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Ummmm, I'm actually not super excited to see the possibility of a US military completely unchained from civilian oversight, even if that civilian is Trump or if they're obeying an objectively dumb order Edit: Cat tax 
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Oct 7, 2019 23:16
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Gamerofthegame posted:with this and open skies he's obv trump is just doing some weird anti-globalist, isolationist agenda but because he's not even really isolationist as much as he is "if it's good for me then gently caress everyone else" in most cases that just means "gently caress everyone else" period but in some cases it means "ok you're cool for now"
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Oct 7, 2019 23:16
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It's days like this that make me so grateful that Nancy Pelosi has had the wisdom and foresight to slow walk impeachment as much as possible. Can you imagine the disaster if she rushed into pushing back against Trump too quickly? Thank God for the leadership of Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:16
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So here’s what I guess happened. Trump tweeted out his “order” last night on a personal whim without any pre planning or consultation with anyone. He did not go through any proper channels to actually issue an order that can be followed through and as such the military is scrambling about and trying to go about as business as usual as if he said nothing. However, Turkey took his personal assurance that his order was an official directive that would be followed and that the road would be cleared for them to move in. This is apparently not true. So we’re probably headed for a stand off between US and Turkish troops if Turkey moves forward and invades. What a disastrous clusterfuck.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:16
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Guze posted:They also said they're going to "correct demographics" so they're openly saying they're going to do genocide The open part of their plan is to resettle 2 million of Turkey's Arab Syrian refugees into the Kurdish region. This still falls under the definition of genocide even if it isn't accompanied by mass murder and oppression, which is extremely unlikely.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:25
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I'm not super familiar with the status of the Syrian Kurds, maybe this would be a better question for the ME thread but: Does Turkey just want to crush the Kurdish militias? They don't want the land, do they? They want to kill off the militias to prevent Turkish Kurds from getting any ideas about independence.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:25
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The Glumslinger posted:Ummmm, I'm actually not super excited to see the possibility of a US military completely unchained from civilian oversight, even if that civilian is Trump or if they're obeying an objectively dumb order it's a very bad situation because it's straight up either accepting that at any time the president can just leave an entire population to die with no real check other than a post-event condemnation...or yea, accepting that the military can actually just ignore civilian oversight if they decide it's not good. it's almost like life as an empire is a hellish reality of authoritarianism in different forms.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:27
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Pellisworth posted:I'm not super familiar with the status of the Syrian Kurds, maybe this would be a better question for the ME thread but:
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Oct 7, 2019 23:28
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:So here’s what I guess happened. That theory sounds pretty drat plausible, and the fact that it does is terrifying. I had taken comfort that Lard Voldemort is too stupid to use the nuclear football but I guess that doesn't stop him from bumbling us into WWIII via Twitter.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:29
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sexpig by night posted:it's a very bad situation because it's straight up either accepting that at any time the president can just leave an entire population to die with no real check other than a post-event condemnation...or yea, accepting that the military can actually just ignore civilian oversight if they decide it's not good. TBF, most 'sane' systems have provisions for the latter and even ours to some extent expects the latter. A lot of the question is can they just completely ignore it or do they have to pay some lip service. That said, once a society is at the point where they're depending on the military to not follow orders to preserve a democracy, things are pretty far gone already. Like we're closer to the traditional breakdown point of an executive giving illegal orders rather than the military refusing lawful orders. E: In this case you could (and I'm sure the military would make if push came to shove) make a case that this order will lead to a war and that as Trump is not the sole arbiter of American foreign policy, there needs to be some consensus reached before they just go instigate a war at the first tweeted order.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:32
