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hah I was rereading and one question instantly came up, where the gently caress is Destiny if she is so important regarding Moira's powers , but BAM here she will is/will be
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Oct 9, 2019 15:22
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I feel like Destiny would want to work with Moira now. we only saw them interact once when Moira was anti-mutant. I’d think they could get along now, and she could be super helpful to Moira. I’m not surprised Moira created Proteus on purpose, that’s kind of what I assumed since her big reveal. A little surprised Xavier created Legion on purpose. I am definitely already feeling Moira over Magneto/Xavier in their future conflict. Other thing - I wonder if that Sinister secret could actually be about Wolverine/Moira. Is she still married? I feel like in Claremont’s time they couldn’t get divorced for some reason because of his diplomat status. They’re clearly super close in at least two of her lives, which are her longest lives. I’ve always thought most of Wolverine’s partners were kind of gross, but would kind of love him to be with someone with as just as many life experiences in Moira.
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Oct 9, 2019 15:34
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so...where does all this fit into current continuity? Is this even in the main timeline or....? I'm not a strict continuity guy, and I feel like being a slave to continuity actually hinders story-lines most of the time, but after 12 issues I still have no clue how this lines up with any thing. Is this basically an "Elseworlds"? Am i just too loving dumb to get where this slots in? I'm enjoying this, but I'm starting to creep into "why should I care" territory.
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Oct 9, 2019 16:33
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It's a reboot.
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Oct 9, 2019 16:35
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Fritzler posted:I feel like Destiny would want to work with Moira now. we only saw them interact once when Moira was anti-mutant. I’d think they could get along now, and she could be super helpful to Moira. I’m not surprised Moira created Proteus on purpose, that’s kind of what I assumed since her big reveal. A little surprised Xavier created Legion on purpose. My guess is that Moira is playing her own game. She’s so adamant not just about Destiny but all precogs being barred from Krakoa makes my suspect she’s not working the best interests of mutants.
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Oct 9, 2019 16:43
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enigmahfc posted:so...where does all this fit into current continuity? Is this even in the main timeline or....? The "Moira recused herself after a certain point in the timeline and faked her own death" thing seems to basically be there so that all the accumulated X-continuity still happened more or less identically. It's a reboot, but all the history's the same except for these core differences: - Charles, Magneto, Moira and Sinister had some early meetings prior to/during the formation of the first team of X-Men where they put their heads together on the Krakoa plan in various configurations. - A lot of things that happened in the old continuity (like Moira's death, the birth of Proteus, Charles and Magneto's years of being enemies) still happened, but there are different contexts and motivations behind them now. - Charles got his slick hover-chair early courtesy of a cheaty meeting with Forge. Presumably Forge's memory was wiped afterwards so that his in-continuity intro where his devices depowered Storm still played out the same.
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Oct 9, 2019 16:48
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I think either there’s something more to the plan Moira doesn’t want anyone else to know about, or somehow Moira somehow knows that this too is going to fail
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Oct 9, 2019 16:56
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Parallax posted:I think either there’s something more to the plan Moira doesn’t want anyone else to know about, or somehow Moira somehow knows that this too is going to fail I think she’s basing this on it being her last life so she’s taking absolutely no chances from what she feels should be done. X and Erik brushing her aside and asking her to let them do their thing, in addition to the chance of Destiny returning, is coming at odds with what she feels needs to happen for things to be different.
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Oct 9, 2019 17:06
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Parallax posted:I think either there’s something more to the plan Moira doesn’t want anyone else to know about, or somehow Moira somehow knows that this too is going to fail
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Oct 9, 2019 17:07
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also not sure where Hickman is going with this posthuman stuff. if humans can genetically modify themselves into being something equal to, or greater than mutants, then what really separates them? i guess i don't see the significance of this being the hidden 6th Moira life, other than maybe clarifying that humans and not machines are mutants ultimate enemy. i'm sure Hickman will explore this more, but it just doesn't seem as interesting as anything going on in the current lifetime
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Oct 9, 2019 17:17
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Android Blues posted:The "Moira recused herself after a certain point in the timeline and faked her own death" thing seems to basically be there so that all the accumulated X-continuity still happened more or less identically. It's a reboot, but all the history's the same except for these core differences: okay, I guess I was just trying to hard to make it all "make sense", which is the complete opposite of how I normally handle things, so that's on me. I'm still going to give the 'X-Men in the Ewok Village' reboot a chance.
