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Cessna posted:I know this may sound a bit silly and maudlin, but we really appreciated those letters. I know the school got a nice letter back from the unit they were all sent to. It's probably still framed in the display cabinet in the hallway outside the office. I wish I could remember any more details than that.
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Oct 23, 2019 20:00
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Soon after the US arrived and there were women soldiers driving trucks around in public a bunch of Saudi women staged a protest where they drove in public too and were promptly all arrested. Nearly 30 years later, there has actually been movement of any kind on that topic again. Sort of. Maybe. But no, the rate of crimes and disruption from troops in Desert Storm were very very low for i believe a number of reasons. 1: It was doubly emphasised to not. 2: No alcohol permitted 3: They were generally kept outside of civillian areas in large tent encampments 4: A high level of general activity in preparing to actually fight 5: The very closed off nature of Saudi society
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Oct 23, 2019 20:04
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Cessna posted:During the "Desert Shield" stage we drove around quite a bit and would occasionally cross paths with other units. Once we ran into a French Foreign Legion armored car/recon unit. We stopped and ate together. They broke out a bottle of wine. The Air Force still flies alcohol in for the USMTM guys, it basically gets quasi-smuggled into Eskan Village. It isn't like the Saudis don't know about this but I guess a sense of self preservation encourages one to look the other way. Some years ago the welcome packet for USMTM explained how the alcohol ration worked. Some House o' Saud prince found it and literally flipped his table he was so upset. The US general's response was to issue a formal apology, remove it from the booklet, and continue alcohol smuggling operations as usual.
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Oct 23, 2019 20:05
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Polyakov posted:Soon after the US arrived and there were women soldiers driving trucks around in public a bunch of Saudi women staged a protest where they drove in public too and were promptly all arrested. So is it true that the mere presence of Western forces in KSA radicalized fundamentalist Muslims (Wahabists?) and created Osama bin Laden's obsession with destroying America or is that just an easy narrative
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Oct 23, 2019 20:10
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Polyakov posted:1: It was doubly emphasised to not. Re: 3 and 5, I saw Saudi civilians a few times when were over there. - At the very start of the deployment when we were stuck in Al Jubayil we saw a few dockworkers. - On the drive from Al Jubayil out to the desert we drove through the port and somehow didn't squash any civilian cars. - At the rest areas there were a few folks working at the camps - cooks, maintenance workers - but I am fairly sure they were foreign nationals working in Saudi Arabia. But beyond that there was next to no contact. Oh, also - we saw some locals living in tents out in the desert, bedouin-style, once or twice. We talked with them through our interpreters and they were really cool. After the war we were stuck with a few of the towed-line-charge trailers that we couldn't send back to the states. We spray-painted over the serial numbers and gave them to the locals, they were really happy and made us a nice dinner in trade.
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Oct 23, 2019 20:17
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Polyakov posted:There is a whole song and dance (and i mean REALLY elaborate) that the hosue of Saud are doing. Remember that until 2004 Jews werent allowed to enter Saudi Arabia, non muslims are still not allowed in Mecca and parts of Medina. I dont think non muslims were allowed into Medina until the 2000's, maps of Saudi Arabia even are sufficiently sensetive topics that T-Shirts being sold with maps of Saudi Arabia were brought up in a meeting between the US and Saudi commanders in chief (Norman Schawzkopf and Prince Khalid). A significant Iraqi propaganda message is about non Muslims and non Arabs in the holy land going to go and defile up a storm, the structure of Saudi society is loving nuuuuuts. So you have the house of Saud who really want the US there, and are fighting a significant internal battle against the really nutty Islamists to do it. The US also wants to be there but they and the House of Saud together are having to try to keep things to the state where these clerics arent going to try and overthrow the government. So in that context i suspect it was a nice confluence of just let them wear themselves out on this so we dont have to have the very difficult conversation about say Jewish US service members having their services in the kingdom (For reference that was solved in part by flying them out into the gulf to worship there.) Or the slightly (but only slightly) less vicious topic of Christian ceremonies. Exactly how do they prove that you're a Muslim when you go to Mecca?
