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Xun posted:Anyone know what happened to mother of learning? It hasn't updated in awhile He's writing the entire final string of chapters at once and plans to release them all in one big final update.
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Dec 17, 2019 20:19
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He still thinks the final update will be out in December but won't make any promises.
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Dec 18, 2019 00:11
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In He Who Fights With Monsters, I just realized that the aura power Knowledge offered to purge and replace with a better one was the aura that Jason got from the awakening stone Farrah gave him. Of course he isn't going to get rid of that power. It has incredible sentimental power. I do kind of wish he had taken the gift and then sold it, though.
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Dec 18, 2019 00:20
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Katalepsis status: still good, still goonmade
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Dec 18, 2019 01:21
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After reading Worm and Pact, I have now finished Twig. That one was particularly great, Wildbow definitely improves a lot as his works goes on. It sounds like that is not as much the case with Ward, but I'm still interested in reading it. Is there any indications that it will be over any time soon? I'd like to wait and binge it rather than follow along. Also, what about this Mother of Learning that's apparently about to finish? Worth reading? Just looking for something long and entertaining to fill in time, mostly. Also not trash would be nice.
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Dec 18, 2019 02:16
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Myriad Truths posted:After reading Worm and Pact, I have now finished Twig. That one was particularly great, Wildbow definitely improves a lot as his works goes on. It sounds like that is not as much the case with Ward, but I'm still interested in reading it. Is there any indications that it will be over any time soon? I'd like to wait and binge it rather than follow along. Mother of Learning is prolly my favorite serial. It has some mild pacing issues and severe language problems early on (the guy's a non-native English speaker and a lot of the early bits are pretty much one Croatian sentence blocked out into 4-5 short English ones), but unlike the vast majority of serials the dude planned the entire plot out in advance, and it really shows. I'd give it an A-/B+, my only real gripes being some writing problems and the fact that the last 15% feels noticeably weaker than the rest of the story. Also, it's worth being aware that it takes a little bit to get going- it isn't at all obvious what the story is until you're maybe 7-10 chapters deep.
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Dec 18, 2019 02:22
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ward appears to be pretty close to done, yeah
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Dec 18, 2019 02:42
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Katalepsis status: still good, still goonmade I think it's my favorite serial that I'm following right now (although I guess with pracguide on hiatus, TLS and MoL are the only other actively-updating stories that I'm up to date on...). Myriad Truths posted:After reading Worm and Pact, I have now finished Twig. That one was particularly great, Wildbow definitely improves a lot as his works goes on. It sounds like that is not as much the case with Ward, but I'm still interested in reading it. Is there any indications that it will be over any time soon? I'd like to wait and binge it rather than follow along. Ward is now longer than Worm, so it's both hopefully close to done and there's a hell of a lot of it to catch up on anyway.
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Dec 18, 2019 03:21
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Wittgen posted:In He Who Fights With Monsters, I just realized that the aura power Knowledge offered to purge and replace with a better one was the aura that Jason got from the awakening stone Farrah gave him. Of course he isn't going to get rid of that power. It has incredible sentimental power. It was a really good scene the bit about how 'every time you say something to convince me you drive me further away, and you just can't figure out why' was great lol. I guess it's on brand for Knowledge being incredibly stupid when it comes to things that aren't objective
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Dec 18, 2019 14:40
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Some people are speculating that she's intentionally pissing him off with this offer, maybe him being pissed at her benefits her or her plans in the future. That's kind of the annoying thing when you have characters in a story who either see the future or know too much about the present. It becomes very difficult for the reader to meaningfully evaluate their actions.
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Dec 18, 2019 15:00
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Omi no Kami posted:Mother of Learning is prolly my favorite serial. It has some mild pacing issues and severe language problems early on (the guy's a non-native English speaker and a lot of the early bits are pretty much one Croatian sentence blocked out into 4-5 short English ones), but unlike the vast majority of serials the dude planned the entire plot out in advance, and it really shows. I'd give it an A-/B+, my only real gripes being some writing problems and the fact that the last 15% feels noticeably weaker than the rest of the story. I agree with all of this. I didn’t realize the author wasn’t a native English speaker.
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Dec 18, 2019 16:56
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TWI 6.64 patreon: seems we got a real shitstorm brewing. i greatly enjoyed lyonette yelling at erin to stop being a stubborn dumbass
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Dec 18, 2019 17:35
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LLSix posted:I agree with all of this. I didn’t realize the author wasn’t a native English speaker. Yeah, I suspect he was already highly proficient/quasi-bilingual with English when he started, but especially in the earliest chapters there are occasionally weirdly choppy sentences with tons of commas, like quote:Shaking his head, he quickly loaded a couple of plates on his tray, idly noting the cooks were a lot less stingy with the meat and other expensive parts of the dish all of a sudden, and then started scanning the eating students for familiar faces. That sounds way, way less awkward in Serbo-Croatian, to the point that I suspect he was directly translating in his head. A lot of the bits where weirdly awkward or unnecessary bits of information pop up about Zorian's mood or affect also make me think that the guy was just trying to encode information that he was used to doing grammatically, like aspect and mood. Either way though, it's not nearly as bad as I'm making it sound; I almost dropped it in the first few chapters because of the awkward writing, but goons urged me to keep reading and within 10-15 chapters either he'd gotten much better, or I'd just stopped noticing.