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Oct 9, 2019 17:17
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It’s definitely a “secret history” instead of a reboot, which Hickman has already done a bunch of times before. That Legion and Proteus are both engineered on purpose is very nasty but it makes a lot of sense. So 6th life is where humans and mutants both got locked in zoos so the Phalanx thing could happen. And maybe Moira and wolverine were married for a thousand years? 7th life Moira tried to destroy all robots, and learns that it’s impossible.
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Oct 9, 2019 17:27
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people are really calling this a reboot? it's just a lot of retcons
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Oct 9, 2019 17:54
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It’s actually neither.
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Oct 9, 2019 17:55
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Barry Convex posted:people are really calling this a reboot? it's just a lot of retcons That's what all reboots are though ultimately, aren't they?
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Oct 9, 2019 17:59
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I really don't like this implication that Xavier has just been putting on a song and dance in every monologue he's given over the past five decades of comics. I'm also not sure when this fall-out with Magneto alluded to in the text piece happens, how long it lasts, what's been quietly retconned-- like, I don't know, was ripping Wolverine's adamantium out part of the plan? Was the Mutant Massacre part of the plan? Did they have any sort of heads-up on Cassandra Nova and Genosha-- for that matter, was Genosha always doomed to failure? Was the Dark Phoenix stuff something they could have prepared for or did prepare for or was that a fresh wrinkle? It just opens up a lot of questions completely separate from the characterization stuff, and maybe in a different context I'd be very interested in seeing those questions get resolved, but right now it seems like a weirdly myopic approach to writing shared characters in a shared universe.
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Oct 9, 2019 19:10
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Didn't they mention in an earlier issue that he had hard rebooted his own mind twice? I just assumed that he did that at some point before the X-Men began in earnest, and had it restored very recently.
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Oct 9, 2019 19:18
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I think Moira is supposed to be the explanation for that. She tried all that, it didn't work, so they had to sit back.
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Oct 9, 2019 19:18
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I do think there are some things about the history of the franchise that are going to fall apart if you think about them too hard, at least without further explanation (though I think they might be better off handwaving it away instead), but I loved the miniseries, think it ended on a high note, and can't wait to see where things go from here.
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Oct 9, 2019 19:38
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Moira notes that just seeing her mind once doesn't mean that Xavier has perfect recall of everything she's seen so it's not like he's known exactly what's coming down the pipeline the whole time.
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Oct 9, 2019 20:12
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Starsnostars posted:Moira notes that just seeing her mind once doesn't mean that Xavier has perfect recall of everything she's seen so it's not like he's known exactly what's coming down the pipeline the whole time. Seems like she'd still bother to mention that millions of mutants were going to die since they'd presumably be useful to have around for what's coming (and defending against mutant genocide is the whole point of what she's doing), unless it didn't go down in the same way in her timelines.
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Oct 9, 2019 20:14
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At least with Magneto, there's that note in Moira's conspicuously undated journal that they lose him at one point. Hickman's working pretty hard here to say that the established history of the 616 so far is more or less in keeping with Moira's win conditions.
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Oct 9, 2019 20:31
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So... As a whole, this series did exactly what it was supposed to do: create a new- REALLY new- status quo for the X-books. And I think it did that in a really great way. Namely, it teased the future in ways that make you really excited for them paying off, unlike cryptic time-maps with future events scrawled on them. It is Claremont's long-term vision again and I couldn't be more excited. I too am uncomfortable with the idea that Proteus was created on purpose, though I kind of called it here after the Goldballs issue (it's the Goldballs issue forever and ever). I think the idea that we have to accept that all of this has been part of a big plan, that every hosed up thing with the X-Men has been allowed to happen by Xavier and Moira is... distressing. But that poo poo comes with big retcons. It's either something that Hickman and Co. is just hoping we take as a new truth in the stories OR there's an in-story reason for all of this. I think the mind-resets of Xavier are the most likely explanation (though there's still questions on how that would functionally work). Remember that in the printing error in HOX 2, it had Moira's fake death as being AFTER Genosha and Hickman came out and explicitly stated that's wrong (because it was; Moira died before Morrison's run). I think him calling that out is pretty important regarding the discussion here because that seems like a good point to make Xavier "forget" about a lot of things to allow them to happen... including the death of 16M mutants. Moira states pretty explicitly that if she doesn't ACTIVELY do things to gently caress with the timeline, then it plays out in a certain way. Pulling herself off the board and getting Xavier (and Magneto?) to forget what's come before means things will just move ahead and maybe that's best when faced with the idea trying to prevent a (necessary?) genocide. The other thing that stands out in terms of revelations here is the idea that Moira dying does indeed erase timelines. Which is... loving insane. The implications of that are potentially very big, and at the very least it gives Marvel an out to erase the Krakoa stuff whenever they want to move back to the old ways. Hickman did say that he is planning on putting his toys away when he's done and maybe that's in reference to this. And considering how they hand-waved post-Secret Wars as "oh, this is just the next multiverse in a series of multiverses," Moira's death would essentially be the same thing, right?
