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Owlbear Camus posted:There really is a bottled lightning aspect to how much John Williams' score, the great cast, and the incredible McQuarry design, amazing sets and prop design, evocative sound effects work, visual effects, and snappy novel editing all jelled together elevated what could have been another forgotten 70's sci fi flick; George's space opera heartbreaker. The saved in the edit thing is basically true, people kind of overplay the degree to which it was just Lucas's wife, she was one of the three principal editors on ANH and they all should share credit for that. I mean at the time, Lucas himself specifically recognized that the film had problems and he got in Steven Spielberg and others to view the early drafts and tell him their thoughts which led to the process to drastically re-edit the film. It's quite fascinating really, but it's not as if any of this was done over the head of George. I think he does deserve alot of credit for Star Wars (getting a bunch of super taleneted people together and providing the material for them to work together to create something great is no mean task in and of itsel), but the easy route is often to either give it all to him, as we are inclined to do or kind of do the same but opposite where we say he had nothing to do with Star Wars being good and it was all other people (often all one person, like Marcia Lucas or Irivin Kershner). George probably deserves part of the blame for that development because of his continued tinkering with the movies over the years, undermining the work, love and effort that all those people who made the movies with him put into them back in the day.
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Nov 21, 2019 18:11
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I can't tell what's going on in the mind of George, I just read the Han Shot First wiki (not wooki) page, and he comes across as a passive aggressive poo poo. He literally said "I'm sorry you fell in love with a half complete film"
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Nov 21, 2019 18:49
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Kazak posted:I can't tell what's going on in the mind of George, I just read the Han Shot First wiki (not wooki) page, and he comes across as a passive aggressive poo poo. He literally said "I'm sorry you fell in love with a half complete film" One thing he either never understood or lost is economy of storytelling. My all time favorite movie, RoboCop, is IMO a masterclass in this. Every scene has a purpose and drives the story forward or reveals something to the audience, often multiple somethings in layers. Every time I re-watch it, I realize just how sleek and low drag it is, often noticing another way the story just comes together in such a compact and perfect way. Just a tiny example: the scene where RoboCop discovers that he's a murdered cop changes the stakes/conditions of him, advances his goals, gives us names for the main villains, and introduces the data spike interface so it's not a spike ex machina in the end when used as a weapon. I bring it up because Lucas went out of his way to re-insert a second scene to tell us that Han is in trouble with a gangster named Jabba the Hutt. We learned this from the Greedo scene, which had tension and resolution and also informed us something about Han Solo's character (he's a slick guy who can misdirect a hired gun and won't hesitate to exploit having the drop on him) and the world he inhabits (public homicide is cause for the DJ to stop for a minute and a few rubberneckers, but a quick gratuity to the barkeep and everything's back to normal.) The Jabba scene is a walk and talk that doesn't tell the audience anything new, immediately defuses any tension, and doesn't really change the conditions or stakes for Han. It's absolute storytelling cruft; empty calories.
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Nov 21, 2019 19:16
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Owlbear Camus posted:One thing he either never understood or lost is economy of storytelling. My guess is that he never understood it, since what you're describing fits into the theory that Star Wars truly was "saved in the edit," and that George is butthurt that the editors of the movie got Oscars for their work (including his ex) while he didn't, causing him to, over the years, either consciously or subconsciously, destroy the movie for which they received that honor.
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Nov 21, 2019 20:21
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happyhippy posted:This. I assume in 20 years Talk to Transformer will be able to make new star wars movie out of whole cloth
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Nov 21, 2019 20:27
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It's bad. All of it.
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Nov 21, 2019 20:29
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People are desperate to credit anyone but Lucas with saving Star Wars from his "ideas guy" idiocy, but no one gives him credit for stepping back in to save RotJ, which was an over-budget and schedule turd shot like a tv show.
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Nov 21, 2019 20:36
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Ema Nymton posted:My guess is that he never understood it, since what you're describing fits into the theory that Star Wars truly was "saved in the edit," and that George is butthurt that the editors of the movie got Oscars for their work (including his ex) while he didn't, causing him to, over the years, either consciously or subconsciously, destroy the movie for which they received that honor. haha oh god it makes so much sense now. star wars won a huge pile of Oscars in every category, except for George Lucas contribution  https://www.geeksaresexy.net/2019/1...McbiTeAs_z5MMqQ
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Nov 21, 2019 20:39
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LOL I just looked it up and Guinness was nominated for best supporting actor. How pissed would he have been to actually win for a role he famously thought was regretably successful declasse dogshit he was slumming it in?