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Oct 23, 2019 20:21
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chitoryu12 posted:Exactly how do they prove that you're a Muslim when you go to Mecca? You say that there is no God but God and Mohammad is his messenger. Once you say that you're a Muslim. Keep in mind they take apostasy VERY seriously. (Edit: Or, more likely, get a religious leader to write a letter on your behalf if you're planning to travel.) Cessna fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Oct 23, 2019 |
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Oct 23, 2019 20:26
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zoux posted:So is it true that the mere presence of Western forces in KSA radicalized fundamentalist Muslims (Wahabists?) and created Osama bin Laden's obsession with destroying America or is that just an easy narrative Its a very difficult question to answer. What we perceive as an acceptable rate of misdemeanour is certainly not what the salafist lot think is acceptable. The very presence of so many foreigners on KSA soil was an affront to them so there was no good solution. It was probably part of a societal unhappiness with the even glacial pace of saudi "liberalisation" of society of which that was a focus point. So its an oversimplification based on a lazy narrative.
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Oct 23, 2019 20:31
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HEY GUNS posted:absolutely coruscating with Enlisted Energy It's my new favorite thread story and it should be the topic title.
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Oct 23, 2019 20:34
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LingcodKilla posted:One Saudi woman married an enlisted soldier, immigrated to the US, got bored when he got deployed again, made friends with a stripper at an on base laundry mat, became a stripper and divorced him.
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Oct 23, 2019 20:36
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LingcodKilla posted:One Saudi woman married an enlisted soldier, immigrated to the US, got bored when he got deployed again, made friends with a stripper at an on base laundry mat, became a stripper and divorced him. It was a marine and I thought she was Bahraini. Either way they made a lifetime movie about it.
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Oct 23, 2019 20:39
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FrangibleCover posted:Could she sheik that rear end? sheik sheik sheik, sheik djibouti
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Oct 23, 2019 20:40
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Tias posted:I have a lot of weird glimpses about the gulf wars in my early memory. I recall news anchors saying with certainty that the Iraqi army placed persisting VX bombs under bridges and in tunnels where the marines were expected to advance. gently caress, no effort was spared in making them look like monsters. When I was small, I knew two countries with similar names, Iraq and Iran were at war, and clearly Iraq was the good guy as it was physically smaller The Gulf war I suppose, but I was looking at that through the MSM so it was mostly noise
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Oct 23, 2019 20:59
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https://twitter.com/realtimewwii/status/1187097273852932101?s=21
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Oct 23, 2019 21:11
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chitoryu12 posted:Exactly how do they prove that you're a Muslim when you go to Mecca? A bunch of muslim states actually print your religion in your passport.
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Oct 23, 2019 21:14
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FastestGunAlive posted:It was a marine and I thought she was Bahraini. Either way they made a lifetime movie about it. I heard the story on NPR and I wouldn’t be surprised if it happened more than once.
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Oct 23, 2019 21:18
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FastestGunAlive posted:It was a marine and I thought she was Bahraini. Either way they made a lifetime movie about it. Thanks to this PFC for causing 9/11
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Oct 23, 2019 21:19
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Tias posted:A bunch of muslim states actually print your religion in your passport. What if you're American or from Europe?
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Oct 23, 2019 21:24
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Solaris 2.0 posted:What if you're American or from Europe? Your local Imam would certify you.
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Oct 23, 2019 21:26
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yeah, like you also need a note from your bishop to go to mt athos i think
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Oct 23, 2019 21:28
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LingcodKilla posted:If you don’t consider that a possibility when joining then I don’t know know what to tell you. There was a time when there weren't forever wars. My brother joined a non-US army on a 20 year contract in 1986 and was somewhat disappointed to be sent to Afghanistan in the last year of his service.