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The Glumslinger posted:Ummmm, I'm actually not super excited to see the possibility of a US military completely unchained from civilian oversight, even if that civilian is Trump or if they're obeying an objectively dumb order It's not entirely clear if they're actually defying an order, because a tweet does not constitute an order and nobody seems to know if he actually ordered them out, or if he just tweeted it and expected that to be taken as an order. He does this a lot.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:32
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Watch Trump start a small skirmish that ends up with some lives lost because it was easier for him to tweet rather than pick up a phone and make some calls and follow a chain of command.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:32
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Cacator posted:The mandate of heaven? Did Trump become a Chinese emperor recently? Americans in general may not use the phrase but they definitely believe in the Mandate of Heaven
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Oct 7, 2019 23:33
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:So here’s what I guess happened. It's a clusterfuck but better than if the order has been binding.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:34
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Pellisworth posted:I'm not super familiar with the status of the Syrian Kurds, maybe this would be a better question for the ME thread but: Quick and Dirty: the Kurds are an ethnic minority without a territory to call their own, but they're located in parts of Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Turkey itself. The Kurdish population in Syria is about ~2 million, while the one in Turkey itself is closer to 20 million. Erdogan fears that at some point the Kurds may attempt to cede from Turkey and create an autonomous Kurdistan from the areas they already occupy. People have mentioned Rojava in this thread before, that's basically the seat of authority for what people usually call the Kurdish Autonomous Region and it's located basically right up on the border with Turkey. Since Syria's in such dire straits, the Kurds in that area are effectively a self-governing body (and have until very recently been heavily entrenched and entangled with our own troops). Turkey is attempting to remove what Erdogan sees as a potential threat (and constant annoyance) by murdering the gently caress out of them while our CIC shits himself publicly. edit: messed that up a little. "The Kurdish Autonomous Region" usually refers to part of Iraq (that's controlled by Kurd forces), the part of Syria is usually referred to as The Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria (Rojava). Basically, Turkey doesn't want another autonomous region in their own country. Sorry for the misinformation. Ershalim fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Oct 7, 2019 |
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Oct 7, 2019 23:35
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I feel really bad for the 50-100 US troops that were on a boring deployment that got turned into soldiers at Wizna because of a tweet.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:35
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Pellisworth posted:I'm not super familiar with the status of the Syrian Kurds, maybe this would be a better question for the ME thread but: Asking about "Turkish Kurds" or Syrian or whatever is the wrong approach. Broad view: the Kurds are hated by all the countries their territory resides within and that was by design. It goes all the way back to the Ottoman Empire's collapse post-WW1. In short, the Kurdish areas are where a lot of the resources are, and pretty much no one wanted them to be in charge of all of it, so this is part of why their territory is divided between multiple countries. It's your basic racist tactic of leaving them small marginalized pieces of land instead of allowing them to become one self-determined country. This is how I understand it anyway but someone please correct me if I'm off base there.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:36
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https://twitter.com/samstein/status/1181297559299661831
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Oct 7, 2019 23:37
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Herstory Begins Now posted:TBF, most 'sane' systems have provisions for the latter and even ours to some extent expects the latter. A lot of the question is can they just completely ignore it or do they have to pay some lip service. That said, once a society is at the point where they're depending on the military to not follow orders to preserve a democracy, things are pretty far gone already. Like we're closer to the traditional breakdown point of an executive giving illegal orders rather than the military refusing lawful orders. Yea this is more an issue of our bloated, imperial, military than anything. Like if we were a functional country with a normal defensive force who's only international actions were coalition based things like 'keep Turkey from slaughtering Kurds while ISIS victimizes them' then the issue of who can override what would be a lot lesser. But yea, right now we're in a stage where we need our military to go crazy authoritarian coup poo poo to prevent something worse and whoo is that a bellwether for WAY deeper issues than Turkey vs the Kurds.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:39
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Aeolusdallas posted:Americans in general may not use the phrase but they definitely believe in the Mandate of Heaven Except for Obama who we all know was the antichrist. God really screwed the pooch on that one!
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Oct 7, 2019 23:40
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Any word yet on whether we can expect the pivot?