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Nov 21, 2019 20:48
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Saint Drogo posted:all films are way more collaborative than people think, that just seems to go quadruple for George. Yup, for sure, especially given that the OT's creation was anywhere from a hugely collaborative effort between amazingly talented filmmakers, including George Lucas himself (ANH) to being partially hands-off on the actual filmmaking aspects (RotJ). The prequels are the exact inverse where too much creative freedom given to a legit crazy dude gets us one of the worst cinematic trilogies in history.
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Nov 21, 2019 20:56
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sassassin posted:People are desperate to credit anyone but Lucas with saving Star Wars from his "ideas guy" idiocy, but no one gives him credit for stepping back in to save RotJ, which was an over-budget and schedule turd shot like a tv show. Rotj isn't very good though
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Nov 21, 2019 21:02
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Owlbear Camus posted:One thing he either never understood or lost is economy of storytelling. My all time favorite movie, RoboCop, is IMO a masterclass in this. Every scene has a purpose and drives the story forward or reveals something to the audience, often multiple somethings in layers. Every time I re-watch it, I realize just how sleek and low drag it is, often noticing another way the story just comes together in such a compact and perfect way. Just a tiny example: the scene where RoboCop discovers that he's a murdered cop changes the stakes/conditions of him, advances his goals, gives us names for the main villains, and introduces the data spike interface so it's not a spike ex machina in the end when used as a weapon. Zane fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 21:02
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Owlbear Camus posted:I bring it up because Lucas went out of his way to re-insert a second scene to tell us that Han is in trouble with a gangster named Jabba the Hutt. We learned this from the Greedo scene, which had tension and resolution and also informed us something about Han Solo's character (he's a slick guy who can misdirect a hired gun and won't hesitate to exploit having the drop on him) and the world he inhabits (public homicide is cause for the DJ to stop for a minute and a few rubberneckers, but a quick gratuity to the barkeep and everything's back to normal.) A New Hope Special Edition the most suffers from this absolutely everywhere, even beyond the incredibly bad Jabba scene, like the terribly ugly video game-like CG sequence where Stormtroopers (on hilariously out-of-place large reptile creatures!) are looking for R2-D2 and C-3PO that kills all the gritty tension and mystery. Or terrible nonsense like redoing an extended laughably cartoony intro to Mos Eisley. George Lucas is a loving idiot. Cough Drop The Beat fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 21:05
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the important thing is that R2 be adequately hidden by rocks.
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Nov 21, 2019 21:08
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Owlbear Camus posted:One thing he either never understood or lost is economy of storytelling. My all time favorite movie, RoboCop, is IMO a masterclass in this. Every scene has a purpose and drives the story forward or reveals something to the audience, often multiple somethings in layers. Every time I re-watch it, I realize just how sleek and low drag it is, often noticing another way the story just comes together in such a compact and perfect way. Just a tiny example: the scene where RoboCop discovers that he's a murdered cop changes the stakes/conditions of him, advances his goals, gives us names for the main villains, and introduces the data spike interface so it's not a spike ex machina in the end when used as a weapon. To piggyback on this good post, Han's scene with Greedo is also crucial for the climax to work at maximum effectiveness. You need to believe that Han could actually bail on Luke. The original version does a fuckin excellent job at establishing Han as someone who does not gently caress around when it comes to the preservation of his own life
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Nov 21, 2019 21:15
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They didn’t have the technology to place rocks in front of a camera in 1977
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Nov 21, 2019 21:15
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Cough Drop The Beat posted:A New Hope Special Edition the most suffers from this absolutely everywhere, even beyond the incredibly bad Jabba scene, like the terribly ugly video game-like CG sequence where Stormtroopers (on hilariously out-of-place large reptile creatures!) are looking for R2-D2 and C-3PO that kills all the gritty tension and mystery. Or terrible nonsense like redoing an extended laughably cartoony intro to Mos Eisley. George Lucas is a loving idiot. ANH is the worst, by ROTJ has gradually built up a ton of detrimental changes too: the extended jabba band sequence is an overblown CGI mess, changing the ewok victory song was unnecessary and implied the Empire suddenly collapsed across the galaxy, replacing Anakin's ghost with Hayden Christensen doesn't make narrative or thematic sense and was disrespectful to the original actor, Vader's NOOOOO when he grabs the Emperor is just laughable... What's the worst change he's made to Empire? There's a dozen different versions of the Emperor scene, but I guess people are broadly OK with that. At one point he made Luke scream when he fell down the ventilation shaft, but I think that's since been undone. Changing Boba Fett's voice maybe? The Walrus posted:This is the first use of 'maclunkey' as a verb that I've seen. Did you coin it? Because it's brilliant. From now on, going back and loving with films will be called Maclunkeying them. Obviously.  I made it up for that post, no idea if anyone said it before.
