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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:I haven't watched Discovery, but I think they may have taken the wrong lessons from DS9. They probably looked at that show and thought "Huh. Dark and gritty works" without realizing that in its way, DS9 is as optimistic as its predecessors (just not ridiculously utopian like TOS and especially TNG could be). That series was less about "dark for dark's sake" than interrogating Starfleet values by showing how hard it can be to live up to them when a) you live close to aliens who don't share those values, and b) you're in gray area situations like the Dominion War. I think the big thing about DS9 dark vs Disco dark is that when DS9 did a shades of grey (like with Section 31) it was posited as a bad thing, even if it was one of the protagonists doing it (and it very rarely was) whereas Disco goes full tilt "ends justify the means" attitude. Even when Enterprise tried that in season 3 we weren't supposed to like Archer doing those things, and he didn't like it either. In Disco we had admirals encouraging war crimes and completely ignoring how bloodthirsty their pet captain was. I wouldn't mind a show about how Starfleet became the way it was in TOS but the era for that is around the time of Enterprise, not just a handful of years before TOS. A show set like 20 years after the Federation founding could tell those stories but then we couldn't include 
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Oct 31, 2019 20:24
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| # ? May 14, 2024 23:36 |
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I understand it's a basic gatcha game with Star Trek skin but lol at the fact that ST: Timelines has five different types of currency and double lol that none of them are gold-pressed latinum
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Oct 31, 2019 20:29
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Humerus posted:I think the big thing about DS9 dark vs Disco dark is that when DS9 did a shades of grey (like with Section 31) it was posited as a bad thing, even if it was one of the protagonists doing it (and it very rarely was) whereas Disco goes full tilt "ends justify the means" attitude. Even when Enterprise tried that in season 3 we weren't supposed to like Archer doing those things, and he didn't like it either. In Disco we had admirals encouraging war crimes and completely ignoring how bloodthirsty their pet captain was. In fairness, I don't think we were supposed to like that stuff in Discovery either, but it is presented as the norm too often rather than the exception. There was too much emphasis on the grim stuff and they failed to adequetely juxtapose it against it against a humanistic setting in any meaningful way.
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Oct 31, 2019 20:31
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Snow Cone Capone posted:I understand it's a basic gatcha game with Star Trek skin but lol at the fact that ST: Timelines has five different types of currency Well... They say that Federation civilians don't use money, but currency isn't money....
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Oct 31, 2019 20:35
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Sash! posted:Well... They say that Federation civilians don't use money, but currency isn't money.... One of them is Federation Credits lol
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Oct 31, 2019 20:40
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It's so stupid but the plotlines and characters are so doofy the first chapter involves a conflict between the MU Klingon-Cardassian Alliance, regular TNG/DS9 Klingons, and...TOS-era Augments. Some of the top crew members I currently have: -Grand Nagus Zek -Beyond The Stars Armin Shimerman -Bajoran Solar-Sail Sisko, Commander Sisko, and Captain Sisko -Keevan -Richard Castillo -Hockey Kim -Vedek Winn -3 different versions of Kirk it's goofy as hell, last week's Event Prize rewards were Honey Bare Jadzia and Spider Barclay
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Oct 31, 2019 20:45
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Honey... bare Jadzia, you say.
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Oct 31, 2019 20:55
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Drink-Mix Man posted:In fairness, I don't think we were supposed to like that stuff in Discovery either, but it is presented as the norm too often rather than the exception. There was too much emphasis on the grim stuff and they failed to adequetely juxtapose it against it against a humanistic setting in any meaningful way. Right. The reason DS9 was able to do its darker take on things was two-fold. It was coming right off (and partially simultaneously with) unrelentingly optimistic TNG and presented a contrast. Also, even though DS9 was "darker", it was still fundamentally optimistic and most of the time the Federation was trying to do the right thing. In the Pale Moonlight is a brilliant episode, but it doesn't work without Sisko being fundamentally a proper moral Trek captain, even if he is rougher around the edges than Picard, and the circumstances being exceptional. If they did episodes like that all the time we wouldn't like it.
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Oct 31, 2019 20:57
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Kesper North posted:Honey... bare Jadzia, you say.  There's also, at least: Risa Jadzia TOS Jadzia Medieval Princess Holodeck Jadzia Alternate Future Jadzia Bell Riots Jadzia TNG Starfleet uniform Jadzia DS9 Starfleet uniform Jadzia Klingon Wedding Jadzia Night-Before-Klingon-Wedding Jadzia Mirror Universe Jadzia There's a lot of characters, it seems
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Oct 31, 2019 21:03
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Snow Cone Capone posted:I understand it's a basic gatcha game with Star Trek skin but lol at the fact that ST: Timelines has five different types of currency Well of course isn’t. You can’t replicate it.
