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The press will continue to do whatever it wants and make stuff up, so I say we ignore them and choose based on who would be best to lead and start demoninising/othering the regular media. There is no point whatsoever courting them unless you want to be full right wing or right wing lite. 342 A rational number, full of vim and vigour.
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Dec 17, 2019 08:42
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VideoGames posted:The press will continue to do whatever it wants and make stuff up, so I say we ignore them and choose based on who would be best to lead and start demoninising/othering the regular media. There is no point whatsoever courting them unless you want to be full right wing or right wing lite. I’d still prefer it the other way around though, Rayner as LOTO and RLB as McDonnell v2.0
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Dec 17, 2019 08:43
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Kokoro Wish posted:Also really, not just the leader, but all Labour reps and party members who can need to just be out there in communities and actually doing things. Parallell structures of community support need to be built by Labour in the same way that far right parallell structures are built to give themselves a presence. ThomasPaine posted:I have been saying since Corbyn was elected leader that Labour should definitely be moving towards being a much more self consciously capital-P Party. First, Labour has got an awful lot of institutional baggage and its structures are going to force particular ways of thinking on the people involved; any changes will be thought of primarily in terms of what it can do for the party rather than what the party can do for people. Actions and plans will be conceived of by higher-ups in terms of vote-winning rather than the material effects, because that's how Labour, and the people in it, do things; they will try and impose that framework on local organisation. Second, any organisation that's been around for as long as Labour has will likely be capable of stabilising itself against disturbances (including attempts at restructuring) in such a way that its output remains the broadly the same, a sort of organisational equilibrium; we might end up making changes within only to find the output is still top-down dominating electoralism. I'm not sure if it's actually possible to turn the Labour Party into a mass party rather than a machine for electoral politics - we'd be working against the institutional structure and the thought of most of the people within it. I think parallel and allied might be manageable without getting turned into a vote-winnning extension, though it'd have to be distinct and separate enough to push back against electoral tendencies. ed: birbs for new page, an editing Operation to insert the Yellowhammer  
CGI Stardust fucked around with this message at 08:54 on Dec 17, 2019 |
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Dec 17, 2019 08:51
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Yeah, don't fall into the trap of thinking that there's a left-leaning candidate that the media would ever accept: there isn't. Concentrate solely on which candidate is the best one to lead the party forwards and disregard 'media friendliness'.
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Dec 17, 2019 08:54
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Johnson will make it illegal for the government to ask for any further Brexit extension This is excellent news... if you're an accelerationist. Finally, the hated state will literally murder itself
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Dec 17, 2019 09:08
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On nationalism and the leadership, what are the odds of Boris going full Trump against a female Labour leader and talking about how his Strong Virile Brexit will Split the World Wide Open? Seems like the sort of thing that would lead to a lot of outrage over misogyny but be great fuel for gammon man. On the Brexit extension law: I'm so glad I'm leaving the UK.
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Dec 17, 2019 09:18
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I agree video games but I don't think it is a good idea to put two people, both young in their political careers, up as leadership material. Bojo is a gobshite but he's going to exploit that like no one's business. I'd like to see an old hand and rising star pairing if possible.
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Dec 17, 2019 09:41
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VideoGames posted:The press will continue to do whatever it wants and make stuff up, so I say we ignore them and choose based on who would be best to lead and start demoninising/othering the regular media. There is no point whatsoever courting them unless you want to be full right wing or right wing lite. I have been thinking along similar lines. In fact, I think Labour representatives should take a far more combative approach to the media. Media bias is firmly in the public consciousness now, and there's no benefit being conciliatory with committed bad-faith actors. The Right play-acts at being the scrappy outsider put upon by a biased media, but two can play at that game. Every time the media tries a gotcha, the response should be: "Here's why that accusation is wrong. Meanwhile the Tories are doing X, which is worse than what you say you're concerned about. Why aren't you reporting that?" Turn it around into an attack on both the Right and the media. They'll call it whataboutery, but you've got your point out there and they were going to call you something bad anyway. You're concerned we're not economically credible? The Tories have doubled the national debt and are giving away NHS patient data to megacorps for free. You're concerned we might not keep our promises? The Tories revealed one of their manifesto pledges was a lie 2 days after the election, and 88% of their election advertising was dishonest, compared to none of Labour's. You're concerned about Labour antisemitism? We've acted to combat that and the Labour Party now has a lower incidence of antisemitism than any other political party. The Tories put up a statue to a Nazi sympathiser, their leader thinks Jewish people control the media, and they've had numerous incidences of party members making antisemitic comments with little to no action. You're concerned about left-wing violence? It's rare and we act to put an end to it at all times. Meanwhile, the Tories are encouraging anger and violence, and hate crimes have shot up in the wake of all of their recent electoral wins. Labour members were physically attacked and hospitalised during the election campaign. Why aren't you concerned about the rise of right-wing violence? Why aren't you reporting any of this? Why are you all loving Tory lapdogs? If the media cannot be fair towards us, then gently caress the media. Anger at the state of things should be our message going forward. Justified anger, anger for the sake of the people, and harnessing the anger of the people. Turn it towards the real culprits. We are the outsiders. We are the underdogs. Let's make hay out of it. Braggart fucked around with this message at 09:45 on Dec 17, 2019 |
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Dec 17, 2019 09:41
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Braggart posted:I have been thinking along similar lines. Underdogs only tend to win in movies. And to ignore the media completely, or just bang on about it being biased may not help either - one of the talking points was that the Corbyn win would show the media has lost its power. I think the opposite has been proven true. The question then is how to use the media for our own ends, if such a thing is possible.