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Nov 21, 2019 22:18
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Voting Floater posted:What's the worst change he's made to Empire? There's a dozen different versions of the Emperor scene, but I guess people are broadly OK with that. At one point he made Luke scream when he fell down the ventilation shaft, but I think that's since been undone. Changing Boba Fett's voice maybe? Empire is probably the one with the most changes that are just strictly "quality of life" if you don't mind fiddling that doesn't change the narrative structure: touching up some composite shots, "opening up" the Cloud City sets with CGI. Luke's scream was absolutely a boneheaded change and one that I'm glad they took out in '04. Obviously it makes his heroic and defiant self-sacrifice almost comical by giving him buyer's remorse about it. The other biggest change I can think of is changing Vader's "bring me my shuttle" to "alert my star destroyer of my arrival" and showing him get on a lambda shuttle, take off, and land in a star destroyer bay. It's completely gratuitous, we don't need to see his uber driver pull up when he says "call me an uber" to know that's how he got to wherever he is after a scene transition. But thankfully brief and innocuous. The Boba Fett voice change is dumb but whatever, dude only had like 2 lines anyway. Owlbear Camus fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 22:33
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I honestly don't mind the Boba Fett voice change. The world is better with a couple of more New Zealand accents in it.
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Nov 21, 2019 22:43
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Didn’t empire give away the “father” twist by redoing some of the emperors dialogue? I’m sure it happened during one of the edits at least
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Nov 21, 2019 23:05
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poisonpill posted:Didn’t empire give away the “father” twist by redoing some of the emperors dialogue? I’m sure it happened during one of the edits at least Nope, the SE he's still referred to by the emperor as the "Son of Anikan Skywalker," which for anyone who has been living in a bomb shelter since 1980 or uncontacted sentinalese tribesman would preserve the surprise in the last act.
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Nov 21, 2019 23:11
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lol Kylo falls into a hole
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Nov 21, 2019 23:19
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Toxic Mental posted:lol Kylo falls into a hole it's the sith way
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Nov 21, 2019 23:19
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Randarkman posted:I honestly don't mind the Boba Fett voice change. The world is better with a couple of more New Zealand accents in it. G'day my lord!
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Nov 21, 2019 23:27
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Voting Floater posted:ANH is the worst, by ROTJ has gradually built up a ton of detrimental changes too: the extended jabba band sequence is an overblown CGI mess, changing the ewok victory song was unnecessary and implied the Empire suddenly collapsed across the galaxy, replacing Anakin's ghost with Hayden Christensen doesn't make narrative or thematic sense and was disrespectful to the original actor, Vader's NOOOOO when he grabs the Emperor is just laughable... Changing Boba Fett's voice was so dumb because the replacement voice actor sounds like a huge dork. But nowhere near bad as the RotJ changes, true, which I guess mostly I tried to block out of my mind forever because the Anakin ghost scene makes me cringe just thinking about it while I type this. Cough Drop The Beat fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 23:34
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Most of the ROTJ changes aren’t that bad but Jedi Rocks is amazingly poo poo. It’s far worse than anything in the prequels. Fett’s voice being changed is lame and I feel like Lucas had to be just trolling the million fanboys who made Fett a thing in every subsequent piece of Star Wars media, because his reputation is built about 50% on his design and 49% on Wingreen’s delivery of “what if he doesn’t survive, he’s worth a lot to me”
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Nov 21, 2019 23:54
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Cough Drop The Beat posted:Anakin ghost scene makes me cringe just thinking about it while I type this. Get ready for the Rylo, Han, Luke, Leia, ghost scene. All thumb upping Rey.
