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Sharing Disney+ is Bad and Wrong and also not canon
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Dec 11, 2019 20:33
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Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:I heard the final edit wasn't even finished like a week ago they just wanted to take their time to give us the best star war they could. 
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Dec 11, 2019 20:38
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Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:I heard the final edit wasn't even finished like a week ago Of TLJ?
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Dec 11, 2019 20:44
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The Walrus posted:luke's story in TLJ is the best part of any of the new movies A wizard decides to murder his nephew essentially on a whim, fails, sulks on an island for a decade+, and then uses too much mana casting an illusion spell in order to mock the nephew he failed to murder and dies as a result? really compelling stuff
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Dec 11, 2019 20:45
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Xaintrailles posted:Of TLJ? of Episode 2 and 3 I found out today they were shot at 1080p with digital cameras lol https://www.avsforum.com/forum/44-movies-concerts-music-discussion/1178191-star-wars-ep-ll-lll-shot-only-1080p.html
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Dec 11, 2019 20:47
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Oh this is the lightsaber of the father before he fell to the dark side, and was also the first lightsaber I had on my path to the jedi given to me by my mentor and friend Obi Wan? Welp better just toss it like it's a piece of trash into the ocean.
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Dec 11, 2019 20:49
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LGD posted:A wizard decides to murder his nephew essentially on a whim, fails, sulks on an island for a decade+, and then uses too much mana casting an illusion spell in order to mock the nephew he failed to murder and dies as a result? "a wizard decides not to murder his adopted nephew, fails at everything, sulks in a desert for a decade+ and then uses too much mana casting a protection spell (actually it was intentional just like Luke) in order to (teach his failed pupil one last lesson - luke does this too) and dies as a result" I mean yes it's a retread of the OT just like everything else in these movies but it's done interestingly and different enough that it's own unique thing, as shown by how many people loving hate it. Just Chamber posted:Oh this is the lightsaber of the father before he fell to the dark side, and was also the first lightsaber I had on my path to the jedi given to me by my mentor and friend Obi Wan? this seriously broke peoples brains, wow. it's the first scene of the movie pretty much and it's there as a clear signal to the audience in terms of what to expect in terms of resolution to TFA cliffhangers and it had the opposite effect, it just immediately turned people on the entire movie. like ya luke threw all that stuff in the water. he was throwing his past away that is literally the point of the entire scene and movie, people just don't like it. The Walrus fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Dec 11, 2019 |
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Dec 11, 2019 20:52
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"broke people's brains" is an interesting way of saying "made no sense and sucked" but you do you.
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Dec 11, 2019 20:57
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Vernii posted:I found Snoke's throne set to be rather visually boring. A number of interviews with the set designers describe it as going for an opulent feel but it comes across like a somewhat minimalist green screen set (red screen in this case I guess). Yeah, it is a pretty boring set. I don't see that as a bad thing though; the Obi-Wan vs Vader fight takes place in a pretty boring set too, it's basically the hallway of an office building. The difference is that the Vader fight is dripping with tension whereas the throne room fight has no tension at all, since it's a bunch of mook guards fighting two jedi; they may as well have been battle droids from the prequels. Just Chamber posted:Oh this is the lightsaber of the father before he fell to the dark side, and was also the first lightsaber I had on my path to the jedi given to me by my mentor and friend Obi Wan? From Luke's perpsective: Obi-Wan's way is what led to Darth Vader, and him trying to act like Obi-Wan and Yoda is what led to Kylo Ren. He explains that he literally wants there to be no more jedi, because the jedi suck and have repeatedly ruined the galaxy. So yeah, throw that poo poo in the ocean, it is actually worse than trash
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Dec 11, 2019 21:00
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Owlbear Camus posted:Yeah that's just basic native advertising sense come on. This was a long time ago before they made Disney+
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Dec 11, 2019 21:00
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I maintain that it would have been fine to make luke an insane monster, and fine for him to get a darth vader style death redemption. The problem is the movie also wanted to have the cake too and make luke the big darn inspirational hero who rekindles the rebellion etc etc. This completely turns off and confuses people in a similar way that having everyone in the rebellion honoring vader at the end of rotj would have
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Dec 11, 2019 21:03
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QuarkJets posted:
see also him dismissing it as a 'laser sword'. this is not the symbolic emblem, the cultural touchstone that the audience sees it as. it's a tool of death and a manifestation of a cycle of violence. this is all in the movie, but somehow Luke's actions dont make sense.