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Dec 17, 2019 09:51
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Purple Prince posted:On nationalism and the leadership, what are the odds of Boris going full Trump against a female Labour leader and talking about how his Strong Virile Brexit will Split the World Wide Open? Seems like the sort of thing that would lead to a lot of outrage over misogyny but be great fuel for gammon man. If he tries that then the Labour Leader should respond by ridiculing his masculinity. Hit him where it hurts. Yeah, I know, that's lovely, but: A) Who gives a gently caress about Boris' feelings? Angry upset Boris will make unforced mistakes. B) Gammons really care about that kind of rubbish. If a Tory is trying to set himself up as a big masculine man who will protect us all, we need to attack that in a way that will resonate with the target audience. We can't just allow underhand tactics to work because the high ground doesn't allow for a response. C) The media loves scandal and drama. Make the story about Boris being a pathetic ageing schoolboy who can't hack it against a vibrant young leftie. We're being mean? Who cares? It shows we have no respect for Johnson and hits right at something he's trying to make into a strength. How's your strongman gonna strong if he can't even live up to your dumb sexist ideals? Frankly I think it would do more to discredit these ingrained sexist ideas than entrench them anyway, and ignoring them is just going to let them entrench themselves.
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Dec 17, 2019 09:58
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Ignoring them. People secretly love it when you stand up to bosses and authority. Not going on he climate change debate or andrew niel certainly did not hurt Johnson. Now imagine that we ignore them all. They will be clamouring to eventually be the one to get an interview or soundbite. A total media blackout would drive them loopy and would highlight the faults. Taking away their ability to engage but only using alternative media means negates their power.
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Dec 17, 2019 09:58
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You can frame a narrative in the absence of input from the subject of that narrative, and a weak and evasive women who can’t handle questioning will be wrecked by it in the same way as Theresa May was. Boris was largely untouchable because he was one of them, and a man.
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Dec 17, 2019 10:00
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Pesmerga posted:Underdogs only tend to win in movies. And to ignore the media completely, or just bang on about it being biased may not help either - one of the talking points was that the Corbyn win would show the media has lost its power. I think the opposite has been proven true. I don't think underdogs win. Underdogs lose because the system is stacked against them. However, the Tories are claiming to be the underdog, when in fact we are. If that's a narrative that works, let's appropriate it. It could benefit us while reducing the benefit to the Tories. I am not saying to ignore the media. My post is about changing our approach to interacting with the media. In fact: quote:The question then is how to use the media for our own ends, if such a thing is possible. This is precisely what my post is about.
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Dec 17, 2019 10:01
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https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1206857249001529344 Hmm.
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Dec 17, 2019 10:03
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Pesmerga posted:You can frame a narrative in the absence of input from the subject of that narrative, and a weak and evasive women who can’t handle questioning will be wrecked by it in the same way as Theresa May was. Boris was largely untouchable because he was one of them, and a man. Exactly. We need to be strident, self-confident and pissed off. We need to be hammering home that the Tories are the problem, and you're not hearing about it because the BBC etc are their lapdogs. There is no point extending an olive branch to people who will just break it off and try to hit you with it. Nice leftism gets ignored. Get angry, and be clear about who you're angry at and why.
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Dec 17, 2019 10:03
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https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/scouse-not-english-how-merseyside-17420602 Hopefully more people start standing up against this English identity poo poo.
