EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Deltasquid posted:

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_19_6286

The absolute mad lads

Luckily the UK has a long history of fighting in the European courts and *checks notes* losing in a humiliating and miserable climbdown. huh.

Sulla Faex posted:

I'll take the job. Do you need to be a tory politician or is it enough to just be a colossal piece of poo poo

Just the latter.

# ? Nov 15, 2019 14:09

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# ? May 25, 2024 20:18

Junior G-man: Sep 15, 2004; Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

Good ... news?

quote:

EU�s development bank sets pace on fossil fuel lending

First movers get to set the rules � which is why the European Investment Bank�s decision to end lending for fossil fuel projects could have a global impact.

The bank is the world�s largest multilateral lender, and it�s also the first to set a lending policy tied to the goals of the Paris Agreement � something other development banks have also pledged to do.

�We do believe we are helping to set the standard for all international institutions for what it means to be Paris aligned,� Andrew McDowell, the bank�s vice president in charge of energy, told reporters on Friday.

The shift in policy approved late Thursday in Luxembourg sends a clear signal that business as usual when it comes to financing big energy projects is dead. Getting the bank�s stamp of approval and cheap finance is crucial for project developers, allowing them to more easily tap private markets.

The rules will end lending to fossil fuel projects as of 2021. That�s a year later than the EIB had originally suggested, but their 2020 proposal sparked a storm of protest from the European Commission and some of the 28 EU countries that are the bank�s shareholders.

The 2021 cut-off will allow for the financing of a last wave of infrastructure projects that have already received EU backing � a compromise the Commission pushed for and said it�s �satisfied� with. By 2025, half of the bank�s investments � it loaned �55.6 billion last year, of which about �16 billion went for energy projects � will go to climate and sustainable investment projects.

From 2022, the bank will only fund gas infrastructure projects if developers make �specific, realistic, time bound commitments� to inject growing shares of low-carbon gases such as hydrogen and biogas into the pipelines, said McDowell.

By 2040 �all these assets are going to be 100 percent carbon free � what we offer in return is long-term, low-cost financing to support them in this process, because it won�t be cheap,� said McDowell.

The bank also set a strict limit for financing power generation projects of 250 grams of carbon dioxide per kilowatt-hour � replacing the old standard of 550 grams. The tougher guidelines exclude not only coal-fired power (which the bank has already stopped financing) but also unabated natural gas � that means projects will have to incorporate technologies like carbon capture and storage to squeeze under that threshold.

In order to soften the blow for the bloc�s poorer countries, the EIB will support the Commission�s plan to set up a Just Transition Fund, aimed at helping higher-emitting regions decarbonize. It will also lend up to 75 percent of the value of projects in the bloc�s 10 poorer countries, instead of its normal threshold of 50 percent.

Even that wasn�t enough to bring all EU countries around.

The new rules were passed Thursday night after an all-day board meeting with 20 votes in favor representing over 90 percent of the bloc�s capital. Six countries abstained, and Hungary, Poland and Romania voted against, two people familiar with the discussion said.

Germany, which had originally been part of a pro-gas bloc, shifted position and backed the rule change.

�The EIB is becoming a climate bank and promoting investment in the protection of our climate, which is good, we have been involved and Germany has approved the new guidelines,� Finance Minister Olaf Scholz said in an emailed statement.

The EIB �has been Europe�s climate bank for many years. Today it has decided to make a quantum leap in its ambition,� Werner Hoyer, the bank�s president, said Thursday.

The Luxembourg decision will be closely watched by the world�s other development banks.

At the 2018 U.N. climate summit in Katowice, Poland, the world�s largest multilateral lenders including the EIB, the World Bank, the European Bank for Construction and Development, the Inter-American Development bank, the African Development Bank, the Asian Development Bank and the Islamic Development Bank all committed to aligning their activities with the goals of the Paris climate agreement.

�We�re constantly asked to do more about the green side, and less on brown side,� said Cristian Carraretto, associate director of the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development. �We still believe today it still makes sense to finance gas, but ask me in 10 years and it could be a different answer.�

The EIB is answering that question now.