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Dec 18, 2019 17:48
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A big flaming stink posted:TWI 6.64 patreon: seems we got a real shitstorm brewing. i greatly enjoyed lyonette yelling at erin to stop being a stubborn dumbass Really hoping this shifts to Palt as the temporary (or so he thinks) cook for the Inn & Ulinde as Halfseeker #4?
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Dec 18, 2019 19:49
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Uldor posted:Really hoping this shifts to Palt as the temporary (or so he thinks) cook for the Inn & Ulinde as Halfseeker #4? oh yeah palt is so loving cool. i cant believe erin is such a square that uncritically repeats War on Drugs propaganda. wait, no, actually i can completely believe erin is a square.
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Dec 18, 2019 20:25
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Cicero posted:Some people are speculating that she's intentionally pissing him off with this offer, maybe him being pissed at her benefits her or her plans in the future. That's kind of the annoying thing when you have characters in a story who either see the future or know too much about the present. It becomes very difficult for the reader to meaningfully evaluate their actions. Since the Church of Purity is somehow involved with the bad guys, there might be some kind of God drama that keeps Knowledge from overtly interfering with their plot. Steering Jason and his friends by pissing them off and making them distrustful of the gods in general might be her intention.
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Dec 18, 2019 20:47
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A big flaming stink posted:oh yeah palt is so loving cool. i cant believe erin is such a square that uncritically repeats War on Drugs propaganda. wait, no, actually i can completely believe erin is a square. I giggle like an idiot every time this comes up in the story. It's just so exactly perfect for her character.
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Dec 18, 2019 22:11
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Erin is absolutely the kind of person I would hate in real life. Actually I did know somebody that was basically her minus the competence and adding being strung out on molly constantly. Was pretty miserable to be around
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Dec 18, 2019 23:54
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Cicero posted:Yes. Or at least young, and then people will imagine them as attractive even if the story says they're not really, like in Cat's case, just look at the fan art. To be fair, Cat is described as being somewhat "handsome" with hard angles to her face, even if she's not "conventionally attractive." Myriad Truths posted:After reading Worm and Pact, I have now finished Twig. That one was particularly great, Wildbow definitely improves a lot as his works goes on. It sounds like that is not as much the case with Ward, but I'm still interested in reading it. Is there any indications that it will be over any time soon? I'd like to wait and binge it rather than follow along. Ward seems to be getting close-ish to ending. It's clearly in the "end game" (it's basically in the equivalent to the Scion fight in Worm, though the Scion fight took a handful of full arcs so that doesn't mean it'll be ending super soon). I feel like the negative response to Ward is not that deserved, at least in the context of web serials in general. I would say that Ward is definitely better than Worm. Ward's main problem is that it sort of meanders to its plot destination, but I think it's characters are far more compelling than the characters in Worm and about as good as the ones in Twig. Even if the path the plot has taken has been kind of weird (the destination is fine, but more the way it reached it), the characters are all very distinct and interesting to read about. Regarding recent events, I'm sad about Moose/Prancer and Fume Hood. Also lol'd at Kenzie stealing a dog from Bitch. My one gripe about the current "end game" situation is that previously Worm/Ward have been good about having conflicts/antagonists where normal humans and normal human weapons wouldn't be that useful, as an excuse to keep things focused on our powered protagonists. But this current situation would be resolved far more easily with normal cannons and bombs than with a few dozen parahumans. These titans are not exceptionally durable, and a single person with a mounted machine gun could do more damage than like 95% of these capes. While it's nice that they came to the conclusion of "why don't we just send normal humans into the shard-world since people lose powers there anyways," I'm left scratching my head over why regular military equipment isn't being used against these Titans. The thing that makes it especially goofy is that one cape appeared to have the power of "has a bunch of normal human artillery" and was probably the most effectively of the capes we've seen. I understand that there likely isn't any sort of an organized military, but artillery (or even relatively simple WW2-ish planes and bombs) isn't such a complicated things to build that they shouldn't have some by this point.
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Dec 19, 2019 00:30
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Larry Parrish posted:Erin is absolutely the kind of person I would hate in real life. Actually I did know somebody that was basically her minus the competence and adding being strung out on molly constantly. Was pretty miserable to be around eh she seems like a soft liberal that would have been 100% radicalized after trump got elected
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Dec 19, 2019 00:37
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She's an incredibly stubborn and obnoxious outgoing A-type personality that would be utterly loathsome to be around for more than five minutes but is hilarious to read about.
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Dec 19, 2019 00:40
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I've seen fan art where people draw Cat as a blond haired blue eyed type and it just makes me sad. Are you even reading the story?! 