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Dec 11, 2019 21:05
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Because its subversive without substance. Mark Hamill isn't dumb, and when he laments how they did Luke dirty it's worth considering his point of view
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Dec 11, 2019 21:05
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The Walrus posted:
What? ?
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Dec 11, 2019 21:06
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yeah, what? the movie makes it abundantly clear why Luke would not want his laser sword. it's in the text. edit: in addition to the reasons already stated, it is a symbol of his own failure. throwing it is an impetuous act but Luke is demonstrably impetuous in every movie he is in.
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Dec 11, 2019 21:07
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i'm guessing a lot of the audience wants to see the Jedi being cool good guys and the Sith being cool bad guys and when the movie says 'actually they're both bad you dumbass' i guess that's an interesting way to go but you really need to pull it off well otherwise the audience isn't going to buy into it or follow along and they'll be disappointed and end up arguing online about it
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Dec 11, 2019 21:08
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Kazak posted:What? There are people in this thread saying that Luke throwing away the lightsaber doesn't make sense, but he spends the next 2/3rds of the movie repeatedly explaining why he did that
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Dec 11, 2019 21:10
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The only good part of the movie was when Yoda did the booty dance.
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Dec 11, 2019 21:11
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In fact I thought that all of the motivation and explanation for Luke rejecting the jedi was too much, like "wow they must think that the audience is really dumb" And then lo and behold the audience is actually way dumber than they anticipated lol
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Dec 11, 2019 21:12
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No Mods No Masters posted:I maintain that it would have been fine to make luke an insane monster, and fine for him to get a darth vader style death redemption. The problem is the movie also wanted to have the cake too and make luke the big darn inspirational hero who rekindles the rebellion etc etc. This completely turns off and confuses people in a similar way that having everyone in the rebellion honoring vader at the end of rotj would have I don't think they made him an "insane monster." They made him a guy who made a snap mistake and let it devour him and go into hermitage. "I screwed up and went into exile and will now, possibly with reluctance train the new person" is pretty much the go-to for star war mentors. Yoda after his hubris in confronting the Emperor let him get outfought, Kenobi after watching Anikan fall... I will grant that they could have sold the Rashomon style thing a little better. Personally, I would have workshopped the incitement to ignite for Luke to be something more compelling than "wow this kid has spooky dreams" but still ambiguous enough that we can read it as a mistake or overreaction. Maybe Kylo goes to hard and injures another student sparring, IDK. The Finn stuff is pretty indefensible, the Resistance White Bronco Chase was not great, and the world building needed a few more throw away lines to fill stuff in... but I will go to bat for most of what went on in Ach-To.
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Dec 11, 2019 21:12
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Randarkman posted:The only good part of the movie was when Yoda did the booty dance. Size matters not. Look at my rear end. Judge my rear end by its size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is.
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Dec 11, 2019 21:13
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No Mods No Masters posted:This completely turns off and confuses people in a similar way that having everyone in the rebellion honoring vader at the end of rotj would have Isn't that literally what happens at the end of rotj though? They bring Vader's body down and cremate it like he's an old friend instead of just letting it blow up on the death star?
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Dec 11, 2019 21:15
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QuarkJets posted:Isn't that literally what happens at the end of rotj though? They bring Vader's body down and cremate it like he's an old friend instead of just letting it blow up on the death star? No, Luke burns his armor alone. There’s no indication that anyone else knew he was doing it.