�While the EIB could have agreed to phase out fossil fuel financing earlier, this is an important step for the financial sector broadly,� Leonardo Martinez-Diaz, director of the Sustainable Finance Center at the World Resources Institute, an NGO, said in a statement. �We strongly encourage the boards of the other multilateral development banks to match or exceed this level of ambition and leadership.�

I mean, could've been more and could've been faster, but it's a good step.

# ? Nov 15, 2019 16:25

oscarthewilde: May 16, 2012; I would often go there
To the tiny church there

Orange Devil posted:

Sure, but my first moral imperative is to call out the bullshit of my own government. Love your link by the way, this part in particular is a recurring motif of Dutch government policy, especially pertaining to the environment:

With the current nitrogen deposits exceeding allowed maximums in nature areas we saw the same logic: "Let's just reduce the number of nature areas!".

Also reminds me of the time back when I was in high school and during geography class we covered that my part of the Netherlands (West-Brabant) has some of the highest particulate matter densities in the air of all of the EU. It makes sense, since we're situated right between the two large port areas of Rotterdam and Antwerp and there's a bunch of highways as well. But you know, the density was now exceeding the government maximum, so it was time for action. Action was swiftly taken by the government: the maximum was increased.

Also, reading the rest of your link, what a massive failure by the Dutch press to continue to present pulse fishing as (pretty much scientifically proven) more environmentally friendly. Some of the poo poo in that report is just horrendous.

i'm curious actually, nitrogen is the big issue in dutch politics right now, with plans to decrease the speedlimit from 130/120 to 100, an incredibly unpopular move, especially for the right-liberal VVD and the christian-conservative CDA, parties with a traditionally strong pro-car lobby (turns out rich people really like their big expensive cars), but are the limits on nitrogen emission and production a problem anywhere else?

# ? Nov 15, 2019 17:31

Junior G-man: Sep 15, 2004; Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

oscarthewilde posted:

i'm curious actually, nitrogen is the big issue in dutch politics right now, with plans to decrease the speedlimit from 130/120 to 100, an incredibly unpopular move, especially for the right-liberal VVD and the christian-conservative CDA, parties with a traditionally strong pro-car lobby (turns out rich people really like their big expensive cars), but are the limits on nitrogen emission and production a problem anywhere else?

Belgium, especially Flanders, and parts of Germany have giant problems of similar scale (and origin).

# ? Nov 15, 2019 22:26

Lord Stimperor: Jun 13, 2018; I'm a lovable meme.

Orange Devil posted:

Sure, but my first moral imperative is to call out the bullshit of my own government. Love your link by the way, this part in particular is a recurring motif of Dutch government policy, especially pertaining to the environment:

With the current nitrogen deposits exceeding allowed maximums in nature areas we saw the same logic: "Let's just reduce the number of nature areas!".

Also reminds me of the time back when I was in high school and during geography class we covered that my part of the Netherlands (West-Brabant) has some of the highest particulate matter densities in the air of all of the EU. It makes sense, since we're situated right between the two large port areas of Rotterdam and Antwerp and there's a bunch of highways as well. But you know, the density was now exceeding the government maximum, so it was time for action. Action was swiftly taken by the government: the maximum was increased.

I love pragmatic thinking.

I once loved in a town that had large amounts of unemployed and poor benefit recipients, largely concentrated in one neighbourhood. Today the poverty rate is strongly reduced in that area. Great! But why? Turns out the city decided to tear down and not replace part of the social housing there as part of large scale renovation and improvement efforts. The poors simply were sent off to neighbouring municipalities. A job well done, everybody give yourselves a pat on the back!

When I lived there, the same city also informed me that many of the homes on my street were no longer considered fit for habitation. A study had revealed that the noise level from the street exceeded the city wide limits. But fear not that you or your landlord might have to conduct expensive renovations: the city was able to raise the limits so that all the houses were habitable again. Great poldering this out!

# ? Nov 15, 2019 23:51

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Lord Stimperor posted:

I love pragmatic thinking.

