as anything but a parralel of disaster capitalism; here is a state with no allies, lets loving eat them for fun and field-testing. All of the major figureheads have been around for longer than this IT warfare, all are pursuing their own agendas, and no amount of tweets would be relevant if vulture capitalists didnt want to play along by pretending their pet media are v concerned about valid complaints like "why dont we do a genocide?"

In Russia's case, though, the government was literally founded by disaster capitalists who are still alive and in power today (well, most of them), so that's an extremely blurred distinction.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:25

Jedit: Dec 10, 2011; Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Pablo Bluth posted:

Regarding restaurant profitability: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/feb/22/casual-dining-crunch-jamies-italian-strada-byron-struggling

Byron are going into administration in part because they deported all their EU workers.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:26

Gatts: Jan 2, 2001; Goodnight Moon; Nap Ghost

quote:

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/19/686830510/senate-finds-russian-bots-bucks-helped-push-brexit-vote-through

MAYER: So it's interesting. It's much the same. There are parallel investigations going on in the United Kingdom to the one that we've got with the Mueller investigation here in the U.S. And they're looking at many of the same problems, many of the same tactics. And both are trying to follow the money that they think maybe came, in part, from Russia. And so it's interesting that there are even some overlapping characters in both countries.

SIMON: Well, that's what I - like Cambridge Analytica, for example.

MAYER: Cambridge Analytica, which is a big data company that worked for the Trump campaign in the end - and it was owned principally by one of Trump's largest backers, Robert Mercer - was also involved in helping the early stages of the Brexit campaign in England.

But I mean if it helps people to feel better that they hosed up exclusively themselves versus being prodded by outside forces to accelerate and incite nationalism I guess. Kinda fits. Like I get there�s a groundwork laid that lead to this amongst the situation in Britain but as if it�s lunacy, it�s not.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_Brexit_referendum

quote:

2017 October, Members of Parliament in the Culture, Media and Sport Committee demanded that Facebook, Twitter, Google, and other social media corporations disclose all adverts and details of payments by Russia in the Brexit campaign.[22]
November 2017, it became public knowledge that Matthew Elliott, the chief executive of Vote Leave, was a founding member of Conservative Friends of Russia, and had been a target asset by someone known to be a Russian spy

So as someone said �Porque no los dos?�

EDIT: what�s the benefit to the regular people of Britain to leave the EU? What was the goal and will it happen?

Gatts fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Oct 7, 2019

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:27

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Darth Walrus posted:

Sure, but Brexit is against the interests of much of our traditional ruling class as well - those whose profits are anchored enough to the country to care about its prosperity. India, for instance, has a government much more driven by the interests of Indian prosperity than the UK does. That doesn't make it better, because it's a racist, genocidal nightmare, but it does make it obviously different to Britain. Like, we just had conference season, and literally only one party (who are not presently in power) had a detailed plan for the country. That's nuts.

Not if you view it as the logical result of the increasing disintegration of society due to the effects of neoliberal hegemony. All other ideologies are suppressed and the dominant one is so dominant that it's "not an ideology", and in the absence of those, the dominant ideology loses its ability to define itself (having nothing to define itself in opposition to) this has the dual effect of isolating both the public and politicians from political reality, neither of them have the ability to think outside their own personal bubble, not even a political bubble, but a personal one, this manifests as political atomisation and non-participation among the public but among people who don't need mass organization to wield political power, it manifests as just being spectacularly bad at politics among the ruling class, because there has to be a ruling class, our society is structured so that we need one, but without the effects of a large scale awareness of political reality among the populace and the politicians, they can't be selected based on that awareness, nor can they play the role of the philosopher kings. Atomisation stops us from forcing awareness on them, and the same process that atomises us erodes their awareness too.

So there is nothing left but personal enrichment within the system, which manifests as toryism and xenophobia among the electorate and, well, toryism and xenophobia among the politicians too. They act exactly like the people who vote for them would act, given the chance.

OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Oct 7, 2019

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:34

bump_fn: Apr 12, 2004; _{two of them}

Gatts posted:

But I mean if it helps people to feel better that they hosed up exclusively themselves versus being prodded by outside forces to accelerate and incite nationalism I guess. Kinda fits. Like I get there�s a groundwork laid that lead to this amongst the situation in Britain but as if it�s lunacy, it�s not.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_Brexit_referendum

So as someone said �Porque no los dos?�

EDIT: what�s the benefit to the regular people of Britain to leave the EU? What was the goal and will it happen?

old white english people dont have to overhear polish on the bus

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:34

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Gatts posted:

EDIT: what�s the benefit to the regular people of Britain to leave the EU? What was the goal and will it happen?

What part of "david cameron called it for political purposes and didn't think he would lose it, and everyone else has been trying to use it to win elections since then" do you not get? It doesn't need a purpose, it doesn't need a benefit for the people, what insane idea are you operating under where you believe politics has to benefit people?

loving yanks man, jesus.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:36

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Jedit posted:

Byron are going into administration in part because they deported all their EU workers.

lol what

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:41

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

OwlFancier posted:

I found the post in the lefttube thread relevant:

Which I guess boils down to "caring is actually cool and good and disappearing up your own analytical arsehole is not necessarily helpful."

Yeah, that all makes sense. There's a real sense of worry that if you care about doing something for a cause too much then... what if it's wrong?

Compare that to neoliberal capitalism. That's easy. Number exists. Is it my number? Cool, did it go up? Good!

I guess Corbyn is also from a generation with that kind of certainty on the left (and the certainty that they stormed the beaches in a Spitfire on the right) like Bernie, and it's better than pathological overanalysis or doomerism.

It also might explain why almost every leftist event I've been to is old women with grey hair, old men with beards, and Gen Z anarchists with rainbow hair, and like one other person my age.

Or maybe that's just the events that I go to.

Darth Walrus posted:

Sure, but Brexit is against the interests of much of our traditional ruling class as well - those whose profits are anchored enough to the country to care about its prosperity. India, for instance, has a government much more driven by the interests of Indian prosperity than the UK does. That doesn't make it better, because it's a racist, genocidal nightmare, but it does make it obviously different to Britain. Like, we just had conference season, and literally only one party (who are not presently in power) had a detailed plan for the country. That's nuts.

It always seems like a fine tightrope between "we should improve society for the people who are currently under our governance and capacity to help while providing suitable assistance elsewhere" and "woo yeah nationalism! our guys!"

It also seems like the fineness of this is deliberately drummed up by the bourgeoisie so that they can say "oh, you want national infrastructure? sounds like something a nationalist would say! a national socialist!" so I'll still go for the first statement.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:41

namesake: Jun 19, 2006; "When I was a girl, around 12 or 13, I had a fantasy that I'd grow up to marry Captain Scarlet, but he'd be busy fighting the Mysterons so I'd cuckold him with the sexiest people I could think of - Nigel Mansell, Pat Sharp and Mr. Blobby."

OwlFancier posted:

What part of "david cameron called it for political purposes and didn't think he would lose it, and everyone else has been trying to use it to win elections since then" do you not get? It doesn't need a purpose, it doesn't need a benefit for the people, what insane idea are you operating under where you believe politics has to benefit people?

loving yanks man, jesus.

People need grand narratives to define themselves within and if it ain't class analysis it takes you strange places

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:41

Red Oktober: May 24, 2006; wiggly eyes!

suck my woke dick posted:

lol what

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/28/it-was-a-fake-meeting-byron-hamburgers-staff-on-immigration-raid

They faked a training meeting for staff and immigration were there.

(Although they won�t be EU workers for obvious reasons).

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:43

BalloonFish: Jun 30, 2013; Fun Shoe

OwlFancier posted:

I found the post in the lefttube thread relevant:

Which I guess boils down to "caring is actually cool and good and disappearing up your own analytical arsehole is not necessarily helpful."

This is all very good stuff that I agree with.

It sort of came up when I was talking with some friends about the Labour conference and Corbyn's speech (friends of the 'aware and sort-of engaged, kinda lefty but not really politicised about it, agree with a lot of Labour policies but prone to picking up all the 'Corbyn is a weak useless leader who's also a ruthless Stalinist Maoist antisemite who can't win elections but is poised to sweep to power and take away your spare bedroom and he lusts for Brexit' stuff'' viewpoint).