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Oct 9, 2019 20:42
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Wanderer posted:At least with Magneto, there's that note in Moira's conspicuously undated journal that they lose him at one point. Yeah, I generally agree with this thought. He goes out of his way- through Moira's journal- to make a big deal about Magneto not quite buying into Moira's plan from the get-go. "Losing" him fits right in with his generally contentious relationship with Xavier. Though it still strains the story when he was headmaster of the school for a while and also OH YEAH WHEN HE TORTURED MOIRA FOR DE-AGING HIM AND MAKING HIM NICER IN THE PROCESS. Like, if he knew about Moira then then I think that'd be an appropriate time for him to drop the bomb about her true self... unless of course his knowledge of that was erased in the de-aging process.
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Oct 9, 2019 20:46
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Archyduchess posted:I really don't like this implication that Xavier has just been putting on a song and dance in every monologue he's given over the past five decades of comics. I'm also not sure when this fall-out with Magneto alluded to in the text piece happens, how long it lasts, what's been quietly retconned-- like, I don't know, was ripping Wolverine's adamantium out part of the plan? Was the Mutant Massacre part of the plan? Did they have any sort of heads-up on Cassandra Nova and Genosha-- for that matter, was Genosha always doomed to failure? Was the Dark Phoenix stuff something they could have prepared for or did prepare for or was that a fresh wrinkle? It just opens up a lot of questions completely separate from the characterization stuff, and maybe in a different context I'd be very interested in seeing those questions get resolved, but right now it seems like a weirdly myopic approach to writing shared characters in a shared universe. I think this what bothers me too. Like I said, I don't like writers being slaves to continuity or past stories, but as is, the Genosha thing feels the most damning. Even worse considering Xavier specifically called that event out as a reason to justify how he is acting toward humanity (even though it was Cassandra Nova pulling it off, not humans but oh well)
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Oct 9, 2019 21:04
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Did I miss the reason why Xavier/Magneto/Moira waited until now to start a mutant nation? Why didn’t they do this from the start, even without the resurrection team or Krakoa pills?
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Oct 9, 2019 21:20
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Web Jew.0 posted:Did I miss the reason why Xavier/Magneto/Moira waited until now to start a mutant nation? Why didn’t they do this from the start, even without the resurrection team or Krakoa pills? This is also bothering me. But honestly they can wave all these questions away by saying "Because this is what Moira said to do."
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Oct 9, 2019 21:37
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Huh, that was kind of a letdown. The secret of Moira's sixth life was ... it was actually the life we were watching in the far future. Not really much of a twist, beyond finally letting us know when the stuff with the Phalanx takes place. I'm not even sure what was the revelation she was supposed to have had. The real enemy is... humans, not machines? But the humans were the enemy all along, they were the ones who made the machines. And the Phalanx isn't necessarily inevitable, there's no telling if the Phalanx would have come if she hadn't reset the other timelines. And what's so special about what she's doing with the current timeline? The secret she revealed to Xavier was that they always lose... but we already knew that. And we've known she told Xavier about her other lives since the second book. This seems like just another try at averting the mutant genocide, like she's done with her other lifetimes. Maybe I was hoping for too much, but I thought there would be some big revelation here that would make you view the rest of the series in a different light. But no, everything besides finding out about Moira's powers and mutant resurrections is really just stage-setting for the new X books.