I once loved in a town that had large amounts of unemployed and poor benefit recipients, largely concentrated in one neighbourhood. Today the poverty rate is strongly reduced in that area. Great! But why? Turns out the city decided to tear down and not replace part of the social housing there as part of large scale renovation and improvement efforts. The poors simply were sent off to neighbouring municipalities. A job well done, everybody give yourselves a pat on the back!

When I lived there, the same city also informed me that many of the homes on my street were no longer considered fit for habitation. A study had revealed that the noise level from the street exceeded the city wide limits. But fear not that you or your landlord might have to conduct expensive renovations: the city was able to raise the limits so that all the houses were habitable again. Great poldering this out!

It's literally the government telling you: "we've decided we aren't going to do our jobs".

# ? Nov 16, 2019 14:53

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Ah, so it's not just anglo countries that put the homeless on one-way tickets to other parts of the country so someone else has the problem.

# ? Nov 16, 2019 15:13

MiddleOne: Feb 17, 2011

Tesseraction posted:

Ah, so it's not just anglo countries that put the homeless on one-way tickets to other parts of the country so someone else has the problem.

It's funny, around the time my grandparents became adults police would round up homeless people and drop them at the municipal border. Today we're only a few steps divorced from being back to that.

# ? Nov 16, 2019 17:46

Picardy Beet: Feb 7, 2006; Singing in the summer.

Junior G-man posted:

Good ... news?

I mean, could've been more and could've been faster, but it's a good step.

..or a bad joke in guise of greenwashing : oil importation into UE has fallen 14% since 2006. North sea natural gas saw its peak in 2005. Also IEA finally aknowledged in 2018 conventional crude peaked in 2008 (and nobody cared). TLDR : They just stop financing oil, because there isn't really any oil to finance anymore.

# ? Nov 17, 2019 16:29

Junior G-man: Sep 15, 2004; Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

Bit of crossposting but might be interesting for the people in here too. As you may (not) know, the UKMT has its own podcast, Podcasting is Praxis, and we've recently recorded a special on the EU - it's sort of a primer for UK people but maybe you find it interesting?

https://twitter.com/PraxisCast/status/1197811937343610880?s=20

# ? Nov 22, 2019 10:55

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-idUSKBN1Y01W0

quote:

Ankara has told its NATO envoy not to sign off on the plan and is taking a tough line in meetings and in private conversations, demanding the alliance recognize the YPG as terrorists in the formal wording, the sources said.

[...]

NATO envoys are seeking formal approval by all 29 member states for the military plan to defend Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia in the event of a Russian attack.

It's so great that EU countries all insist that collective defense must be done through NATO so as to give Turkey a right of veto over defense of the Baltics. So great.

# ? Nov 26, 2019 21:03

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

Cat Mattress posted:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-idUSKBN1Y01W0

It's so great that EU countries all insist that collective defense must be done through NATO so as to give Turkey a right of veto over defense of the Baltics. So great.

Using the baltic as a bargaining chip has always been the way things are dome

# ? Nov 28, 2019 19:31

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Perfidious Albion finally going to actually Brexit, save rest of Europe from itself by falling on own sword :hellyeah:

# ? Dec 14, 2019 12:00

Factor_VIII: Feb 2, 2005; Les soldats se trouvent dans la v�rit�.

suck my woke dick posted:

Perfidious Albion finally going to actually Brexit, save rest of Europe from itself by falling on own sword

Britain is nobly sacrificing itself in order to show to the other European nations why the EU is important.

The fact that calls for withdrawal from the EU have died away in other states is the silver lining of this poo poo show.

# ? Dec 14, 2019 12:21

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

Cat Mattress posted:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-idUSKBN1Y01W0

It's so great that EU countries all insist that collective defense must be done through NATO so as to give Turkey a right of veto over defense of the Baltics. So great.