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Nov 22, 2019 00:03
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sassassin posted:People are desperate to credit anyone but Lucas with saving Star Wars from his "ideas guy" idiocy, but no one gives him credit for stepping back in to save RotJ, which was an over-budget and schedule turd shot like a tv show. I hadn't heard this, and I have to question whether his involvement also made that movie worse. The theatrical release was pretty mediocre, and the worst bits are apparent precursors to all of the bad aspects of the prequel trilogy. And a movie being over-budget and late is not indicative of being bad, so maybe Lucas helped steward the movie toward a specific release date but why should any of us give a poo poo about that if he made the movie worse in the process? Is "save" the right word to use if your doctor prevents you from losing a finger but in the process accidentally cuts off your leg?
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Nov 22, 2019 00:06
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skasion posted:Fett’s voice being changed is lame and I feel like Lucas had to be just trolling the million fanboys who made Fett a thing in every subsequent piece of Star Wars media, because his reputation is built about 50% on his design and 49% on Wingreen’s delivery of “what if he doesn’t survive, he’s worth a lot to me” Tbh his armor and voice are most of the reason why I loved Boba Fett as a kid and still kind of really like him. I'll be totally upfront about it, so I must be the problem.  But I'm also not at all into the masturbatory EU nonsense where he's the coolest, strongest bounty hunter with this elaborate background story because it's the dumbest thing. Cough Drop The Beat fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Nov 22, 2019 |
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Nov 22, 2019 00:15
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i remember in my formative years some fanling telling me all about how fett's armor was so good it could withstand a death star blast and even then, pre internet and a huge star wars fan myself, i viscerally understood this was dumb enough to be beneath arguing about
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Nov 22, 2019 00:34
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skasion posted:Most of the ROTJ changes aren’t that bad but Jedi Rocks is amazingly poo poo. It’s far worse than anything in the prequels.
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Nov 22, 2019 00:38
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im honestly not sure how many of these edits you guys are making up whats jedi rocks precious
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Nov 22, 2019 00:41
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The Protagonist posted:whats jedi rocks precious In the theatrical release of RotJ the puppet band in Jabba's palace performs Lapti Nek, a funky synthy bluesy thing. It's a bit of unobtrusive mes en scene where an alien band performs a song to entertain a mob boss and his retinue. It's fine, it's fun. In the Special Edition they perform Jedi Rock and it's CGI muppets with close ups and its honestly hard to explain all the ways it's more obnoxious and doofy without watching a side-by-side.
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Nov 22, 2019 00:46
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Saw Mandalorian last night, and it was pretty alright! Definitely the best take on Star Wars to come out of Disney so far. It's not blowing my mind and I loving hate the whole baby yoda who can use the force sub plot, but still. Solid 3-out-of-5.
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Nov 22, 2019 00:47
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the voice/accent thing I brought up earlier, plus the Fett replacement talk, reminded me that Harry loving Shearer voiced (but did not play) a dude: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Khurgee I apologize if I either already posted this or am reposting something I read in the thread recently. it blew my mind really hard
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Nov 22, 2019 01:08
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Owlbear Camus posted:In the theatrical release of RotJ the puppet band in Jabba's palace performs Lapti Nek, a funky synthy bluesy thing. It's a bit of unobtrusive mes en scene where an alien band performs a song to entertain a mob boss and his retinue. It's fine, it's fun. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2obEPFGrMs First minute of this. Its really bad blues harmonica rock. The original sounds ALIEN, making it more fit the scene.
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Nov 22, 2019 01:29
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Holy moly this is bad.
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Nov 22, 2019 01:48
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I've only seen a foreign language dub of original trilogy and like 20 years but I don't remember it being that fucken bad.
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Nov 22, 2019 01:49
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The Protagonist posted:i remember in my formative years some fanling telling me all about how fett's armor was so good it could withstand a death star blast and even then, pre internet and a huge star wars fan myself, i viscerally understood this was dumb enough to be beneath arguing about lol
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Nov 22, 2019 02:33
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happyhippy posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2obEPFGrMs they call this 'jizz' music
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Nov 22, 2019 03:03
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