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Dec 17, 2019 10:05
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Braggart posted:https://twitter.com/JessePi45331178/status/1206184977517428736 Looks like it'd fit in well with the upcoming London Resort  quote:The first pictures of The London Resort, a £3.5bn theme park set to open in 2024, have been released. Seen as the centrists still cream themselves over the 2012 olympics I reckon this will be right up their street. Also - I don't think we need to pivot to nationalist socialism to win an election? That sounds more like a party I'd be fighting against rather than voting for. I think just acknowledging places like Accrington, Huddersfield, Rhyl, Rugby etc. exist and doing stuff in towns would work better. The IPPR have done some research into towns that's worth a read. Many governmental bodies made strategies in 2015 up to now based almost entirely around supporting cities, partly as a way to raise awareness of what they do in major population areas to save themselves. I think this was a bit of a fuckup as you ignored a majority of the country. Still dreaming of a northern independence 
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Dec 17, 2019 10:06
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Eating the Green Party would be helpful. If we get a leader in who continues to adopt comparable environmental (and economic) policies, what are the chances we could convince them to fold or at the very least ally, maybe run a few of their candidates in target seats and throw Caroline Lucas a ministerial position? Actually, how many seats would have not gone Tory if the LAB/GRN vote was combined? Stroud for one, but how many more?
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Dec 17, 2019 10:26
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Like, seriously, the Right's response to "look how terrible they are!" is to revel in it. Of course the snowflakes think we're terrible - we're strong serious REAL MEN (+ miscellaneous). We tell it like it is. The response to that should be contempt. And when they whine about it, go: "Oh sorry, did that hurt your feelings? What happened to the big strong man you said you were? What's with the sudden flip into crying about mean lefties?" Looking weak is the worst possible thing for their credibility with their base. Let's make it happen.
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Dec 17, 2019 10:26
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Braggart posted:I don't think underdogs win. Underdogs lose because the system is stacked against them. Oh, on that, I agree definitely. It's more we need to think more about how we do it, because it would be easy to turn whatever is being talked about into 'RLB rails against "media bias"'. So angry and unflinching is fine, but what is said is also important. sebzilla posted:Eating the Green Party would be helpful. If we get a leader in who continues to adopt comparable environmental (and economic) policies, what are the chances we could convince them to fold or at the very least ally, maybe run a few of their candidates in target seats and throw Caroline Lucas a ministerial position? Agree with this one too. The manifesto was more environmentally friendly than the Green one - absorbing them into the Labour Party while the eco-nationalists jump to the Lib-Dems or Conservatives would be a good move. Hell, offer Caroline Lucas the environment position in the shadow cabinet.
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Dec 17, 2019 10:29
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I'm concerned about RLB's relative lack of Parliamentary experience but on the other hand, yeah, David Cameron had the same when he became leader. We've got time to think carefully and pick the right candidate tho, so no need to rush into a decision.
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Dec 17, 2019 10:32
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Pesmerga posted:Oh, on that, I agree definitely. It's more we need to think more about how we do it, because it would be easy to turn whatever is being talked about into 'RLB rails against "media bias"'. So angry and unflinching is fine, but what is said is also important. Which is why you do it as a response to bad-faith gotcha attempts. You don't call a press conference to cry about media bias against you, you hammer the point every time the media demonstrates it. Blunt their attacks on you and turn the spotlight against them and the Tories. All of the time. Get traction behind that message.
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Dec 17, 2019 10:33
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Total Meatlove posted:The papers love that you can make her name say Wrong-Daily and you should be prepared to hear Hugh Dennis make the joke forever Bong-Daily 
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Dec 17, 2019 10:36
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Guavanaut posted:https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/scouse-not-english-how-merseyside-17420602 This has been a thing in Liverpool for years, and crops up every International break in football.
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Dec 17, 2019 10:36
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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sebzilla posted:Eating the Green Party would be helpful. If we get a leader in who continues to adopt comparable environmental (and economic) policies, what are the chances we could convince them to fold or at the very least ally, maybe run a few of their candidates in target seats and throw Caroline Lucas a ministerial position? Don’t assume that all greens are “far left”, there’s such a phenomenon called “tories in wellies”
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Dec 17, 2019 10:43
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Jel Shaker posted:Don’t assume that all greens are “far left”, there’s such a phenomenon called “tories in wellies” HJB posted:This has been a thing in Liverpool for years, and crops up every International break in football.
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Dec 17, 2019 10:53
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Jel Shaker posted:Don’t assume that all greens are “far left”, there’s such a phenomenon called “tories in wellies” That's true of some voters I suppose but in terms of candidates and in particular their recent manifestos they might as well be a Labour affiliate. We already run Labour Co-Op candidates, why not Labour Green?
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Dec 17, 2019 11:01
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Jel Shaker posted:Don’t assume that all greens are “far left”, there’s such a phenomenon called “tories in wellies” 
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Dec 17, 2019 11:05
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I have appreciated the amount of tweets I have seen recently just saying Pig nonce cameron. It has a certain cadence.