Though let's be fair, this time won't be a veto, NATO will simply throw the YPG under the bus and feel very sad about it

In the future however, yeah probably

Libluini fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Dec 14, 2019

# ? Dec 14, 2019 12:25

Venomous: Nov 7, 2011

The EU should straight up federalise now. gently caress it. Nationalism is poison and the EU should strengthen itself to prevent this poo poo from happening again

# ? Dec 14, 2019 12:27

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

lol the EU is the single best thing to happen to reactionary nationalism since the war

an unaccountable central regime with arcane rules which sits around eating expensive lunches while everything gets worse is the perfect target for nationalist discontent

the EU is a fundamentally broken institution. it is not the answer to anything at all

# ? Dec 14, 2019 12:39

Haramstufe Rot: Jun 24, 2016

V. Illych L. posted:

lol the EU is the single best thing to happen to reactionary nationalism since the war

an unaccountable central regime with arcane rules which sits around eating expensive lunches while everything gets worse is the perfect target for nationalist discontent

the EU is a fundamentally broken institution. it is not the answer to anything at all

On the other hand, I am like the first person in my entire lineage that didn't have to fight a war against a neighbor country, which is pretty cool.

# ? Dec 14, 2019 12:53

Doktor Avalanche: Dec 30, 2008

caps on caps on caps posted:

On the other hand, I am like the first person in my entire lineage that didn't have to fight a war against a neighbor country

yet

# ? Dec 14, 2019 12:59

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

caps on caps on caps posted:

On the other hand, I am like the first person in my entire lineage that didn't have to fight a war against a neighbor country, which is pretty cool.

honestly think that the cold war is what you have to thank for that

# ? Dec 14, 2019 13:01

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

V. Illych L. posted:

honestly think that the cold war is what you have to thank for that

considering how many wars the cold war produced, you're very wrong to think that

# ? Dec 14, 2019 13:02

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

a war in europe was too risky. the soviets quashed any large-scale conflicts in their zone of control and the americans did the same in theirs. the EU does not account for the lack of conflict in eastern europe; only the dominance of a superpower does that

# ? Dec 14, 2019 13:05

Factor_VIII: Feb 2, 2005; Les soldats se trouvent dans la v�rit�.

V. Illych L. posted:

the EU is a fundamentally broken institution. it is not the answer to anything at all

The EU has flaws but its the best hope for European cooperation and solidarity. For example the European Regional Development Fund helps poorer regions of the EU improve and the European Court allows citizens to appeal against unjust decisions from their own governments. The EU is complex because it had to built on compromise rather than being imposed upon Europe by a conqueror, and it is accountable to the democratically elected governments of its members. Subscribing to a populist smear that the EU is a bunch of stuck up bureaucrats who do nothing to help others is neither accurate nor helpful. What are you proposing; dismantling the EU and going back to the era of competing and potentially hostile nation-states that existed before it?

V. Illych L. posted:

honestly think that the cold war is what you have to thank for that

The cold war has been over for almost 30 years. That's plenty of time in which to start a war.

# ? Dec 14, 2019 13:13

Blut: Sep 11, 2009; if someone is in the bottom 10%~ of a guillotine

For all its other faults the EU has contributed massively to the longest period of peace in European history. It has succeeded completely in what was the original primary goal of its establishment.

I have sympathy for British people now facing 5 years of Tory abuse of power but Boris winning and Brexit actually happening is probably a better result for the EU than a LibDem/LAB coalition having a second referendum, and the UK very grudgingly staying in, would have been. All those Brexit party MEPs were not going to be constructive European parliamentarians.

Things can get along with further and deeper integration now, and let the UK apply to rejoin in a decade or two minus its rebate and its ego.

# ? Dec 14, 2019 13:19

BlankSystemDaemon: Mar 13, 2009

V. Illych L. posted:

a war in europe was too risky. the soviets quashed any large-scale conflicts in their zone of control and the americans did the same in theirs. the EU does not account for the lack of conflict in eastern europe; only the dominance of a superpower does that

Are you forgetting just how frequently wars were happening in europe even before the two world wars?

I'm not saying EU is all-great, it has plenty of problems - but they're ones that can be solved without sending young people to their deaths.

# ? Dec 14, 2019 13:40

An insane mind: Aug 11, 2018

I just hope the U.K. actually starts prepping for Brexit. I don't want medicine shortages to kill people. I want people to be ok :ohdear:

# ? Dec 14, 2019 13:44

MiddleOne: Feb 17, 2011

The basis of the claim that the EU has created peace in Europe is iffy at best. A much stronger argument can and has been made that american military hegemony (read: NATO) is what stands as the basis of the long peace.

