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I know Hawaii is a dem machine state but how exactly did Tulsi get in good enough with the machine to become a Hawaiian congress critter?
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Oct 30, 2019 15:46
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Does anyone else thing Donald Jr is going to wake up one day with Lowtax spine? He is such a loving jellyfish. edit: trying to find a picture of a dog near jellyfish on google images just made me depressed because its full of dogs being attacked by jellyfish. Don't search it.  GoutPatrol fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Oct 30, 2019 |
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Oct 30, 2019 15:46
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Prester Jane posted:It was always obvious he was murdered. He had dirt on exceedingly powerful people- of course he mysteriously committed suicide in prison before the trial. It's more perplexing that the Shady Rich Overlords even felt the need to hide/couch it as a suicide....
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Oct 30, 2019 15:46
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And yet you continue to post, unimpeded. I don't really understand your argument - the kid was doing bad things, but there were adults there also doing bad things, so we shouldn't focus on the kid. Ok, except the kid's rich parents are suing the Washington Post (lol), so uh, they made him the focus. The kid represents exactly the kind of mindset and ideology of the Republican Party in the era of Trump. The ability to stand on the street and smugly look at a member of a minority while wearing white supremacist political iconography, knowing that you are perfectly safe to do so despite your political movement actively making the world unsafe for the other person. It's a power play, a reinforcement of the existing power structures of society.
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Oct 30, 2019 15:46
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FlamingLiberal posted:Some of what Gabbard is saying is correct. There were a lot of reports of Turkey-backed radical militias executing Kurdish civilians or kidnapping them during the invasion of Northern Syria Erdogan did turn a blind eye to a lot of ISIS stuff that went through Turkey so it's not like he's innocent. Charlz Guybon posted:Can he really drive a Caterpillar? Very skeptical on that claim, beyond maybe driving it across a parking lot. I doubt he can operate it like a professional. He can sit in one and make big boy noises about driving it about. His dad is similarly qualified to drive a big rig. Prester Jane posted:It was always obvious he was murdered. He had dirt on exceedingly powerful people- of course he mysteriously committed suicide in prison before the trial. Murdered/Actually did kill himself isn't much of a distinction in this case because he should have never been allowed to do the latter in the first place. It's murder by inaction.
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Oct 30, 2019 15:46
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Charlz Guybon posted:I doubt he can operate [...] like a professional.
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Oct 30, 2019 15:47
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Lightning Knight posted:This sounds like the fanfiction people write about Putin or Xi too lol. ehhhhh Erdogan is definitely not opposed to working with ISIS/using them to his ends. He bought oil from them for years on the DL, let them resupply over the border, etc. He's certainly willing to let them run roughshod over Syria. Erdogan also rose to his new heights of power on the back of a religious fundamentalist movement. Probably not fair to characterize it as the same as ISIS (basically a doughy polo'd alt-righter to ISIS's full on death's head SS uniform fanatic) but you can kinda squint and see base similarities. So she's not completely off base with her characterization. Just hyperbole-ing all over the damned place. That said, Tulsi using "evil muslim empire" as a scare tactic is totally on brand for her.
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Oct 30, 2019 15:47
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Sorry in advance for the "tedium" of making a post on the forum you're in charge of! What you said is certainly correct, but your focus on this kid, as opposed to the adults who do the same, the adults who organized it, the structures that encourage it, is 100% because of the picture and all the assumptions people made when they first saw it. quote:Thank you for this lesson - again I'll point out that the truly vile anti-Native stuff was said by the third party protesting there, which is completely discounted because the narrative of minority-on-minority racism and sexism doesn't lather up a really good head of steam like the idea of a rich white kid getting in a minority's face. Seriously, look up some of the stuff they said to the old guy and the woman he was with. quote:You're moving the goalposts again - I never said the kid shouldn't be approached and told he's an rear end in a top hat, I think he probably is an insufferable rear end in real life. Making this kid the poster child for the whole movement, wishfully hoping the child gets shipped to the gulags, weird daydreams about how it would feel to punch them is deplorable. CascadeBeta posted:My point has always been there's actual honest to God causes people could contribute to that actually matter as opposed to fighting trolls on internet forums whole lying to yourself that you're doing good so you don't actually have to do anything.