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Dec 11, 2019 21:17
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Throw your old lightsabers into the sea. It's legal and safe.
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Dec 11, 2019 21:17
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Kazak posted:Because its subversive without substance. This probably strikes at the heart of what irks me so much about TLJ's writing. All the subervsions are just nothing. How does Luke train Rey? He doesnt. How does Snoke complete Kylo's training? He doesnt. Who is Snoke anyway? Nobody and he's dead now. How do Finn and Rose stop the First Order's tracker? They dont. What are the consequences of Holdo refusing to tell people her plan and Poe staging a mutiny? There are no consequences. What will come of Kylo and Rey's budding connection? Nothing, they're back to square one by the end of the movie. The whole movie feels like a waste of time where nothing happens until the last five minutes. The only meaningful things that happened in TLJ were Snoke and Luke dying anticlimactic deaths. Nobody really grew as a character: Rey is exactly where she was at the end of TFA, Finn lazily repeated his arc from TFA, and Poe was made to act woefully out of character so he could learn a lesson I'm confident Abrams will excise from ROS. The movie might as well not exist outside of killing Luke. QuarkJets posted:There are people in this thread saying that Luke throwing away the lightsaber doesn't make sense, but he spends the next 2/3rds of the movie repeatedly explaining why he did that He could have dropped it at his feet for similar if not stronger dramatic effect without him yeeting it over his shoulder for a cheap laugh. Really the tone in a tone of the Luke scenes is completely hosed, it's trying to comedic and sad and poignant all at once and its... messy.
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Dec 11, 2019 21:17
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Luke earns insane monster status in the actions glided over to contrive him being in secret mystery exile, eg admitting guilt but refusing to face any kind of punishment within the legal framework he supposedly believes in and fought to establish, refusing to give han and leia any information about what he did to their son, deliberately leaving behind map fragments to his location purely as a gaslighting exercise as previously discussed, etcQuarkJets posted:Isn't that literally what happens at the end of rotj though? They bring Vader's body down and cremate it like he's an old friend instead of just letting it blow up on the death star? I would say that it's pretty much only luke and maybe leia who give a poo poo, as appropriate. Even then it feels like an insane stretch to say anyone in the rebellion is calling vader a hero of the rebellion
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Dec 11, 2019 21:18
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QuarkJets posted:
I get that was what they're going for, but it just could have been handled way better as opposed to what Rian Johnson went for which was essentially a laugh because it was so "wacky". That's the issue I, as well as Mark Hamill himself had with Luke in those scenes. He comes across as petulant, he comes across as wacky, the script doesn't do a good enough job of conveying that this is a damaged man who has experienced some great trauma etc etc especially in those early scenes with Rey. Later on in the movie we get that but that initial introduction of Luke is so loving bad it damages that story for me. Essentially I want the same story Rian Johnson is trying to convey, but done well. When he threw that Lightsaber away, it had the exact same tone as the Poe's prank call to Hux, for some reason Rian Johnson felt like for both of those arcs it's important to open with a silly gag. Sydin posted:He could have dropped it at his feet for similar if not stronger dramatic effect without him yeeting it over his shoulder for a cheap laugh. Really the tone in a tone of the Luke scenes is completely hosed, it's trying to comedic and sad and poignant all at once and its... messy. Exactly.