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Oct 23, 2019 21:30
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It's very hard to overstate either the extraordinary radicalism of Saudi religious extremists or the absolute depths of the cynicism and self interest of the Saudi Monarchy. The Saudi political establishment during the Gulf War was still traumatized by the 1979 Grand Mosque seizure. Basically a group of several hundred ex-National Guard got it into their heads that one Mohammed Abdullah al-Qahtani was the Mahdi, basically an Islamic version of the messiah who is supposed to appear before judgement day and the apocalypse. As part of their program of rejuvenating Islam they believed they had to purge corrupt elements like the Saudi Monarchy and fulfill elements of traditional Muslim prophesy. To this end they decided to needed to seize control of the Grand Mosque in Mecca which houses the Kaaba. They were able to smuggle multiple tons of weapons and supplies in advance of the operation and captured hundreds of hostages taking the building. Then. . . they just kind of sat there? Some commentators have said if they'd tried they could probably have seized the royal palace in Riyadh and even overthrown the monarchy. However they didn't have any plans that elaborate. They kind of just expected that taking the Mosque would trigger the end times and God would initiate a new Caliphate or something. Their entire plan revolved around triggering divine intervention by fulfilling prophecies. They were totally convinced of the truth of their esoteric religious interpretations. Despite the delusions of the hostage takers, the Saudi efforts to retake the Mosque were a disaster. It took over two weeks and ended with soldiers calling in armored vehicles and clearing the dense networks of tunnels under Mecca with gas and grenades, room by room, slaughtering militants and hostages alike. By some estimates over a 1000 people, mostly hostages died. The Saudi command was so inept they had to go through the motions of converting French Gendarmerie to Islam so they could come to Mecca and supervise the operation, besides relying on lots of other western experts to man helicopters and the like. At the end of it all the surviving terrorists were gruesomely decapitated in public squares around Saudi Arabia. Instead of cracking down on religious extremism the Saudi Monarchy instead turn in the opposite direction, doubling down on their deference to the ulema and instituting even more severe restrictions on women and religious life. Instead of controlling extremism, Saudi leaders would instead try and funnel their energy abroad into places like Afghanistan where they would be the Soviet's problem. In hindsight, this may have been a bit short sighted!  above: smoke rising above the Grand Mosque. Breaking through the defenders perimeter required the use of armored vehicles and heavy weapons. Below: a Saudi soldier inside the centuries old labyrinth of tunnels below the Mosque. Gas proved ineffective at driving the militants out.
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Oct 23, 2019 21:34
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I think the controversy is more that until recently in games you just played as the Honourable No Different From Their Enemies Except Very Elite (But Less So Than The SS) And Also All The Best Guns And Tanks Wehrmacht and now for some reason people are more interested in something resembling the actual Wehrmacht. I wonder if a video game could tastefully depict the way the Wehrmacht used old men and Hitler Youth as soldiers towards the end of the war. A game where you can shoot Nazi kids would almost certainly touch off a controversy and no brick and mortar stores would sell it.
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Oct 23, 2019 21:36
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Chamale posted:I wonder if a video game could tastefully depict the way the Wehrmacht used old men and Hitler Youth as soldiers towards the end of the war. A game where you can shoot Nazi kids would almost certainly touch off a controversy and no brick and mortar stores would sell it. Tabletop wargames do this: 
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Oct 23, 2019 21:53
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From an article on vox:quote:Can non-Muslims do the hajj? I can't imagine trying to do this, it seems shockingly disrespectful.
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Oct 23, 2019 21:58
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I want to see inside the kaaba but that's about it. A picture would suffice
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Oct 23, 2019 22:08
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I looked this up and turns out the first recorded case was that of Ludovico di Varthema, who enrolled as a Mamluk to make the trip in 1503.
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Oct 23, 2019 22:10
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Milo and POTUS posted:I want to see inside the kaaba but that's about it. A picture would suffice It's not a secret:  There are Youtube videos. Edit: https://ilmfeed.com/9-photos-from-inside-the-kaba/ Another edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IiC0MSScGY Cessna fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Oct 23, 2019 |
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Oct 23, 2019 22:11
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Cessna posted:Tabletop wargames do this: I like how the first thing your eye is drawn is the fat Göring-ish officer, then you pan over all the models and take it in, and return to the officer. Prolly while shamelessly imagining his biting down on a cyanide capsule a day or two later. At least that's what I iùgine.