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Oct 30, 2019 15:47
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I’m sure you can learn the basics of how to drive a tractor in less than an afternoon.
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Oct 30, 2019 15:48
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OAquinas posted:That said, Tulsi using "evil muslim empire" as a scare tactic is totally on brand for her. This is the part I was referring to. Tulsi's analysis of the situation in Turkey is straight-forwardly neoconservative - the Turkish are bad and evil because they are different and have alien, evil motivations, and we cannot negotiate with them. The idea that Erdogan is just a dude, who happens to be a) an rear end in a top hat and b) in control of a major regional military power and willing to murder people for material gain for himself/people he favors, is not an option in this scenario. It has to be some grand strategy to take over the world, or in this case the region, that reads like Tom Clancy.
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Oct 30, 2019 15:49
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A hired gun expert will always reach the conclusion the client wants.
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Oct 30, 2019 15:50
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:I’m sure you can learn the basics of how to drive a tractor in less than an afternoon. Great. Now I have the combine harvester song stuck in my head. Thanks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bjvffx-h2KM
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Oct 30, 2019 15:50
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Lightning Knight posted:This is the part I was referring to. yeah, while erdogan is a Bad Dude his interest here is actually quite simple a little while back his popularity dipped, and part of the coalition that blocked him from (iirc) making constitutional changes was a turkish kurd party. turkey had made peace a while back with its kurd separatists, there was no longer an active issue there. but erdogan wanted power, so he restarted turkey's war against its kurdish population and this is just an extension of that (all the more necessary as his popularity is dipping again)
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Oct 30, 2019 15:52
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OAquinas posted:ehhhhh Yeah the truth is somewhere in between. Ergodan is probably just a normal autocrat, not a religious theocrat. But you can’t ignore how he partnered with the far right to help secure his power, or how he is ramping up the fight against the Kurds. The Kurds are mostly Muslim but they are socially progressive Muslims who give women a lot of freedoms compared to other groups. That is in direct conflict with a lot of fundamentalists. Saying he wants to form a caliphate is anti-Muslim fear mongering though.
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Oct 30, 2019 15:52
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The Puppy Bowl posted:I know Hawaii is a dem machine state but how exactly did Tulsi get in good enough with the machine to become a Hawaiian congress critter? her father was an homophobic cult member who was a local politician who got tulsi into politics early as a second generation politician and cultist she was a local and state politician before she joined the military and then managed to get a lot of national attention
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Oct 30, 2019 15:53
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https://twitter.com/DeMarcoReports/status/1189541698528890882?s=20
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Oct 30, 2019 15:54
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As usual these dead gay forums are a good year plus ahead of the national discourse The Luxury of Political Moderation https://nyti.ms/2MWLxoc Full text : THE STONE The Luxury of Political Moderation A lack of moral imagination can make deeply ethical actions seem like crimes. By Jamie Aroosi Mr. Aroosi is a senior research fellow at the Hong Kierkegaard Library at St. Olaf College. Oct. 30, 2019, 6:00 a.m. ET Image Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was arrested on April 12, 1963, along with the Rev. Ralph Abernathy, left, for demonstrating without a permit in the business section of Birmingham, Ala. During his arrest he wrote “Letter from Birmingham Jail.” Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was arrested on April 12, 1963, along with the Rev. Ralph Abernathy, left, for demonstrating without a permit in the business section of Birmingham, Ala. During his arrest he wrote “Letter from Birmingham Jail.”CreditAssociated Press The Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.’s “Letter from Birmingham Jail” was written as a response to a group of “white moderate” clergy members who claimed to be supportive of the civil rights movement — but who had also called Dr. King’s activism both “unwise and untimely.” For these moderates, civil rights activists were not courageous adversaries of a horribly unjust society, but lawless “outside agitators” threatening the tranquillity of the status quo. And so, rather than commending these activists, they condemned them and blamed the outbreak of violence on their resistance to Jim Crow rather than on Jim Crow itself. In his response to their calls for slow and incremental change, Dr. King made a provocative claim: He argued that these white moderates were a potentially