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Dune?
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Dec 11, 2019 22:30
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gently caress yeah
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Dec 11, 2019 22:41
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The Walrus posted:I'm gonna edit out the stuff that I think we just subjectively disagree on and speak to this real quickly, but Luke never tries to murder his nephew. he considers it and then pays the rest of this life for it. And then we move back to subjective disagreement in that I don't think any of this is out of character for him. He's old and he's tired and he's not the young idealistic person that he used to be, who is? otoh you've admitted you'll happily imagine anything to fill in for what the film omits, so I guess it really is all "subjective" disagreement since nothing could possibly ever be out of character for you quote:Yeah, Luke fails. This movie is about him failing. Over and over again. Continually with really no moment of redemption at the end. This is not a flaw in the film. It's a flaw in Luke's character, which makes him interesting. TLJ's problem is that we never get the sense that it's actually Luke who fails, because we're not shown the same character as the OT, and the movie does not tell us how he got from A to B instead of having flaws and failures that plausibly originate from his character or limitations, we're simply told he had a flaw that led to failure, and that flaw was "oh btw this dude was big into child abuse, to the point of being a moment away from murdering his nephew, with whose care he had been entrusted, due to a bad dream" the film doesn't actually establish that change in his character from redemptive hero- it comes from nothing, and it leads to nothing, and it tells us of nothing about the character beyond a bare assertion that he was a monster all along in a way that goes against pretty much everything we know about him that is profoundly uninteresting, because his failure doesn't feel earned and the dissonance his treatment creates gives a strong sense that the actions of characters are completely arbitrary and driven entirely by what a writer decided the plot needed - even "how did he possibly end up this way?" loses any interest or meaning when you decide there almost certainly isn't actually a good answer (and this induced disinterest then bleeds over to other characters) it is very in keeping with the rest of TLJ though, which is entirely reliant on the goodwill previous films established towards characters to get us to care about anything happening onscreen, but does nothing worthwhile with any of them LGD fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Dec 11, 2019 |
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Dec 11, 2019 22:42
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I've reflected on this for quite some time and it is not Dune. It is mostly Star Wars.
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Dec 11, 2019 22:44
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Idk why people say killing younglings isn't something Luke would do, it's in his blood!
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Dec 11, 2019 22:45
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Can't wait for Daisy Ridley to return as Sith Lord Empress Skykiller in Episode XXXIV
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Dec 11, 2019 22:49
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https://twitter.com/leslieleeiii/status/1204878122258194437?s=19 https://twitter.com/leslieleeiii/status/1204879718639702026?s=19
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Dec 11, 2019 22:50
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You don't see a link between Luke in the OT and in this trilogy, for me his change makes complete sense from what we are shown even if we are left to guess at what he was thinking at some specific times. This is fine for me because the movie is not about him, it's about the lasting effects of his failure. His flaw with Ren isn't being a monster or a child murderer or whatever other hyperbole you want to apply, it's that he didn't see the extent of the darkness in him earlier, because he was too scared, or too much in denial, to look deeply into his mind. Then he had a moment of weakness and it all went to poo poo. There is no point at which Luke realizes how far down the dark side Ren has gone that he can actually talk to him about it - once the massacre at the jedi temple occurs Luke puts that failure on himself and goes into exile. He truly believes he can't do any more good. This all is in the movie and makes a lot of sense in terms of why someone would be all old and bitter and jedi-hating.
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Dec 11, 2019 22:54
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Wait, I thought it was the last jedi *haters* that were racist alt-right etc (present company excluded of course) I wonder if disney is regretting this yet.
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Dec 11, 2019 22:55
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Those droids are something.
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Dec 11, 2019 22:58
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https://twitter.com/RickyRawls/status/1204863153806479361 Agree with this take. Also no one attacked Mark Hamill like they're attacking Boyega over his comments.
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Dec 11, 2019 23:00
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my dog died im sad posted:Star? Wars? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYHzO6lCtWg
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Dec 11, 2019 23:04
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Just Chamber posted:https://twitter.com/RickyRawls/status/1204863153806479361 To be fair Hamill made those comments before TLJ came out and became a huge political flashpoint that bitterly divided the fanbase. But yes the point is still very valid and it's not like the fanbase has taken the same time and energy to go back and relitigate all the things Hamill said.