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Oct 9, 2019 21:48
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Web Jew.0 posted:Did I miss the reason why Xavier/Magneto/Moira waited until now to start a mutant nation? Why didn’t they do this from the start, even without the resurrection team or Krakoa pills? Because that's what they did in Moira V. The Sentinels came for them anyway. The theory of Moira X is that that if you can leverage political, economic, as well as mutant power you can get onto the board as a player to be reckoned with rather than just a piece to be removed.
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Oct 9, 2019 21:49
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Web Jew.0 posted:Did I miss the reason why Xavier/Magneto/Moira waited until now to start a mutant nation? Why didn’t they do this from the start, even without the resurrection team or Krakoa pills? Because a nation without recognized sovereignty is no nation at all. And without the drugs that Krakoa allowed them to create they had no leverage to gain or maintain that sovereignty. Without that leverage it wouldn't be a nation, it would just be a target.
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Oct 9, 2019 21:57
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Genosha was a recognized nation and most of the world didn't give a gently caress when they were blown up. Official recognition matters less than providing something the rest of the world wants, which is the point if the X-drugs. Even if Emma Frost hadn't used her powers to push the UN resolution Krakoa would still be a de facto nation because they had something other people wanted and invasion wouldn't let other countries take it.
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Oct 9, 2019 22:05
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I think the point of the 6th life is that it made Moira give up on Xavier’s plan for good. In her next 3 lives she became an assassin, teamed up with magneto, and teamed up with apocalypse. Now she’s teamed up with Xavier again, but it a very different way. Also the 6th life confirmed some shenanigans about black holes being connected to all time and space, so they can survive beyond her timeline annihilation powers.
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Oct 9, 2019 22:05
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enigmahfc posted:I think this what bothers me too. Like I said, I don't like writers being slaves to continuity or past stories, but as is, the Genosha thing feels the most damning. Even worse considering Xavier specifically called that event out as a reason to justify how he is acting toward humanity (even though it was Cassandra Nova pulling it off, not humans but oh well) That's actually why, in his big speech, Xavier doesn't accuse the humans of killing 16 million mutants; he accuses them of standing by and doing nothing while 16 million mutants were killed. I honestly don't know how much of the information Xavier got from Moira leads to "oh poo poo we should have known about Genosha," though, because if those are alternate timelines whose divergence point is Moira's birth, who knows how much butterfly effect poo poo is going on? For all we know, in most timelines undergrad Moira Kinross never wrote a paper that sparked an idea in the mind of a university professor who wrote an article that helped Philip Moreau develop the processes that he took to the Genoshan government to serve as their first Genegineer and help them build their 'green and pleasant land' so that Genosha isn't actually a thing. I'd be leery of pointing at knowledge of Moira's past lives as providing concrete and actionable intelligence about specific events in this timeline. It's good for seeing the broad strokes ("we... always lose?") but not necessarily the specific events.
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Oct 9, 2019 22:06
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Yeah, the Genoshan genocide doesn't happen in other the previous lives and a good reason for Charles to start thinking "maybe Moira doesn't know everything we need to know."
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Oct 9, 2019 22:15
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So they should have kept Krakoa the first time they ran into it and they should have monetized Utopia.
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Oct 9, 2019 22:22
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Beerdeer posted:So they should have kept Krakoa the first time they ran into it and they should have monetized Utopia. It’s simple really, you pave paradise and put up a parking lot
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Oct 9, 2019 22:25
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Beerdeer posted:So they should have kept Krakoa the first time they ran into it and they should have monetized Utopia. That Krakoa may have been a little too murder-y to get on side when they first met. Much in the same way Moira indicated there was no chance at recruiting Apocalypse when he first revealed himself.
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Oct 9, 2019 22:27
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Weird thought experiment, pre HoxPox ,who was the most important X-Men character who's never died? Beast, Iceman and Storm are the three that jump out to me but I'm not sure if they haven't actually died at some point.
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Oct 9, 2019 22:28
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Sandwolf posted:It’s simple really, you pave paradise and put up a parking lot Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone?
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Oct 9, 2019 22:29
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Beerdeer posted:So they should have kept Krakoa the first time they ran into it and they should have monetized Utopia. Has Moira tried... capitalism? I smell Life XI.
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Oct 9, 2019 22:37
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