greater threat than the members of the Ku Klux Klan. Whereas the “ill will” of the rabid segregationist was out in the open and could therefore be combated, the “shallow understanding from people of good will” threatened to enervate the civil rights movement into acceptance of an intolerable status quo. For King, moderation in the face of injustice might have been a worse problem than injustice itself. A half-century later we find ourselves, domestically and globally, in a similar crisis, arguably more divided than ever. Those fighting against inequality, sexism, racism and xenophobia face an entrenched and increasingly emboldened reactionary opposition. In between them lies our current equivalent of Dr. King’s “white moderate.” And these moderates, with their outsized political power and their nostalgia for a lost status quo, similarly represent a greater threat to progress than do the reactionaries. As in the past, today’s moderate is generally not the victim of contemporary injustices. While many moderates acknowledge the existence of these injustices, their relative comfort allows them the luxury of denying their severity. In the United States, a spate of policies and movements that promise to help alleviate these problems have emerged — Medicare for All, the cancellation of student debt, the elimination of ICE and the Green New Deal, and Black Lives Matter and the #MeToo movement. But as in Dr. King’s time, today’s moderate only pays lip service to the general goals of these policies and movements while also condemning their stridency. For them, this stridency, in its potential upending of their comfortable status quo, seems a greater threat than the injustice it means to address. As Dr. King understood, the problem he was facing — and that we now face again — is the problem of moral imagination. Moderates might have the “good will” that leads them to acknowledge injustice, but their very moderation is indicative of a “shallow understanding” that is emptied of the pain of those who currently suffer. For these moderates, injustice is a foreign affair, an abstract problem to be solved. Their response then lacks the urgency that a true understanding would bring. Learning how to expand their moral universe — learning how to turn opponents into allies — is just as pressing a problem as ever. Almost two centuries ago, Søren Kierkegaard addressed this very issue. In his work “Fear and Trembling,” he went to great lengths to praise the biblical Abraham for his apparent willingness to sacrifice his son Isaac. And while Kierkegaard’s praise of Abraham has led to no small number of misinterpretations, given how horrific it appears to be, Kierkegaard was not suggesting that we too should be willing to commit such an obviously terrible act. Instead, as Dr. King’s “Letter from Birmingham Jail” helps reveal, Kierkegaard used this story to demonstrate how, to those with a more limited moral imagination, actions which are deeply ethical can often appear as the greatest of crimes — as if we were willing to sacrifice that which is most dear. As Kierkegaard understood, we typically make judgments from the point of view of the conventional ethics in which we are raised, but these ethics are always tied to the particular society we inhabit. And while Kierkegaard realized that our particular social ethics might contain a measure of truth, perhaps even a great deal of it, our adherence to them is often inauthentic. That is, we often act ethically because we have been socialized into a particular ethical worldview and not because we have any deeper underlying ethical commitments. This means that there might be ethical actions that fall outside of our ethical horizon. But as we have each been raised to believe in the supremacy of our ethical reality — we each believe that our values are the true values — the mere suggestion that an ethical reality lies beyond our horizon threatens to undermine our worldview. So while it is easy to say that Abraham is a criminal, because this is a judgment that we can make from within our ethical worldview, it is harder to accept the possibility that he might not be — because that requires that we accept that our worldview might have limits. Consequently, even the smallest of such transgressions threatens the integrity of our world. And they tend to elicit the most ruthless of responses. Several years after writing “Fear and Trembling,” Kierkegaard would write what is generally considered to be his “mature” ethics, in the aptly titled “Works of Love.” Unlike the different forms of social ethics that depend on our conformity, for Kierkegaard, love is the deepest expression of our authentic self. And when we learn to love, what we love is this same self in others. When we act out of love, we are not motivated by a fidelity to a particular set of social values, but by an authentic bond that unites all individuals on the basis of our shared humanity. In the earlier “Fear and Trembling,” Kierkegaard realizes that love is necessarily transgressive. Eschewing the conventional ethical motivation of social conformity, the loving individual is instead motivated by a sense of love that they have discovered within themselves. When the demands of love conform to social norms, such an individual might appear to be obeying them; but when their love conflicts with what their society dictates, the veil lifts, and their alternative ethical motivation is revealed. As Friedrich Nietzsche would write a few decades later, “Whatever is done from love always occurs beyond good and evil.” To those whose actions