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Dec 11, 2019 23:07
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Disney Marketer: These numbers aren't great, we need more hype. Methinks like a lil' controversy is just what Star Wars needs right before release  *Goes on twitter* *immediately closes browser* Nope. That's not what Star Wars needed
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Dec 11, 2019 23:07
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I think the "lost script on eBay" was probably a legit guerrilla marketing stunt. Boyega badmouthing it probably not, and dude's not unjustified based on how they did him in TLJ. Also love Isaacs hollering from the rooftops that Finn and Poe are gay as the day is long and the studio not letting them smooch is cowardice.
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Dec 11, 2019 23:10
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First you're a racist if you don't like star wars. Now you're a racist if you do like star wars. I just can't keep up with these star wars.
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Dec 11, 2019 23:12
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Chomp8645 posted:First you're a racist if you don't like star wars. If you can't handle these Star Wars, you're gonna hate the race wars
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Dec 11, 2019 23:13
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It ultimately comes down to this: Star Wars
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Dec 11, 2019 23:13
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Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:If you can't handle these Star Wars, you're gonna hate the race wars The Tarkin Diaries.
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Dec 11, 2019 23:15
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The Walrus posted:You don't see a link between Luke in the OT and in this trilogy, for me his change makes complete sense from what we are shown even if we are left to guess at what he was thinking at some specific times. This is fine for me because the movie is not about him, it's about the lasting effects of his failure. I emphatically do not see the link between OT Luke and this Luke, because the specific areas of thinking we need to guess at essentially amount to "all of it," which makes hinging a core part of the film on that "failure" feel arbitrary and unearned and it's hard to say Luke's flaw wasn't that he was a monster with an inclination to child murder when that was the precipitating incident that alienated Kylo completely (and again: standing over his bed with bared blade a moment from cutting him in half, no hyperbole at all) - saying that wasn't a core failure on his part is to suggest his actual flaw was failure of resolution in his decision to murder a child who was simply Born Bad and note: for a movie you keep insisting isn't about Luke, it sure is weird how little any of this stuff has to do with or payoff for other any of the other characters
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Dec 11, 2019 23:16
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Owlbear Camus posted:The Tarkin Diaries. 
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Dec 11, 2019 23:17
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Just Chamber posted:I think we would have had a MUCH better third movie if there was no Sith, no Jedi. You're right he doesnt change in TLJ but you just know we're going to get a Kylo redemption story in this new film so some evidence of change would have been nice. he isnt really a sith though. he just a dumb facist maurader now. Just Chamber posted:Also John Boyega dislikes The Last Jedi now. i mean again, i dont loving blame him at all. like despite what dumbshit "woke" twitter critics say, finn and roses arcs were the worst part of the loving movie. like yeah i get what rian was trying to do thematically but it just doesn't work well at all story wise. also i love that said critics are now turning on john for speaking the truth. good on him.
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Dec 11, 2019 23:18
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Just Chamber posted:https://twitter.com/RickyRawls/status/1204863153806479361 People loving loved Pattinson for saying Twilight is bad
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Dec 11, 2019 23:20
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What did Boyega even say? I don't want to look for a youtube clip because there is a 10% I'll find a concise video of his direct commentary, and a 90% I'll get some idiot who plays Boyega's commentary for four seconds and then launches into a gamers-rise-up style rant about political nonsense.
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Dec 11, 2019 23:23
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LGD posted:lmao you can read that as being the moment that alienated kylo completely, or you can see it as kylo getting the final push to a complete a path he had long started. those are the two possibilities that the movie presents, either one is a failure on Luke's part. and I don't think Luke being willfully ignorant about something (choosing to ignore his instinct that Ren was turning and choosing not to confirm his suspicions) is at all out of line with his character in the OT. We see him being willfully ignorant constantly. It's probably his biggest flaw. As for your comment on payoff, as I've said it's setting up the third movie which is Rey taking up the mantle of Luke's (which are Obi Wan's and really those of the entire Jedi order as well) failures and finally making them right. The second movie isn't supposed to have a payoff. The Walrus fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Dec 11, 2019 |
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Dec 11, 2019 23:24
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Chomp8645 posted:What did Boyega even say? I don't want to look for a youtube clip because there is a 10% I'll find a concise video of his direct commentary, and a 90% I'll get some idiot who plays Boyega's commentary for four seconds and then launches into a gamers-rise-up style rant about political nonsense. It's actually quite a lot (content wise, not severity), he gave an interview to Hypebeast that, and honestly I have no issue with it, had some types of comments that were rather unusual for an actor in an active series to do. RPatt excepted I guess? Did he do that after the series or during? Either way Boyega's comments are really not that bad at all it's more of "I don't think this is as good as the OT" which, yeah no poo poo https://hypebeast.com/2019/12/john-boyega-star-wars-rise-of-skywalker-interview-cover The Walrus fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Dec 11, 2019 |
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Dec 11, 2019 23:25
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The Walrus posted:The second movie isn't supposed to have a payoff.