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Oct 31, 2019 21:16
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Kibayasu posted:Well of course isn’t. You can’t replicate it. You can't replicate dilithium either 
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Oct 31, 2019 21:21
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Snow Cone Capone posted:You can't replicate dilithium either No but you can recrystallize it with high energy photons or some poo poo. On the money topic, I found this while searching for god knows what: http://brainknowsbetter.com/news/2013/4/17/why-star-treks-future-without-money-is-bogus I haven't read the whole thing yet but I am not smart enough to know if this is libertarian claptrap, or any other kind of claptrap, or what, but it's been interesting. Any econ brainiacs want to deconstruct it for people like me who get headaches just trying to do simple mental math?
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Oct 31, 2019 23:01
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I think it's fair because not having money implies a level of cooperation that I don't think is possible. Humanity can be way less lovely than we are now, but there's still going to be competition and a need for a means of exchange with each other that has a set, agreed upon value. You can still have an economy with money in a future that also has gotten rid of the brutalities of capitalism.
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Oct 31, 2019 23:07
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https://www.startrek.com/news/my-first-contact-connected-to-the-truth
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Oct 31, 2019 23:11
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Capitalism is a fairly recent invention, and societies had money long before it reared its ugly head. It's really, really not hard to grasp a society that both does not rely on money for survival but also has it for luxury goods and services.
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Oct 31, 2019 23:12
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People would still be aware of the concept of money even if it was not a daily reality, due to its presence in cultural materials etc. I would not be surprised either if there were some limited currency-equivalents with things like transporter credits or fastpass tickets to the holodeck, but Picard presumably knows he can make a general assertion without needing three paragraphs of caveating because after the Twitter wars of 20XX tenditious nitpicking in casual conversation became punishable by the lethal chambers.
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Oct 31, 2019 23:19
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Humerus posted:I think the big thing about DS9 dark vs Disco dark is that when DS9 did a shades of grey (like with Section 31) it was posited as a bad thing, even if it was one of the protagonists doing it (and it very rarely was) whereas Disco goes full tilt "ends justify the means" attitude. Even when Enterprise tried that in season 3 we weren't supposed to like Archer doing those things, and he didn't like it either. In Disco we had admirals encouraging war crimes and completely ignoring how bloodthirsty their pet captain was. The same DS9 for that matter? A lot of poo poo gets done in Discovery that is explicitly condemned by the protagonists. Sometimes it takes a while, and there isn't comeuppance for a few episodes, but cutting ethical corners is always presented as a bad thing. Sometimes the characters will nod along with a monster for a while, like with Lorca, before he goes full Space Admirals aren't the moral heart of the show, and never have been. Admiral Warcrimes made horrible decisions and we were meant to see them as such. Just like admirals in DS9 were vaguely okay with Section 31 and all that. I really feel like a lot of the moral complaints about Discovery come from people who haven't bothered to really follow it. And I understand why you wouldn't pay close attention when you have, with some justification, decided the whole thing is a mess. But to then claim that Discovery is the moral equivalent of 24 or whatever is absurd. Honestly the Enterprise stuff you pointed out was the only Star Trek that actually embraced torture and poo poo and presented it as justified. Discovery has never fallen to those depths.
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Nov 1, 2019 00:24
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Admiral Warcrimes is easily the most forgivable of Discovery's stuff since admirals being evil has been a running joke ever since TOS. That didn't bug me at all.
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Nov 1, 2019 00:27
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Anyone have a clip of Worf hating Romulans?
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Nov 1, 2019 01:02
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Arglebargle III posted:Anyone have a clip of Worf hating Romulans? Can't find a clip on youtube, but The Enemy (TNG 3x07) has some good ones. Here's one from the quotes section on the Memory Alpha page: "For what it's worth, I understand your bitterness." "With respect, sir, you cannot. I am asked to give up the very lifeblood of my mother and my father to those who murdered them." "Must you blame all Romulans for that?" "Yes." "Forever? What if some day the Federation made peace with the Romulans?" "Impossible." "That's what your people said several years ago about Humans. Think how many died on both sides in that war. Would you and I be here now like this if we hadn't been able to let go of the anger and the blame? Where does it end, Worf? If that Romulan dies, does his family carry the bitterness on another generation?" - Riker, attempting to convince Worf to save Patahk's life
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Nov 1, 2019 03:02
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Couldn't they have just given that fool Vulcan blood?