remain governed by an adherence to social norms, the very existence of love poses an existential threat. To much of 1960s America, white moderates certainly appeared to be acting ethically. But in Dr. King’s view, they were betraying their fellow human beings by choosing obedience to social norms above a higher form of justice, informed by love. If only these moderates could find the love that would authentically bind them to their fellow human beings, it would reveal to them “the deep groans and passionate yearnings of the oppressed race.” And with their moral universe so enlarged, rather than defending the status quo, these now former moderates would recognize the necessity of “lovingly” breaking “unjust laws.” Kierkegaard, too, faced with the transgressive nature of love, wanted his readers to realize that we have a choice. On the one hand, our fear of transgression might lead us to hold ever tighter onto the status quo, finding the comfort that conformity provides. But on the other hand, we might find the courage to withhold judgment, because reality is not always as it appears. And if we find this courage, we might also find a way to expand our moral imagination so that we see the deep bonds of love that often unite those who fight for social, political and economic justice. In order for this to happen, we have to leap beyond the narrow confines of our world in the vague hope that something else lies beyond. And while we can call this leap by many names, for Kierkegaard, its truest name was faith. Jamie Aroosi is a senior research fellow at the Hong Kierkegaard Library at St. Olaf College and the author of “The Dialectical Self: Kierkegaard, Marx, and the Making of the Modern Subject.” Now in print: “Modern Ethics in 77 Arguments,” and “The Stone Reader: Modern Philosophy in 133 Arguments,” with essays from the series, edited by Peter Catapano and Simon Critchley, published by Liveright Books.
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Oct 30, 2019 15:54
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Yeah Erdogan is a horrible person but I’m pretty sure he isn’t out to conquer the Levant.
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Oct 30, 2019 15:54
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Slowpoke! posted:Yeah the truth is somewhere in between. Ergodan is probably just a normal autocrat, not a religious theocrat. But you can’t ignore how he partnered with the far right to help secure his power, or how he is ramping up the fight against the Kurds. The Kurds are mostly Muslim but they are socially progressive Muslims who give women a lot of freedoms compared to other groups. That is in direct conflict with a lot of fundamentalists. erdogan is, iirc, an islamist of some variety (enough that back when turkey's military banned islamist parties via launching coups against them, he'd definitely have been deposed by now) but I don't know exactly how much. so he's probably, at least to our eyes, somewhat theocratic - but certainly not in the sense he'd crown himself caliph, just in the sense i suspect he's passed at least some religious laws.
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Oct 30, 2019 15:56
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also I would recommend listening to this https://twitter.com/WorstYearPod/status/1189311783711989763?s=19 for more on Tulsi, but despite it being live, I cant find a feed link at the moment
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Oct 30, 2019 15:56
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theflyingorc posted:It's perfectly fine to not want to personally wrestle with difficult people - especially if you're a member of a minority that has enough poo poo going on - and it isn't anyone's job or responsibility. But telling other people not to do it is ridiculous and the entire problem I have with CascadeBeta's posting on the topic. This is me agreeing with a theflyingorc post. This is also me agreeing that the counter arguments presented to TDD were actually good and potentially useful in this case. I've preached for years the futility of trying to argue with a narrative assist, ("never engage the outer barrative in good faith" and all that) but TDD isnt a Narrativist- even if his views have clearly been influenced to some degree by right wing Narrativism. There is tremendous value (especially in this thread), to be found in engauging actual right-wing arguments being made an actual good faith. This particular moment is extremely good for good faith takedowns of right wing arguments because there is a gigantic surge of (previously non-political) lurkers who are using this thread as kind of a crash course in trying to understand what the gently caress is happening in the United States. (For every person you see posting in this thread there are handily 10 to 15 lurkers, if not more.) All that aside I think for once tdd is actually on to something here because this threads overarching focus on seeing the Covington kid punished in some way instead of targeting the power structure that created him is.... well it's more than a little disappointing to be honest. Not a single person here has defended the kid or his actions or stated that he shouldn't have suffered some pretty significant consequences, the objection is to the people reveling in demonizing him/making him the focus of their ire. For myself I think it's lovely when the right-wing does it- and I take it very seriously that it's a moral responsibility to shut that nonsense down whenever and wherever it rears its ugly head.