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Dec 11, 2019 23:28
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The Walrus posted:you can read that as being the moment that alienated kylo completely, or you can see it as kylo getting the final push to a complete a path he had long started. those are the two possibilities that the movie presents, either one is a failure on Luke's part. how he possibly got to that point, and how that can even be squared with who he was in the OT is not explained and is left as an exercise for the highly motivated viewer quote:As for your comment on payoff, as I've said it's setting up the third movie which is Rey taking up the mantle of Luke's (which are Obi Wan's and really those of the entire Jedi order as well) failures and finally making them right. The second movie isn't supposed to have a payoff. and boy does it ever not! but more importantly it doesn't set up that payoff in any way - Luke is a recluse who doesn't have a loving mantle to step into, Luke doesn't teach Rey anything, and most importantly we have no actual explanation of how Luke got to the point where he was about to murder Kylo so there's no narratively satisfying way of correcting his "failures" beyond "don't get written by some guy who completely inverts your personality and makes you someone who is a moment away from murdering a young child for reasons that are only ever vaguely alluded to" e: (also you're wrong in general, there is nothing preventing middle parts in trilogies from having substantial payoffs in terms of character development [which TLJ doesn't do], or in terms of plot [i.e. a false triumph crumbles as the real enemy is revealed, our heroes are in desperate straights but learn or obtain something that will be critical in the future, etc. - also not something TLJ does]) LGD fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Dec 11, 2019 |
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Dec 11, 2019 23:34
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The Last Jedi sucks rear end, and not in the fun way.
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Dec 11, 2019 23:34
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he saw all the horrible stuff that Ren was capable of and considered for a second ending his life. that just doesnt seem so crazy to me. I'd kill baby Hitler even if I thought I could maybe redeem him and he was my nephew. and yes I know I'm not Luke Skywalker and maybe he would want to redeem Hitler but his thought process is just as likely to be "I barely succeeded turning back my father, I'm old and tired, I have already failed by not doing something sooner, can I possibly do this again" as it is what you are suggesting The Walrus fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Dec 11, 2019 |
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Dec 11, 2019 23:39
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The Luke thing really just speaks to them going too far with the whole "kill the past" thing. To preface, it's not good to have fanboy-like reverence for older, original stuff. But, it's also just kind of cheap and lazy to try and tear down the old characters for the sake of trying to more firmly establish the new ones. This in turn is also pretty closely connected with the absurdity of the basic framework of the sequel trilogy as a whole and how it kind of just throws the events of the OT in the trash by saying there's a new Empire that's bigger and eviler and angrier somehow and also a scrappy rebellion in spite of there supposedly being a new galaxy-wide republic and oops it got blowed up. Then that is related to the general concept of trying to tie stuff to the original trilogy period. The OT pretty succinctly framed itself as being the biggest deal to happen in a thousand generations, so what like 20,000 or 30,000 years? The worst bad guys to show up in tens of thousands of years created an evil empire that took over the galaxy, and our band of heroes brought them down. You can't get more grandiose than that without being absurd, and nobody wants to try and tell a smaller story, or more specifically a lot of times doing so just doesn't feel like Star Wars. A lot of people adhere to the view that the OT story was self contained and just needs to be left alone, and I tend to more or less agree. Trying to bolt more poo poo on before or after will always be awkward and wrong in some way. You wind up invalidating characters and accomplishments, and stuff will never quite make sense.