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Nov 1, 2019 03:52
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Snow Cone Capone posted:I understand it's a basic gatcha game with Star Trek skin but lol at the fact that ST: Timelines has five different types of currency Please tell me one is at least quatloos... 
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Nov 1, 2019 04:07
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Eiba posted:What the heck? Off the top of my head, nearly every single thing about the spore drive is unethical as gently caress. Klingon planetkiller WMD lol (should have been Praxis not Quonos)
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Nov 1, 2019 04:13
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curiousTerminal posted:It's really, really not hard to grasp a society that both does not rely on money for survival but also has it for luxury goods and services. I can't wrap my head around it. Money is just a placeholder mechanism to facilitate an exchange instead of straight bartering. If you have some object I want or need and cannot obtain elsewhere and you are interested in getting it into my hands but have no desire to gift it, then what?
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Nov 1, 2019 04:13
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Sash! posted:I can't wrap my head around it. It sounds like you are describing a luxury good, the paying for which is covered in the post you quoted.
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Nov 1, 2019 04:24
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The Bloop posted:Off the top of my head, nearly every single thing about the spore drive is unethical as gently caress. But honestly, I'll mostly give you that because even post Lorca they're kind of wishy-washy about how harmful the spore drive is and yet they keep using it. It's a dramatic device where they shouldn't use it, but they have to because things are sooo serious... and that basically is "ends justify the means" kind of bullshit moral thinking, even if it's incredibly surface level and poorly thought out. quote:Klingon planetkiller WMD lol (should have been Praxis not Quonos) Admittedly they then took advantage of it to save the day, but I'm not arguing that Discovery has a coherent moral message, just very specifically that it doesn't go full tilt "ends justify the means." Maybe it's just me, but the "ends justify the means" message of the season one finale comes off as poor writing and an accidental implication, rather than a deliberate message, considering they do it all while verbally condemning the concept.
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Nov 1, 2019 04:44
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But practically nothing has come off as a deliberate message so far except when our hero is talking directly to the camera, that's the issue. Even the good things you see seem accidental or haphazard at best
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Nov 1, 2019 04:47
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DMM said it well:Drink-Mix Man posted:In fairness, I don't think we were supposed to like that stuff in Discovery either, but it is presented as the norm too often rather than the exception. There was too much emphasis on the grim stuff and they failed to adequetely juxtapose it against it against a humanistic setting in any meaningful way.
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Nov 1, 2019 05:11
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curiousTerminal posted:Capitalism is a fairly recent invention, and societies had money long before it reared its ugly head. It's really, really not hard to grasp a society that both does not rely on money for survival but also has it for luxury goods and services. What's a luxury good, in a world without consumerism and luxury brands?
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Nov 1, 2019 05:19
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There are two books written and sold about the economics of Star Trek, and a youtube video by a dork who read them. https://www.amazon.com/Trekonomics-Economics-Star-Manu-Saadia/dp/1941758754 https://www.amazon.com/Economics-Star-Trek-Proto-Post-Scarcity-Anniversary-ebook/dp/B07NLKV6WG/ref=dp_kinw_strp_1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_474dBpn6c Largely, of all the things in Star Trek that are hyped up but never elaborated on, the exact nature of the internals of Federation society, especially human society, is the absolute least elaborated on. The writers had dreams and hopes, but they stopped at just hopes, and never went on to philosophies, manifestos, or solutions. Hopefully Federation life is nice, but I don't think we ever hear much about missing it from the people who've left the Earth light years behind them. It's a lot like Earth is that distant land across the sea that the elves go off to in Lord of the Rings. I do get the impression that the whole paradise angle is a lot stronger in Next Generation than it was in the original series. TNG is a ship full of families who seemingly don't even really need to have a useful purpose or job on the ship, while TOS Enterprise is always abuzz with crewmembers doing lots of things and probably extras needing less pay. The movies even get into things like assembling the whole crew into lines in military-style. That one research base with Kirk's ex even seems extremely distrustful of Starfleet, which brings up some questions. How much political power does Starfleet have? Which way does it normally lean? Admiral Hague tried to run a coup on the Federation that one time, how well would that have gone over? Personally, while the exact nature of day to day life is an incredibly important statement as to the future and hope, I'm honestly way more interested in the weird particulars of normal life in alien societies that writers would feel more free to do something weird and specific with anyways. Do Romulans mass-produce baggy uniforms so they don't have to tailor them to individuals? Is there such a thing as Klingon academia out there somewhere where research leads are constantly deposed by their subordinates through trial by combat? Where does that one merchant race in the gamma quadrant fit in with with the dictatorship of the Dominion and the bio-engineered slave races? These are the questions worth answering people. Star Trek is much more comfortable with confronting human issues via alien proxies anyways.