I used someone else's summing up of Labour's entire platform that I'd heard (possibly on this very thread...) - that Labour would remake government, the state and society into things that actually help you achieve what you want to do, rather than being a continual series of blockages, challenges, obstacles and 'Not Allowed' signs.

The interesting thing was how many people found this possibility astoundingly radical, having grown up for 30-odd years in a world where society and the state exists, at best, to stand at the sidelines and not get involved and, at worst, actively hinders you in your life. The idea that politics and government could be used to, y'know, actively make life better and easier was both refreshing and immensely appealing.

The slightly dispiriting thing was the minority of them who immediately began havering and saying things like 'Ooo, I dunno, it sounds nice and all but it's not realistic. You can't just make education free or give people interest-free loans to start businesses. That'd never work in the real world...it would have to be means tested, surely?'

Liberals.xls had been updated...

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:43

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

BalloonFish posted:

The interesting thing was how many people found this possibility astoundingly radical, having grown up for 30-odd years in a world where society and the state exists, at best, to stand at the sidelines and not get involved and, at worst, actively hinders you in your life. The idea that politics and government could be used to, y'know, actively make life better and easier was both refreshing and immensely appealing.

Neoliberalism: the government can't do anything to help people, vote for us and we'll prove it.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:46

ThomasPaine: Feb 4, 2009; We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.

Jose posted:

i don't understand how someone can live like this

https://twitter.com/TracyAnnO/status/1180605764592795648?s=20

Ah yes, just standing here creepily photographing a man I obsessively rant and lie about online and his wife having a cup of tea with a friend from behind a window while they're not interacting with me at all, to own the unhinged trolls

It does make me kinda sad that Oberman turned out to be this utter weirdo narcissist because I liked her in Toast of London and Friday Night Dinner and might have had a bit of a crush on her once lol

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:48

Josef bugman: Nov 17, 2011; Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

People want to seem "reasonable" and so they harp back to things that make no sense to do but "sound" correct.

ThomasPaine posted:

and might have had a bit of a crush on her once lol

This and the whole tweetman saga is kind of worrying me mate.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:48

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

BalloonFish posted:

This is all very good stuff that I agree with.

It sort of came up when I was talking with some friends about the Labour conference and Corbyn's speech (friends of the 'aware and sort-of engaged, kinda lefty but not really politicised about it, agree with a lot of Labour policies but prone to picking up all the 'Corbyn is a weak useless leader who's also a ruthless Stalinist Maoist antisemite who can't win elections but is poised to sweep to power and take away your spare bedroom and he lusts for Brexit' stuff'' viewpoint).

I used someone else's summing up of Labour's entire platform that I'd heard (possibly on this very thread...) - that Labour would remake government, the state and society into things that actually help you achieve what you want to do, rather than being a continual series of blockages, challenges, obstacles and 'Not Allowed' signs.

The interesting thing was how many people found this possibility astoundingly radical, having grown up for 30-odd years in a world where society and the state exists, at best, to stand at the sidelines and not get involved and, at worst, actively hinders you in your life. The idea that politics and government could be used to, y'know, actively make life better and easier was both refreshing and immensely appealing.

The slightly dispiriting thing was the minority of them who immediately began havering and saying things like 'Ooo, I dunno, it sounds nice and all but it's not realistic. You can't just make education free or give people interest-free loans to start businesses. That'd never work in the real world...it would have to be means tested, surely?'

Liberals.xls had been updated...

I think fundamentally a big leap you have to take to really get good leftist politics is that you can, and should, say "actually no, why doesn't society work for me instead?"

Cos I think it's really the only ideology that says that, liberals take the status quo as immutable save for fiddling with the knobs and we just have to get along with it, with varying degrees of frowny face emoticons attached. The far right usually advocates for something akin to loving ego death and complete subsumation into a society, while the left varies between society should serve people to society and people should have a mutual relationship.

And yeah people have a slightly weird resistance to it. I guess it's kind of arrogant but it's surprising to me that people don't find that slightly appealing? Like it's an actual justification to come out big dick swinging and demand better in the most give-no-fucks attitude you can muster, and people still shy away from it. Isn't it the best kind of transgression? It's a heady mix of gently caress the rules but also we can and should be positive about our goals and to each other, it's like if you were really optimisitc as a teenager instead of depressed.