No room for petty squables when a dominating military enforces decorum.

# ? Dec 14, 2019 13:46

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

D. Ebdrup posted:

Are you forgetting just how frequently wars were happening in europe even before the two world wars?

I'm not saying EU is all-great, it has plenty of problems - but they're ones that can be solved without sending young people to their deaths.

this isn't contradicting my point at all though

Factor_VIII posted:

The EU has flaws but its the best hope for European cooperation and solidarity. For example the European Regional Development Fund helps poorer regions of the EU improve and the European Court allows citizens to appeal against unjust decisions from their own governments. The EU is complex because it had to built on compromise rather than being imposed upon Europe by a conqueror, and it is accountable to the democratically elected governments of its members. Subscribing to a populist smear that the EU is a bunch of stuck up bureaucrats who do nothing to help others is neither accurate nor helpful. What are you proposing; dismantling the EU and going back to the era of competing and potentially hostile nation-states tuhat existed before it?

The cold war has been over for almost 30 years. That's plenty of time in which to start a war.

the EU *is* a bunch of stuck-up bureaucrats. they try their best, of course, but their way of solving problems doesn't work. means-testing, intricate incentive structures to maximise free trade and marketisation are not solutions which can work for the problems we're facing today, and the EU's veto policy functions like the liberum veto in the polish-lithuanian commonwealth, making it insanely vulnerable to bad faith and basically impossible to reform the institution

the EU is moribound. being less awful than the US or china us not enough

# ? Dec 14, 2019 14:19

Private Speech: Mar 30, 2011; I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.

MiddleOne posted:

The basis of the claim that the EU has created peace in Europe is iffy at best. A much stronger argument can and has been made that american military hegemony (read: NATO) is what stands as the basis of the long peace.

No room for petty squables when a dominating military enforces decorum.

Looking at Cyprus and Turkey, uhh. As long as neither are important members you mean.
_{Or Cyprus and Britain for that matter.}

e: ^^^ There's precious few nations and institutions which aren't terrible by that metric.

Private Speech fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Dec 14, 2019

# ? Dec 14, 2019 14:20

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

MiddleOne posted:

The basis of the claim that the EU has created peace in Europe is iffy at best. A much stronger argument can and has been made that american military hegemony (read: NATO) is what stands as the basis of the long peace.

No room for petty squables when a dominating military enforces decorum.

This is a bit backwards, as the EU can not have created peace in Europe as the EU didn't exist when NATO was formed. But the EU today guarantees peace a lot better than our unreliable hegemon

# ? Dec 14, 2019 14:44

Factor_VIII: Feb 2, 2005; Les soldats se trouvent dans la v�rit�.

V. Illych L. posted:

the EU *is* a bunch of stuck-up bureaucrats. they try their best, of course, but their way of solving problems doesn't work. means-testing, intricate incentive structures to maximise free trade and marketisation are not solutions which can work for the problems we're facing today, and the EU's veto policy functions like the liberum veto in the polish-lithuanian commonwealth, making it insanely vulnerable to bad faith and basically impossible to reform the institution

The EU does have flaws, but I believe that it is more flexible and capable than you think. For example the Eurozone used to have no mechanism for bailing out member states if they went bankrupt but when the 2008 crisis hit, it was able to create the European Stability Mechanism and rescue Ireland, Cyprus, Greece and Portugal. The process was drawn out and had flaws, but none of these countries declared formal bankruptcy and their economies have been recovering since then. Many people thought that the Eurozone would collapse but its members did do what was necessary to ensure its survival.