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Dec 11, 2019 21:18
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What's wrong with it being funny? Again, the whole point of the scene is that the audience is supposed to realize that the movie is going to take some things they hold reverential and turn them on their heads. A lightsaber is just a meaningless object, a laser sword for a dead relgion. Some people immediately got this, and for some people it (and the Poe/Hux scene which also really is not as bad as people insist) immediately poisoned them on the entire film.Just Chamber posted:
It's literally exactly what happens with Yoda, but people don't care because Yoda had no preexisting emotional baggage for the audience. Mark Hamill doesn't like TLJ because it's not the movie he wanted. Frank Oz likes TLJ because it's not the movie people wanted. I agree with Frank. The Walrus fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Dec 11, 2019 |
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Dec 11, 2019 21:22
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The Walrus posted:"a wizard decides not to murder his adopted nephew, fails at everything, sulks in a desert for a decade+ and then uses too much mana casting a protection spell (actually it was intentional just like Luke) in order to (teach his failed pupil one last lesson - luke does this too) and dies as a result" nah as a protip: being widely hated is not actually evidence that something is "done interestingly" or "unique," much less that it was good and luke tossing the lightsaber didn't turn people off - that was indeed a clear signal that things wouldn't be as we expect, which at that point in the film is intriguing - why doesn't he have any emotional attachment to this thing that we would expect to be extremely important to him? the part people hated was that the answer was "no reason, the person making this movie just doesn't understand/care about Luke as a character and decided to write him as someone completely different" in the OT Luke was a proactive, optimistic "there's good in everyone," hero who had just redeemed the galaxy's worst villain in TLJ he's a reclusive, cynical, coward who decides to murder his (actual) nephew in his sleep b/c of a bad dream (and rather than appearing to be interested in teaching his nephew a lesson, appears to commit wizard-suicide in order to be an abusive rear end in a top hat one final time) - i.e. he's a loving monster that's a complete inversion of his character, and it's not one TLJ cares to show us any part of (despite being such a radical change that it demands attention, especially in contrast to the incredibly tedious bullshit the rest of the movie is concerned with) it's only "interesting" and "unique" insofar as almost no one else on earth would have hosed up his characterization that badly, and in service to such dubious narrative ends there's not even anything wrong with having Luke end up a cynical failure decades later, but that should be a natural outgrowth of his character/history or something explained through experiences we're shown (or can use shorthand to infer) - instead it's the "result" of actions he chooses to take that are arbitrary, inexplicable, and so contrary to what we know about the character that they alienate you from the story LGD fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Dec 11, 2019 |
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Dec 11, 2019 21:28
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Owlbear Camus posted:They made him a guy who made a snap mistake and let it devour him and go into hermitage. Did they? Because of the bad reading of yin and yang at the heart of the Jedi/Sith. Rey should literally just kill herself, and so should the Rebellion. Luke is 100% correct to go into hiding, and to not train Rey. If the Resistance would just shut up, The First Order would evaporate. The more powerful Rey gets, and and everything the Resistance does to oppose the First Order, is only going to make things a lot worse in the end. According to the story of ROTJ, when Rey beats Palpatine in RoS, they're going to get that guy from the EU that had lightsabers on his kneepads and he's going to be able to blow up planets with his mind. Luke was crying at the end of ROTJ because he knows that his support of the Resistance makes him complicit in the genocide of millions in the near future. The Walrus posted:the whole point of the scene is that the audience is supposed to realize that the movie is going to take some things they hold reverential and turn them on their heads. IT SUBVERTED EXPECTATIONS! QuarkJets posted:The Rise of Skywalker - the audience is actually way dumber than they anticipated lol
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Dec 11, 2019 21:28
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The Walrus posted:It's literally exactly what happens with Yoda, but people don't care because Yoda had no preexisting emotional baggage for the audience. I swear we had this exact same discussion itt not many pages ago. But anyway Yoda acts the way he does because it's a put on, he's hiding from those who wish to kill the Jedi, he's also tricking Luke by acting like a crazy old man as a lesson that you shouldnt judge a book by it's cover. Luke doesn't expect a Jedi Master to be a little green crazy dude. Once the teaching starts Yoda is incredibly serious, sure he's a little kooky but no where near the wackiness he was putting on at the start. He's shown to be a little silly when he's teaching the kids in the prequels. Luke on the other hand is just an rear end in a top hat and loving nuts. Also there's a big difference between humorous scenes in Star Wars (see Han Solo stalling for time on the Death Star) and moments where you could actually just add a slide whistle in the background or a laugh track and it would fit. edit: I mean if you ask "what's wrong with it being funny?" well then i'll point to Jar Jar getting his tongue electrocuted in TPM, that's the quality of humor we're talking about in TLJ. It sucks. double edit: with Yoda it's also subverting the audiences expectations, we'd never seen a Jedi Master or this character before, so there's no way that this guy could be the one Luke's looking for right? It's a great piece of story telling and straight out of fantasy where the wizard disguises as someone else to fool those seeking him out. There's no reason for Luke to act like he does in the opening scenes of TLJ. Angry and bitter yes, but wacky like Yoda? Nah, he's not trying to trick or test Rey at that point. And he's clearly not insane because that vanishes and he becomes the wise Jedi Master. Just Chamber fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Dec 11, 2019 |
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Dec 11, 2019 21:31
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LGD posted:A wizard decides to murder his nephew essentially on a whim, fails, sulks on an island for a decade+, and then uses too much mana casting an illusion spell in order to mock the nephew he failed to murder and dies as a result? See now I'm actually liking it, stop that!