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Oct 23, 2019 22:17
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I think the controversy around battlefield v was about having a single player mission where you play as Nazis rather than multiplayer. You play as a Tiger crew in the Battle of Berlin. I think the controversy blew over quickly because few people care about battlefield single player and the mission was generally regarded as not sympathetic to the Nazis. Can’t say myself as I have not bothered with any of the battlefield v campaign. That or it was glossed over by the outraged chuds being mad over the inclusion of women and minorities as multiplayer characters. LingcodKilla posted:I heard the story on NPR and I wouldn’t be surprised if it happened more than once. True true
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Oct 23, 2019 22:20
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I like how the first thing your eye is drawn is the fat Göring-ish officer, then you pan over all the models and take it in, and return to the officer. Prolly while shamelessly imagining his biting down on a cyanide capsule a day or two later. At least that's what I iùgine. The saddest thing to me that kid in the greatcoat. How many of those kids did the SS kill for being human and trying to run?
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Oct 23, 2019 22:30
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SeanBeansShako posted:The saddest thing to me that kid in the greatcoat. How many of those kids did the SS kill for being human and trying to run? For all it’s silly moments Fury had a decent scene about this.
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Oct 23, 2019 22:31
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Cessna posted:From an article on vox: On the other hand, imagine the street cred.
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Oct 23, 2019 22:41
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Didn't exactly end well for the last dude who was proud on hoodwinking Islamic culture. Or his brother. Or the army he was attached to.
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Oct 23, 2019 22:46
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FastestGunAlive posted:I think the controversy around battlefield v was about having a single player mission where you play as Nazis rather than multiplayer. You play as a Tiger crew in the Battle of Berlin. I think the controversy blew over quickly because few people care about battlefield single player and the mission was generally regarded as not sympathetic to the Nazis. Can’t say myself as I have not bothered with any of the battlefield v campaign. Yeah, there was nothing favorable to the Nazis in that chapter. It opens with the main character telling of an incident from his childhood where he was punished because his friends stole from a store (his father told him "you may not have stolen anything yourself, but you were there". It shows corpses of people hanging from lampposts who were executed for cowardice or treason. The crew member who gets separated from the tank is later found hanging from a lamppost himself. At the end, when the tank is broken down, one of the crew members tries to surrender, and the young and brainwashed member of the crew shoots him in the back.
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Oct 23, 2019 22:49
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Cessna posted:During the "Desert Shield" stage we drove around quite a bit and would occasionally cross paths with other units. Once we ran into a French Foreign Legion armored car/recon unit. We stopped and ate together. They broke out a bottle of wine. I know some fellows who were peacekeepers in Kosovo in the early 2000's and they said the same about the Armee de Terre (I think, the regular French army). Wine was a part of the rations, not that the soldiers were plastered, at least in public.
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Oct 23, 2019 23:02
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xthetenth posted:Nah, that's the ASM-N-2 Bat which is a perfectly normal radar guided glide bomb. Belatedly, no, that's the pigeon bomb. Listen carefully for the clucking sound.
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Oct 23, 2019 23:35
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Even if you are islamic getting permission to go on hajj is not easy. There's a lot more people who want to go each year than can possibly fit, to the point that there's a lottery for who gets to go.
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Oct 23, 2019 23:41
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Siivola posted:I looked this up and turns out the first recorded case was that of Ludovico di Varthema, who enrolled as a Mamluk to make the trip in 1503. This guy is simultaneously an incredible badass and a huge piece of poo poo. Dude must have had a silver tongue to be able to pull all that off.
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Oct 23, 2019 23:48
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Siivola posted:I looked this up and turns out the first recorded case was that of Ludovico di Varthema, who enrolled as a Mamluk to make the trip in 1503. Was it taboo for Muslims to describe Mecca to Christians, or was this guy just not satisfied with asking?
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Oct 24, 2019 00:05
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