And people still just retreat into "better things aren't possible" like they're more loving depressed than I am. It's weird.

OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Oct 7, 2019

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:49

it dont matter: Aug 29, 2008

bump_fn posted:

idk any of these other places but byron burgers suck maybe thats why its closing

quote:

Chef Gary Usher owns four bistros in the north-west of England, including his flagship Sticky Walnut in Chester, which pride themselves on �proper� cooking. He scoffs at the large chains blaming external factors � which are punishing for independents, too � for their woes. Yes, last year�s business rates reassessment hit hard (according to analysis by Colliers International, the Jamie Oliver Restaurant Group�s rates went up 28%, or �1.6m), but there could be a far simpler reason why they are struggling. �Strada being in trouble doesn�t surprise me one bit: it�s loving awful,� he says. �Why do they deserve to stay open? Strada, C�te � I despise C�te � Carluccio�s, Jamie�s, they should be loving closing. I ate in the Liverpool Jamie�s two months ago and it was possibly the worst meal I�ve ever had. It was appalling. I ordered what was supposed to be sausage ragout. It looked like boiled tomatoes with overcooked pasta, and it tasted the same.�

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:51

Diet Crack: Jan 15, 2001

All those restaurants are failing because they scaled up far too quickly for their market, but it's a total gamble with this economy and the current state of it all. Nando's will probably survive, and I hope Byron survives.

Go to Pizza Union if you're in London, chumps. �6 wood fired pizzas with good classic toppings, you can't go wrong.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:51

Sanford: Jun 30, 2007; ...and rarely post!

oh ffs, I've seen her name enough times in this thread and never realised it's Ray Purchase's wife. Thanks ThomasPaine, I will remember in future to hate her extra hard when she's on screen.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:52

Josef bugman: Nov 17, 2011; Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

I can personally recommend Bianco's.

I must admit it is funny to see these places go down because they were expensive without being good.

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:54

Cat Machine: Jun 18, 2008

Diet Crack posted:

I hope Byron survives.

I don't.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/28/it-was-a-fake-meeting-byron-hamburgers-staff-on-immigration-raid

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:54

Diet Crack: Jan 15, 2001

Cat Machine posted:

I don't.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/28/it-was-a-fake-meeting-byron-hamburgers-staff-on-immigration-raid

Ok so the management can gently caress off, but let those people have real working conditions and honest pay to make more tasty burgers.

It's always the management that can gently caress off. It's a symptom of the situation.

tldr: the burgers are good and I don't want them to go

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:55

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

OwlFancier posted:

The far right usually advocates for something akin to loving ego death and complete subsumation into a society

The far right is good at making people* feel powerful though, like they as an individual can affect change**.

They're poo poo cunts but they know all about appeal to the alienated and nice*** simple causes and sticking to them when they're told that they're wrong.

*straight white people of the right type of straight and white
**punch a foreign looking person
***horrible

Also half of their ideas are stolen from when the left was like that but then class replaced with race.

OwlFancier posted:

liberals take the status quo as immutable save for fiddling with the knobs

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:57

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# ? May 25, 2024 07:37

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

OwlFancier posted:

And yeah people have a slightly weird resistance to it. I guess it's kind of arrogant but it's surprising to me that people don't find that slightly appealing? Like it's an actual justification to come out big dick swinging and demand better in the most give-no-fucks attitude you can muster, and people still shy away from it. Isn't it the best kind of transgression? It's a heady mix of gently caress the rules but also we can and should be positive about our goals and to each other, it's like if you were really optimisitc as a teenager instead of depressed.

And people still just retreat into "better things aren't possible" like they're more loving depressed than I am. It's weird.

* don't be selfish and ask other people to take care of your mess

* doing things that go beyond the socially accepted level of nonconformism is for when you want to act like a teenaged rear end in a top hat who needs to blow off steam not for actually doing anything serious

* :decorum:

e: basically people probably briefly entertain the thought that better things would be nice, but then remember that seriously wanting better things is immoral unless you're rich and can just pay for them instead of burdening society, and in any case rocking the boat would be gauche

suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Oct 7, 2019

# ? Oct 7, 2019 14:58

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT Red October 2019: Lies, dem libs, and polling companies.

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