Private Speech posted:

Looking at Cyprus and Turkey, uhh. As long as neither are important members you mean.
_{Or Cyprus and Britain for that matter.}

Yeah, NATO isn't good at keeping the peace between its member states. For example it has a policy of strict neutrality when it comes to Greece and Turkey and hadn't intervened the three times the two states nearly went to war. Another recent example is that Turkey last week decided to split up the Eastern Mediterranean with a strongman it's supporting in Libya while ignoring Greek and Cypriot territory in direct violation of the UN convention on the law of the sea. Turkey now claims that e.g. the waters south and east of Crete are its territorial waters and that Greece has no claim to them and NATO stays silent. It's an organization that was never designed to ensure that its members coexist peacefully and has no interest in punishing members that violate international law.

# ? Dec 14, 2019 15:58

MiddleOne: Feb 17, 2011

Libluini posted:

This is a bit backwards, as the EU can not have created peace in Europe as the EU didn't exist when NATO was formed. But the EU today guarantees peace a lot better than our unreliable hegemon

I'm sorry to inform you that the hegemonic US military presence in Europe predates NATO. As for the second claim, that theory is sure to be put to the test at the pace our nations keep going fascist.

Private Speech posted:

Looking at Cyprus and Turkey, uhh. As long as neither are important members you mean.
_{Or Cyprus and Britain for that matter.}

Well yeah obviously. Though I'm sure Turkey and Greece would have gone to war by now proper if not for the US keeping them at arms length.

Factor_VIII posted:

The EU does have flaws, but I believe that it is more flexible and capable than you think. For example the Eurozone used to have no mechanism for bailing out member states if they went bankrupt but when the 2008 crisis hit, it was able to create the European Stability Mechanism and rescue Ireland, Cyprus, Greece and Portugal. The process was drawn out and had flaws, but none of these countries declared formal bankruptcy and their economies have been recovering since then. Many people thought that the Eurozone would collapse but its members did do what was necessary to ensure its survival.

The Eurozone is still very much collapsing. Also the countries haven't been saved from bankruptcy at all, a country can't go into bankruptcy and their economies have either stagnated (Greece), declined (Ireland) or succeeded by going mostly against the decrees enforced on them (Portugal). The jury is still very much out on the Eurozone surviving another financial crash.

Ireland is funny because it looks okayish by the numbers but then you remember that they're a tax shelter for international corporations and that much of their recovery comes from a re-booming FIRE-sector. Suddenly things seem a tad more worrying.

MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Dec 14, 2019

# ? Dec 14, 2019 16:05

Factor_VIII: Feb 2, 2005; Les soldats se trouvent dans la v�rit�.

MiddleOne posted:

The Eurozone is still very much collapsing. Also the countries haven't been saved from bankruptcy at all, a country can't go into bankruptcy and their economies have either stagnated (Greece), declined (Ireland) or succeeded by going mostly against the decrees enforced on them (Portugal).

Ireland is funny because it looks okayish by the numbers but then you remember that they're a tax shelter for international corporations and that much of their recovery comes from a re-booming FIRE-sector.

Ireland had a GDP of 275 billion USD in 2008 and 334 billion USD in 2017 so what metric are you using to state that its economy has declined? Greece had started to recover in 2014 until the populist government that took over in 2015 tanked its economy. Greece has started to recover once again over the past couple of years. Why do you say that Portugal didn't follow its economic adjustment program? From what I've read Portugal did follow its instructions such as reducing state spending or privatizing state-owned corporations.

# ? Dec 14, 2019 16:28

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Factor_VIII posted:

Ireland had a GDP of 275 billion USD in 2008 and 334 billion USD in 2017 so what metric are you using to state that its economy has declined?

Talk to me about metrics involving people rather than "the economy". More money for rich people doesn't interest me.

# ? Dec 14, 2019 16:29

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

MiddleOne posted:

I'm sorry to inform you that the hegemonic US military presence in Europe predates NATO.

By like four years, four years spend with slow rebuilding after WWII. Besides, NATO is the American military hegemony, trying to see a difference between both is a fool's choice.

The US in Europe in between 1945-1949 is basically the Proto-NATO. :colbert:

# ? Dec 14, 2019 16:35

100YrsofAttitude: Apr 29, 2013

MiddleOne posted:

Well yeah obviously. Though I'm sure Turkey and Greece would have gone to war by now proper if not for the US keeping them at arms length.