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Dec 11, 2019 21:38
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LGD posted:nah there's a lot here but real quick - no something being widely hated is not a sign it was interesting or unique, but when it is literally the exact same story that people have already seen and loved and this time they hate it that signals to me that it challenged them in some way despite being basically the same - people in this thread are arguing that no, it's throwing it into the water which is what they hated. a couple people have said 'it would have been better if he just threw it at his feet' lol. If you disagree, cool. - Yes, Luke has changed. personally I think that the events that are described and the time that has elapsed since ROTJ are more than enough to account for a change in personality. There are enough elements of himself that are so clearly the same (a lot of the same characterization elements that people complain about) that I can still see the Luke of the original trilogy, just changed. It's not all spelled out but there's enough there that it makes sense to me. I take Luke at his word that he saw murder in Ren's heart and saw that he was beyond redemption. If we believe that Luke really is the same guy from the OT, why wouldn't that be true? Obviously he wouldn't just murder his nephew. But people seem to want to see Luke in at once the best light saying he should have been more like he was in the OT while at the same time ascribing the worst possible interpretation of the flashback scene to him. - This isn't a story about Luke. It's a story about Luke passing on the torch. A focus on 'what's luke been up to' beyond what we get is just not what this movie is or what it's trying to be.
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Dec 11, 2019 21:40
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All you really had to do with Luke if you wanted the same basic premise of him being in exile was to have him try the same pacifism route that he did with Vader on Kylo. The culmination of his character growth in the OT was taking the moral high ground and sticking to his conviction of saving his father in spite of both the good guys and the bad guys saying he needed to pick someone to kill. His punk rear end nephew comes along and is showing signs of being a bad guy and the believable response for his character is to say "I won out with kindness when faced with the most evil man in the galaxy, I'm older and even wiser now so I can do it again." It doesn't work, and now you've got Luke questioning himself and what's right. Paint him as not a cynical rear end in a top hat but contemplative, and you're arriving at a similar destination without any weird nonsensical invalidation of that aforementioned development. It also winds up making more sense in terms of leaving a map; If a legit potential Jedi really needs him they can show that gumption by finding him, but otherwise he wants time to think about poo poo. Really though thinking too much about fixing specific facets of TLJ is the exact same as the prequels in that it's a stupid rabbit hole to go down since more fundamental big picture stuff is wrong.
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Dec 11, 2019 21:42
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It's a pretty minor thing to take notice of I think, but I actually thought it was really weird how Luke had his green lightsaber in the bad dream flashback, or that he had a lightsaber at all really. I always took the scene where Luke refuses to kill Vader and throws away his lightsaber to be more than just a symbolic gesture of defiance to Palpatine, honestly to me this is the moment Luke has become a Jedi in the truest sense, the lightsaber is a symbol of anger and agression and he rejects it by throwing it away. At that point, as I see it (and I believe was the intention of the movie) he would not pick it back up off-screen or construct a new one. It even kind of made sense with the implications of Kylo's backstory in that he had that ratty, strange lightsaber, because the Luke of the OT very likely would not have instructed his new Jedi in using the lightsaber and Kylo would have had to make his from scratch with no first-hand knowledge or experience of them.