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Nov 1, 2019 05:40
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PerniciousKnid posted:What's a luxury good, in a world without consumerism and luxury brands? The same thing it was in the many cultures of Earth's past that were capitalist hellscapes: something that took a lot of time and skill and effort, and potentially expensive materials, for one, or even several, people to make, the price of which, when purchasing, is based on said expenditures. It's really pretty basic logic, it's only as twisted as it can be these days due to capitalist fuckery.
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Nov 1, 2019 06:17
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PerniciousKnid posted:What's a luxury good, in a world without consumerism and luxury brands? Other entertainment media are also relatively dispensable in specific cases, although general "access to information, including entertaining and fictional information" would not be. This doesn't mean they're evil or anything, just that the Federation could probably ignore them other than safety regulations etc. (Which is probably why the Ktarians used that vector.)
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Nov 1, 2019 07:12
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Kibayasu posted:Well of course isn’t. You can’t replicate it. Gold-pressed latinum is actually a crafting item, and one that fitting you can't use the replicator to make.
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Nov 1, 2019 07:59
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Nessus posted:I'm not sure if "luxury good" remains the right term but I'd term it as something you don't even, hypothetically, need to survive. Probably the best and most readily to-hand example would be video games. You can make a decent case that access to a computer (which can play video games, among other things) is a necessity; I think it is harder to claim that a Nintendo Switch is. Holo-programs are basically video games and while it seems like there's no copyright in the Federation so there's not a market exactly, it's still a popular medium of expression, as comes up in TNG and DS9. There's even some distinct genres; kids edutainment with Flotter T Water, action-adventure Bond pastiche, Sherlock Holmes mystery puzzles, war simulations of famous historical human and Klingon battles at the very least, and of course all the porn. And Nog's whole deal in Starfleet in that even in a post-scarcity society there's still supply and demand for luxuries and items with intangible value (he must have taken Jake's lessons to heart and maybe gotten a new understanding of Ferengi ideals) which pays dividends in morale and convenience when you do it right.
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Nov 1, 2019 08:10
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Holo-programs are basically video games and while it seems like there's no copyright in the Federation so there's not a market exactly Remember that the Doctor won his space lawsuit over control of his work, though.
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Nov 1, 2019 08:55
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Discovery using the Klingon planetkilller to blackmail the Empire into suing for peace is the same as DS9 using the Changeling Plague to force the Dominion to surrender. Discuss.
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Nov 1, 2019 09:10
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I just showed my 4-year-old that GIF, and his immediate response was "It's a faaaaaake."  (He followed up with "Don't you understand? It's real!")
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Nov 1, 2019 09:24
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Sash! posted:I can't wrap my head around it. Money is way more abstract than that under our capitalism. It's not like you do X work or produce Y thing of value and you get that much currency to spend. There's not a sensible correlation between how important or necessary your work is to civilization and the people who have the most money mostly seem to make money by already having too much money. Then there's the 50 billion ways people generate money doing god knows what, speculating, trading imaginary bullshits back and forth, steaking wages, underpaying and over exploiting workers, screwing over people, all that sorta poo poo. If we converted our abstract currency back into barter we'd be trading lovecraftian horrors instead of grains and goats.
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Nov 1, 2019 09:35
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Bold of you to assume a goat isn’t a horror.
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Nov 1, 2019 09:37
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Luxuries also include things like living spaces and historical objects like those books Picard always has under glass. Also things that are inherently limited like a meal at Sisko's or a specific bottle of Chateau Picard. Both of those could be replicated but some people want the experience of going to the real place and having the real experience. Others couldn't care less. I imagine if you want to live in an efficiency apartment and never go hungry and have the best health care and read every book and consume every entertainment product you can just do that without working a day in your life. You can visit the beach but you can't live at it full time.
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Nov 1, 2019 12:57
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