It's pretty crazy at times to think of the wars that the US just being around has stopped from breaking out (even if they're busy making war elsewhere).

Having learned about Korea and Japan's shared past, it's shocking that they're not more at each other's throats, and that's probably got to do with them being both closely allied to the US, and having a fair amount of their military on site.

# ? Dec 14, 2019 16:37

Factor_VIII: Feb 2, 2005; Les soldats se trouvent dans la v�rit�.

Orange Devil posted:

Talk to me about metrics involving people rather than "the economy". More money for rich people doesn't interest me.

Ireland had a 31.9% Gini coefficient in 2014, which means it has fairly high income equality.

# ? Dec 14, 2019 16:38

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Venomous posted:

The EU should straight up federalise now. gently caress it. Nationalism is poison and the EU should strengthen itself to prevent this poo poo from happening again

Turning the EU into an actual federal state would require a massive dose of (Pan-European) nationalism.

Our monkey brains are wired to emotionally work with in-groups and out-groups. Nationalism is what allows to include all your fellow citizens of your country in your in-group, even if they're complete strangers. If you don't have nationalism, it'll be something else, and chances are the in-group will be smaller than when it's all the nationals. Perhaps it'll be sectarianism, perhaps it'll be regionalism, regardless it's going to exclude more people from the in-group.

The entire thing about self-determination is that you can't force people who don't feel they belong together to live together. How do you get people to feel that they belong together? By convincing them they're part of the same nation.

Factor_VIII posted:

Yeah, NATO isn't good at keeping the peace between its member states. For example it has a policy of strict neutrality when it comes to Greece and Turkey and hadn't intervened the three times the two states nearly went to war. Another recent example is that Turkey last week decided to split up the Eastern Mediterranean with a strongman it's supporting in Libya while ignoring Greek and Cypriot territory in direct violation of the UN convention on the law of the sea. Turkey now claims that e.g. the waters south and east of Crete are its territorial waters and that Greece has no claim to them and NATO stays silent. It's an organization that was never designed to ensure that its members coexist peacefully and has no interest in punishing members that violate international law.

NATO is brain-dead, that's one of the few things on which Jupiter is right.

Did you know there's a whole political side to NATO? With a Parliament and all? You'd be hard-pressed to come up with an example of a thing it has achieved.

# ? Dec 14, 2019 17:48

Karenina: Jul 10, 2013

For a fun time, check out NATO's post-Cold War strategic concepts and all the vague but riveting things they've committed themselves to in this increasingly complex and interconnected world. Then look at what they've actually done.

Libluini posted:

By like four years, four years spend with slow rebuilding after WWII. Besides, NATO is the American military hegemony, trying to see a difference between both is a fool's choice.

The US in Europe in between 1945-1949 is basically the Proto-NATO.

Right. The US has also repeatedly quashed any efforts at a European-led alternative (or, hell, complement) to NATO even when NATO and US foreign policy more broadly run counter to member states' security interests. Presidents and pundits here have griped about Europeans not paying enough for their own defense since the days of Eisenhower while mostly shrugging off US responsibility for that situation.

Karenina fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Dec 14, 2019

# ? Dec 14, 2019 18:40

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# ? May 25, 2024 20:18

Venomous: Nov 7, 2011

Cat Mattress posted:

Turning the EU into an actual federal state would require a massive dose of (Pan-European) nationalism.

Our monkey brains are wired to emotionally work with in-groups and out-groups. Nationalism is what allows to include all your fellow citizens of your country in your in-group, even if they're complete strangers. If you don't have nationalism, it'll be something else, and chances are the in-group will be smaller than when it's all the nationals. Perhaps it'll be sectarianism, perhaps it'll be regionalism, regardless it's going to exclude more people from the in-group.

The entire thing about self-determination is that you can't force people who don't feel they belong together to live together. How do you get people to feel that they belong together? By convincing them they're part of the same nation.

You are absolutely right and I hate it. :sigh:

Europe as a concrete thing is hosed.

Reminded myself of that Blyth bit. Macron says 'More Europe!' The rest of Europe says 'NO!'

# ? Dec 14, 2019 19:55

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

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