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Dec 11, 2019 21:43
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Because you all asked for it here's how to fix TLJ: - Make Luke more damaged and less wacky, hell have him angry, perhaps Rey's influence/ optimism pulls him back from the dark that he's been forging with his bitterness/ guilt all alone on his island. - Have Rey actually team up with Kylo at the end. Actually embrace the whole abandoning the Jedi and Sith code and go towards the grey. The books stay burnt. - Axe Canto Bight, Finn and Poe team up along with Rose (who take's over Bencio Del Toro's role of the skilled hacker) to infiltrate Snoke's ship or something that keeps them with the main fleet instead of using a small ship to escape and thus exposing a flaw in the plot. - Luke confronts Kylo in the flesh because Holo Luke is silly. - Phasma actually does something in the movie.
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Dec 11, 2019 21:44
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And what's up with that evil hole on Luke's island anyways?
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Dec 11, 2019 21:44
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Randarkman posted:It even kind of made sense with the implications of Kylo's backstory in that he had that ratty, strange lightsaber, because the Luke of the OT very likely would not have instructed his new Jedi in using the lightsaber and Kylo would have had to make his from scratch with no first-hand knowledge or experience of them. Kylo Ren built a crossguard into his lightsaber that can't function as a crossguard. What a noob!!!!
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Dec 11, 2019 21:45
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The Walrus posted:What's wrong with it being funny? Again, the whole point of the scene is that the audience is supposed to realize that the movie is going to take some things they hold reverential and turn them on their heads. A lightsaber is just a meaningless object, a laser sword for a dead relgion. Some people immediately got this, and for some people it (and the Poe/Hux scene which also really is not as bad as people insist) immediately poisoned them on the entire film. and the issue isn't that the film isn't reverential of lightsabers, it's that a character behaves in a manner that is completely inconsistent with what we know about him and the film feels no need to explain that beyond the character being completely different quote:It's literally exactly what happens with Yoda, but people don't care because Yoda had no preexisting emotional baggage for the audience. quote:Mark Hamill doesn't like TLJ because it's not the movie he wanted. Frank Oz likes TLJ because it's not the movie people wanted. I agree with Frank.
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Dec 11, 2019 21:45
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Just Chamber posted:I swear we had this exact same discussion itt not many pages ago. But anyway Yoda acts the way he does because it's a put on, he's hiding from those who wish to kill the Jedi, he's also tricking Luke by acting like a crazy old man as a lesson that you shouldnt judge a book by it's cover. Luke doesn't expect a Jedi Master to be a little green crazy dude. Once the teaching starts Yoda is incredibly serious, sure he's a little kooky but no where near the wackiness he was putting on at the start. He's shown to be a little silly when he's teaching the kids in the prequels. He really doesn't act all that weird compared to Yoda. He is standoffish but his move is basically to just ignore Rey and go about his usual day. I mean him throwing the lightsaber away does a lot of stuff symbolically that's already been discussed. And yeah, having the last movie end on a literal cliffhanger where the lightsaber is being imbued with this emblematic importance, and starting this one with him throwing it away, basically continuing the epic musical sting from the conclusion of TFA and cutting it off abruptly, is funny. Everybody in my theatre laughed. It was a good moment. It's even funnier it made people so angry. It's not at all on the level of Jar Jar physical slapstick. It has a textual and subtextual meaning and a purpose in the movie. Some people just don't like it. It's fine to not like the movie! But it's just not objectively bad, and it makes an awful more sense than people like to pretend.
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Dec 11, 2019 21:46
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