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Dec 17, 2019 11:10
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VideoGames posted:I have appreciated the amount of tweets I have seen recently just saying Pig nonce cameron. It has a certain cadence. A certain pignoncé quoi.
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Dec 17, 2019 11:11
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The Labour manifesto was very close to the Green manifesto in terms of environmental policy. However while we had the better potential to affect policy, it was their vote share that went up, not ours. I'm not sure about the Green voter breakdown regarding how many were voting in safe Tory seats vs marginal etcetera, but we have to consider the strong possibility that a Green vote is a protest vote against Labour. It's not obvious then that if we were to consume the Green Party that their voters would follow.
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Dec 17, 2019 11:16
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One big big big problem with the whole "Labour party as a mass movement" thing is that the membership is already concentrated on cities. If the plan is to get the membership to help out in these neglected towns then they kind of already need to be there, or people need to go to towns from cities which sounds like a big ask?
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Dec 17, 2019 11:22
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It’s ok lads and lasses, just need to wait 30 years until the boomers all die off then society can actually start working again
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Dec 17, 2019 11:23
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Pistol_Pete posted:Yeah, don't fall into the trap of thinking that there's a left-leaning candidate that the media would ever accept: there isn't. Concentrate solely on which candidate is the best one to lead the party forwards and disregard 'media friendliness'. i don't know why i'm getting involved in this but the left can't say that the media toxified and smeared corbyn which led to his historically bad approval ratings and then say this is evidence labour should disregard media coverage and elect someone similarly unequipped to handle the press. as far as building up left leaning media outlets as i've seen others suggest, the uk left has had years to do that and all of them have been small time operations and pretty thoroughly suppressed and painted as cranks. this is maybe the old leninist part of my politics talking but new leaders, media presentation, nice sounding policies, etc aren't magic tonics that will fix everything. you do need to approach this stuff with a certain amount of cynicism and pragmatism. and leaders, manifestos, etc will only ever be surface deep tweaks anyway if this movement building doesn't start, away from momentum and novara and all these other groups. show people you aren't just turning up on the doorstep once every couple of years asking for votes, that you're there for them all the time if they ever need your help.
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Dec 17, 2019 11:25
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MikeCrotch posted:One big big big problem with the whole "Labour party as a mass movement" thing is that the membership is already concentrated on cities. If the plan is to get the membership to help out in these neglected towns then they kind of already need to be there, or people need to go to towns from cities which sounds like a big ask? if the same people who have been harping on about how the election means they "are going to die" because of the tories evil policies also feel like catching a train out to wigan to help out with a foodbank or benefits advice group is a big ask then they don't want it bad enough. they need to toughen up or they need to step aside.
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Dec 17, 2019 11:27
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MikeCrotch posted:One big big big problem with the whole "Labour party as a mass movement" thing is that the membership is already concentrated on cities. If the plan is to get the membership to help out in these neglected towns then they kind of already need to be there, or people need to go to towns from cities which sounds like a big ask? I think a strategy should be to engage with the not politically engaged youth in those areas and seek to empower them.
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Dec 17, 2019 11:28
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jaete posted:Johnson will make it illegal for the government to ask for any further Brexit extension Ok ok, so lets say we cant extend by law anymore. And thanks to another law we cant leave without a deal. So if his deal fails...then what? I know his deal failing now is almost impossible due to their majority though.
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Dec 17, 2019 11:30
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if all else fails you can take your harmless pillow to the local tory HQ and ineffectually throw it at the wall
Tesseraction fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Dec 17, 2019 |
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Dec 17, 2019 11:32
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CyberPingu posted:Ok ok, so lets say we cant extend by law anymore. And thanks to another law we cant leave without a deal. The previous law can be repealed by a simple majority.
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Dec 17, 2019 11:32
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gh0stpinballa posted:i don't know why i'm getting involved in this but the left can't say that the media toxified and smeared corbyn which led to his historically bad approval ratings and then say this is evidence labour should disregard media coverage and elect someone similarly unequipped to handle the press. I get what you're saying and agree on the movement building. But anyone on the left will be demonised by the press. You can see it already starting and we haven't even picked a new leader yet. Anti-Semitism is now about the leadership not Corbyn, RLB too close to Corbyn. No left leader will be safe or spared from this. There is no such thing of capable and no combination of attributes that escape it or deal with it without compromising what we stand for. Its very fair to react in a gently caress the media sort of way, since they are very obviously saying gently caress you to us. Not saying its the right answer, I don't really know where I fall. But there is no right person and never will be with things in their current state.
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Dec 17, 2019 11:33
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