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Oct 30, 2019 15:56
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Let’s come up with a typology of what characteristic someone whose mind can/can’t be changed. I suggest that anyone proudly wearing a neoswastika/maga-hat at hate rallies, is beyond saving with any reasonable expenditure of energy/effort. It’s not like it can’t happen, both clansmen and actual nazis has seen the error of their ways, but it’s incredible rare and needs an insane amount of of luck and fortuitous circumstances, on top of the insane efforts. In terms of this thread, I further suggest that someone who has been schooled, as well as had clearly and unequivocally demonstrated how wrong they are, as many times as TDD and still hang on to their regressive beliefs, is also beyond saving.
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Oct 30, 2019 15:57
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evilweasel posted:erdogan is, iirc, an islamist of some variety (enough that back when turkey's military banned islamist parties via launching coups against them, he'd definitely have been deposed by now) but I don't know exactly how much. so he's probably, at least to our eyes, somewhat theocratic - but certainly not in the sense he'd crown himself caliph, just in the sense i suspect he's passed at least some religious laws. And even in this context, Erdogan is still a person motivated by material interests the same as anyone else. Now, to be clear, Erdogan personally may have delusions of grandeur, but he's also just one person and the Turkish state is a systemic organization with a history of ethnically cleansing or genociding minority populations, so the idea that this is somehow a unique problem with him as opposed to a historical issue with the region is honestly just dumb.
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Oct 30, 2019 15:58
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OJ MIST 2 THE DICK posted:also I would recommend listening to this I listened to it this morning and it was pretty good. Her background is bananas
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Oct 30, 2019 15:59
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yronic heroism posted:A hired gun expert will always reach the conclusion the client wants. good reason not to trust someone hired by the US government to investigate the death of someone with incriminating evidence on the leader of the US government
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Oct 30, 2019 16:01
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Lightning Knight posted:And yet you continue to post, unimpeded. I don't really understand your argument - the kid was doing bad things, but there were adults there also doing bad things, so we shouldn't focus on the kid. Ok, except the kid's rich parents are suing the Washington Post (lol), so uh, they made him the focus. Imo the problem with focusing on the kid is that 1.)it's one focusing on the symptom and not the disease and 2.) its the leftist equivalent of broken windows policing*. What the kid did was exceedingly shity and he should have suffered some consequences, no dispute there. But the kid isn't the problem, hell even the kids actions in this case aren't the problem. The power structure and the ideology that sustains that power structure are the problems, the kid should barely be a sidenote in this discussion. *which isnt to say that this kid doing a racism was as harmless as breaking a window- the point is the focus should be on the reforming system and not on punishing each bad act
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Oct 30, 2019 16:02
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Barry Foster posted:TDD is a self-identified republican so don't think he's going 'both sides' with this I guess we're suspending the "don't post about other posters" rule when it comes to me for some reason, so I'll just correct this point. I didn't vote for Trump, and switched my affiliation to independent the day after Trumps "both sides" presser. I'll be voting Dem in 2020. People change, and I've definitely moderated my positions over time, in part because of the people here who are well-read and passionate about politics. (Also HOLY poo poo I started getting spammed with polling calls the second I switched my registration, pollsters love independents I guess)
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Oct 30, 2019 16:03
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OJ MIST 2 THE DICK posted:also I would recommend listening to this Even though the production values here are objectively poo poo, I can't recommend The Worst Year Ever podcast more as a piece of objective journalism. They dive deep into candidates and talk about people in a nuanced and informative way that you rarely find in media. Also, the guy on the tablet is Robert Evans, who is the host of Behind the Bastards, which is 100% an A++ podcast about the worst people in history. He went deep into Jeffrey Epstein for example and I view him as one of many well-intentioned sources who spread good information instead of nonsense. Also, as a jaded bastard, it was probably the only time this year where I've had to turn off the podcast and go scream into the void for a while. So if you like staring into the face of evil like I do, Behind the Bastards is for you! And I realize for many of us, that's not an endorsement, but I figure there are a few pain piggies out there who like that poo poo.
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Oct 30, 2019 16:03
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evilweasel posted:erdogan is, iirc, an islamist of some variety (enough that back when turkey's military banned islamist parties via launching coups against them, he'd definitely have been deposed by now) but I don't know exactly how much. so he's probably, at least to our eyes, somewhat theocratic - but certainly not in the sense he'd crown himself caliph, just in the sense i suspect he's passed at least some religious laws. I think that if he is it's more of a means to an end than his core identity. The end of course being him gaining more power. (Much like many of the rulers in the MENA region)
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Oct 30, 2019 16:03
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yronic heroism posted:A hired gun expert will always reach the conclusion the client wants. this is not always true. but when your hired expert tells you that they can't reach the conclusion you need, their report never sees the light of day.