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Oct 7, 2019 23:40
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Ringo Star Get posted:Watch Trump start a small skirmish that ends up with some lives lost because it was easier for him to tweet rather than pick up a phone and make some calls and follow a chain of command. Yep, it's Monday.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:42
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Yeah the military might be in a revolt against the President right now In other words, we are leaving the grand majority of our forces there ready to hold off the Turks. One of the only loving times in modern history the US military is completely justified on something
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Oct 7, 2019 23:43
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lol it's monday
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Oct 7, 2019 23:44
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sexpig by night posted:lol it's monday Buckle in ladies and gentlemen this is only the beginning of the quickening. It'll get only crazier and crazier at faster and faster intervals from now on. Hope you're prepared.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:45
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The way she's grinning in that photo makes it looks like she'really excited to devpur a child's soul right in front of us all.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:45
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Prester Jane posted:The way she's grinning in that photo makes it looks like she'really excited to devpur a child's soul right in front of us all. She's animorphing, yo.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:48
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Prester Jane posted:The way she's grinning in that photo makes it looks like she'really excited to devpur a child's soul right in front of us all. Who says she's not?
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Oct 7, 2019 23:48
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Pellisworth posted:I'm not super familiar with the status of the Syrian Kurds, maybe this would be a better question for the ME thread but: Not just militias, they want to smash the Kurdish people. Turkey has a long history of oppressing and massacring Kurds within their borders. That's why they want to ensure that they're a minority in the region.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:48
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It was just about the loving hotel wasn't it? Like how could the president be rolled and out-negotiated? Out-negotiated HOW? As lovely as the United States is, they have power. This is like on the verge of the Iraq invasion, Hussein calls Bush Jr and then it's like, "Welp, you got me Saddam, I guess I have to give you Florida now."
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Oct 7, 2019 23:50
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1glitch0 posted:It was just about the loving hotel wasn't it? Like how could the president be rolled and out-negotiated? Out-negotiated HOW? As lovely as the United States is, they have power. This is like on the verge of the Iraq invasion, Hussein calls Bush Jr and then it's like, "Welp, you got me Saddam, I guess I have to give you Florida now." Donald Trump is a very stupid person whom an entire political party has decided to keep in power. Because they are afraid of their own racist voters that love their racist Trump. Power is relative in this kind of situation.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:53
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Mr Ice Cream Glove posted:Woah Isn't that dumbass with the Trump sign at the Starbucks an Act for America stooge?
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Oct 7, 2019 23:54
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Friendly reminder that Michelle Malkin is a terrible person who literally wrote 'in defense of internment' and defended a rapist cop, and ACT America is a legit hate group in the 'convert or kill all muslims' vein. So a hearty  and eat poo poo to both.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:56
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my bony fealty posted:Power is relative in this kind of situation. To be fair, Turkey does have quite a bit of leverage in international politics because of their location and power. They're not in the same league as the US, projection-wise, but they're a major player in the region. Not having access to Turkish military bases and resources (or allowing the US to station bases nearby) would be a huge hit to our ability to "contain" Russia. For... as much as that matters when Putin's hand is up our president's rear end. Trump, being a toadie of very little brain, could easily be outmaneuvered by someone who know literally anything about the area threatening to take stuff away. edit: plus he's personally leveraged by private enterprise holdings. Almost like there's a reason we used to have presidents ... you know, not.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:56
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I think Trump is a very bad president. He shouldn't have that job.
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Oct 8, 2019 00:03
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moostaffa posted:I think Trump is a very bad president. He shouldn't have that job. finally
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Oct 8, 2019 00:04
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TulliusCicero posted:Isn't that dumbass with the Trump sign at the Starbucks an Act for America stooge? Yup!
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Oct 8, 2019 00:05
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Fart Amplifier posted:Implode earth immediately tia A lot of people seem to be taking their best shot.
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Oct 8, 2019 00:11
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J.A.B.C. posted:Friendly reminder that Michelle Malkin is a terrible person who literally wrote 'in defense of internment' and defended a rapist cop, and ACT America is a legit hate group in the 'convert or kill all muslims' vein. Michelle Malkin was the original "non white male GOP cheerleader" in the early 2000s who made her money triggering the libs.
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Oct 8, 2019 00:12
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