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Dec 11, 2019 23:47
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The Walrus posted:he saw all the horrible stuff that Ren was capable of and considered for a second ending his life. that just doesnt seem so crazy to me. I'd kill baby Hitler even if I thought I could maybe redeem him and he was my nephew. "for a second" = by his own account went to his room at night and stood above him with a bared blade preparing to murder him and lost the opportunity in a moment of hesitation and this isn't you, this is the hero of the galaxy who already went through hell to redeem an even worse monster nor does he have the certainty of a time-travel scenario, this is prophetic dreams/voices in his head/intuition - guess what the general going-on-for-literal-thousands-of-years cultural consensus is on people who attempt to murder children because of such things? e: quote:and yes I know I'm not Luke Skywalker and maybe he would want to redeem Hitler but his thought process is just as likely to be "I barely succeeded turning back my father, I'm old and tired, I have already failed by not doing something sooner, can I possibly do this again" as it is what you are suggesting you're making a bald assertion that "oh, I guess this child with whose care I've been entrusted is looking like he might not turn into a good person, time for some pre-meditated murder" is a reasonable thought for someone to have, which it very much isn't without a lot of justification we're not given, especially for the character in question LGD fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Dec 12, 2019 |
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Dec 11, 2019 23:48
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it's just, all of what you're describing is specifically addressed in the script pasted below. its blatantly spelled out. and yeah because its star wars and prophesy exists I take what Luke says at face value. I guess basically I feel like Luke's characterization in TLJ is consistent enough within it's own film that I'm willing to make rational guesses as to what might have taken him to that point. You think its too different from the OTs characterization to work. we just disagree. see you around kid (next time we argue about star wars) Luke Skywalker : I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I'd seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction and pain and death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become, and for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow, and I was left with shame and with consequence. And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose Master had failed him. Rey : You failed him by thinking his choice was made. It wasn't
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Dec 12, 2019 00:04
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Dune.
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Dec 12, 2019 00:06
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actually I guess I would like to know why Luke went to Rens room that night in the first place. that would be interesting. what made him finally decide to end his willful ignorance? in the OT the only things that ended Luke's willful ignorance were external factors like Vader telling him no you idiot I'm your father you know I'm your father now join me
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Dec 12, 2019 00:11
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How's this thread so active?! Has someone declared a new star war  Just think of all the poor younglings who will die in coarse sands of some far away planet. J'oh'nny will have got his blaster rifle too...
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Dec 12, 2019 00:17
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Colonel Cancer posted:How's this thread so active?! Has someone declared a new star war Yeah man it's in the title and it's coming out in like a week or something.
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Dec 12, 2019 00:25
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The Walrus posted:it's just, all of what you're describing is specifically addressed in the script pasted below. its blatantly spelled out. and yeah because its star wars and prophesy exists I take what Luke says at face value. Yes, it is spelled out. As in, it is told to us, not shown. As I've been saying, it's literally all handled in a tossed off line of expository dialogue. Do we see "darkness" building, anything happening during training, what Luke "saw," and how any or all of that actually led to the decision that murdering a child was the correct decision? No. Do we get an inkling of why the guy who'd succeeded in redeeming the ultimate monster before was at the point of murdering a child due to prophetic dreams that the text itself acknowledges were not a valid basis for child murder? No. It's loving dogshit, being self-consistent doesn't mean a thing because it's entirely dependent on knowledge of the OT to "work," and you need to "rationally guess" that Luke would behave in a manner that is entirely unlike any of his previous characterization seriously it is hilariously how badly you're failing to make your case here - you're not pointing to a single thing in the OT that might have led to this course of action on Luke's party, you're simply saying "well if you squint hard enough, incur some mild brain trauma, and reference truisms like "people change," it's possible to pretend a couple decades of unexplored of world-weariness would totally lead the ultimate believer in personal redemption, who had the greatest possible validation of that belief possible, and is a mystic who can see wise ghosts and poo poo, to become a coward who was about to murder his young student/nephew out of unjustified fear" all you're doing is asserting that you're willing to go to far greater lengths to rationalize any steaming load you're presented with (which tbf is one thing I cannot dispute) LGD fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Dec 12, 2019 |
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Dec 12, 2019 00:35
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no I'm just not being nearly as hyperbolic as you are and I just disagree that his portrayal goes as far from his OT portrayal as you are suggesting. if you want a direct link, I have already pointed out the characteristics of willful ignorance and impetuousness, do you need me to give the examples of those traits? additionally, Luke redeemed his father but it was not his mess to clean up. it's a lot harder to correct a problem rationally or in the 'right' way when you have all the guilt for creating it. the OT leaves it to someone new to come in and solve the issues of the past. this should sound familiar. and the whole show not tell argument is ridiculous in comparison to the OT unless you refuse to accept that this is not Luke's story. compare lukes description there to obi wand description of the creation of Darth Vader. why didnt we see that? its because it's not what the movie is about. The Walrus fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Dec 12, 2019 |
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Dec 12, 2019 00:39
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Chomp8645 posted:Yeah man it's in the title and it's coming out in like a week or something. Watch Disney start a Star War 
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Dec 12, 2019 00:41
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