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Oct 30, 2019 16:04
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Pottstown isn’t central PA. It’s 29 miles west of Philly and part of Montgomery county which went for Hillary. Though I have seen a couple stars and bars flying from brodozers in the area. And the Hill School Jr. attended literally sits above the rest of the town and has giant athletic fields fenced off so the filthy proles can’t get in. And if Jr. can operate a D10 blade, I’m sure as poo poo he drives it with the steering wheel instead of the foot controls like a poseur.
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Oct 30, 2019 16:04
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VitalSigns posted:good reason not to trust someone hired by the US government to investigate the death of someone with incriminating evidence on the leader of the US government Epstein had some real no poo poo ties to the American intelligence community and there is a real good case to be made that he was effectively operating a honeypot operation that targeted the megarich and powerful.
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Oct 30, 2019 16:04
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Taerkar posted:I think that if he is it's more of a means to an end than his core identity. yeah it's not relevant for what he's doing in syria, it's just useful to know i think its part of his identity enough considering that being an islamist for much of his early political career was...not a wise career move. previous islamist politicians had gotten executed by turkey's military. but at the end of the day, right now his identity is mostly motivated by retaining power.
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Oct 30, 2019 16:05
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Prester Jane posted:Imo the problem with focusing on the kid is that 1.)it's one focusing on the symptom and not the disease and 2.) its the leftist equivalent of broken windows policing*. What the kid did was exceedingly shity and he should have suffered some consequences, no dispute there. But the kid isn't the problem, hell even the kids actions in this case aren't the problem. The power structure and the ideology that sustains that power structure are the problems, the kid should barely be a sidenote in this discussion. I'm not sure I agree or disagree with you here because I'm having trouble parsing your argument but I would also point out that nobody gave a poo poo anymore about the Covington kid until his parents put him back in the news with their dumb lawsuit poo poo, so if they would just stop doing that people would forget about him lol. That one token Republican kid from Parkland got caught being super racist and didn't get let into Harvard and yet he's still doing tours on the right-wing grift circuit. It's hard to really gently caress your life up as a privileged white boy with well-off parents, all he would have to do is shut the gently caress up and everyone would forget he exists.
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Oct 30, 2019 16:05
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VitalSigns posted:good reason not to trust someone hired by the US government to investigate the death of someone with incriminating evidence on the leader of the US government on the one hand dueling expert reports are useful in illustrating where, exactly, the points of dispute lie. on the other hand i saw elsewhere this particular expert is a fox news contributor so i'd just toss that report right in the trash
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Oct 30, 2019 16:06
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Extremely online politics people have a weird Narnia fetish that drives them to find children and elevate then to generalship in the neverending war to score sick burns. Honestly if you put your kid in a position to end up in CNN you're probably a lovely parent.
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Oct 30, 2019 16:07
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TheDisreputableDog posted:I guess we're suspending the "don't post about other posters" rule when it comes to me for some reason, so I'll just correct this point. I didn't vote for Trump, and switched my affiliation to independent the day after Trumps "both sides" presser. I'll be voting Dem in 2020. People change, and I've definitely moderated my positions over time, in part because of the people here who are well-read and passionate about politics. Cool, glad to hear it. Mea culpa (on this, you're still chatting nonsense about The Covington Kid)
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Oct 30, 2019 16:07
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i should mention that a hired expert will only reach the conclusions you want them to reach if you correctly explain your bullshit theory to them ahead of time, instead of letting them get deposed before they fully understand your bullshit and just admit every single point that torpedoes it as if it was the most obvious thing in the world (well, for people in that industry, it was) my, that was a fun litigation. "your honor, both experts agree! the claimant is full of poo poo! you don't even need to listen to our expert, just look at what their expert said!"
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Oct 30, 2019 16:08
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I'd make a joke about the last horcrux but we all know it would never be in a library.
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Oct 30, 2019 16:09
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The Ronald Reagan Presidential Library burning down due to the incompetence of privatized, deregulated utilities would be the most poetic thing to happen in American politics in decades.
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Oct 30, 2019 16:11
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