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Dec 19, 2019 02:54
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Ytlaya posted:My one gripe about the current "end game" situation is that (or even relatively simple WW2-ish planes and bombs) isn't such a complicated things to build that they shouldn't have some by this point. Haven't read Ward, but if it helps your suspension of disbelief, WW2 era planes are wildly complicated to build. As an example, the B-29 (bomber airplane) program ultimately cost $3 billion dollars, versus $2 billion for the Manhattan Project that developed the nuclear bomb. There's a whole tech-base that has to be built up to make military equipment. If you don't have the right material and industrial know how, it can be impossible to make adequately good equipment. Even if you look at older weapons, one of the suggested causes of the fall of the Western Roman Empire was that they entered a death spiral where their industrial output got progressively worse to the point they could no longer equip their armies with the same quality weapons and armor they'd managed only a few decades before. They still knew how to, in theory, but the lacked both enough experienced experts and money. Rome nerds, I know I'm wildly simplifying.
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Dec 19, 2019 06:07
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Re: Ward technology It's a bit tough to say what's within the realm of possibility since Wildbow is wildly inconsistent about the state of the post-apocalypse (Dragon can fabricate a 12-ton gatling laser for Victoria in a few hours, but can't make fishing boats to solve the food shortage), but "<X> is a bad plan with obvious, better alternatives" has been a pretty consistent criticism of mine throughout the story. When I can actually follow what's happening and why, it feels like the plot of the moment inevitably comes down to "What's the angstiest possible direction to take the story in." I'm not a big parahumans guy to begin with, but Ward genuinely feels to me like WB threw away any and all improvements he made to his writing during Pact and Twig, and reverted to old habits. It's enough of a regression that at times I wonder if stuff like Damsel's flashback isn't explicit cut & paste jobs from unused writing he did during the pre-Worm era. It's a silly and dumb theory that probably isn't true, but it'd explain a lot. Omi no Kami fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Dec 19, 2019 12:57
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part of the reason they dont fab up a bunch of fishing boats is that the capes are all completely loving insane and driven to fight. also the characters work in ward is miles better than anything in worm or pact idk where the idea that its regression comes from
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Dec 19, 2019 17:54
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Omi no Kami posted:Re: Ward technology It's a bit tough to say what's within the realm of possibility since Wildbow is wildly inconsistent about the state of the post-apocalypse (Dragon can fabricate a 12-ton gatling laser for Victoria in a few hours, but can't make fishing boats to solve the food shortage), but "<X> is a bad plan with obvious, better alternatives" has been a pretty consistent criticism of mine throughout the story. When I can actually follow what's happening and why, it feels like the plot of the moment inevitably comes down to "What's the angstiest possible direction to take the story in." I don't really see how it's "angstier" than Twig. Twig actually "emotionally exhausted" me more than Ward. You're somewhat correct about the issues with the setting (though it's been implied that parahumans using their power to directly better society in non-conflict-related ways always backfires in some fashion), though I'm hard pressed to think of any popular web serials other than PracGuide (which is far better than all other popular web serials IMO) that are better in this regard. edit: One question about recent events that I forgot to ask about in my previous post - Who the gently caress is Uncle Mike? I get that he's the brother of Victoria's mom and her aunt (so her uncle) but it felt like that meeting was supposed to have gravity and I don't remember this guy ever being mentioned before.
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Dec 19, 2019 18:00
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This might totally come down to YMMV since I enjoyed Twig and didn't really enjoy Worm or Ward, but at least on the angst side I felt it was an issue in both stories (I straight-up skipped large chunks of Twig because I didn't care for how incomprehensible the writing became when Sylvester had an episode of crazy time). What differentiates them is that in Twig there was at least a minima of pacing, while Ward has pretty much been a ceaselessly depressing indulgence of misery to a degree that I don't think is very fun to read. It's probably down to personal preference, since I know a lot of folks enjoy the exact things I dislike, but at least for me I don't think it's very interesting to read about depressed people being sad for 1.whatever million words. (Also my take on Twig is probably very odd, because I enjoyed the more tightly-paced monster of the week stuff in the first half that everyone seemed to dislike, but rapidly lost interest after Sylvester left the academy and spent like 750,000 words being a crazy anarchist dude.) Likewise for the story, the best parts of Ward are great, but there is so much bloat relative to the core story that I struggle to even call it coherent. Every serial has stuff it could edit out in retrospect, but honestly I think you could lose 80-90% of Ward's total chapters and not actually touch the core story. It seems to do exactly what its fans want (cool powers, body horror, long cape fights, lots of suffering), which is fine, but I just feel that in the process of filling out that checklist it fails at nearly everything else. Lastly, this is nitpicking minutae, but WB's fundamental lack of understanding on a variety of topics makes a lot of Ward feel extremely ridiculous to me. Nearly every major problem that Ward's society faces (food security, rule of law, labor disputes, trade, diplomacy) are only problems because WB is the guy in charge, and his proposed solutions are ridiculously ineffective. What makes it more frustrating to me is, like, who cares? All of that stuff is background fluff, and it would've been trivial to detour the worldbuilding around it and focus on the story he wanted to tell. Instead those issues repeatedly take center stage, and lead to really weird plot beats that make it incredibly hard for me to take any of it seriously. Case in point, the bit where Breakthrough, a C-tier mercenary group, are spontaneously turned into diplomats, sent to negotiate with a planet full of xenophobic religious supremacists whose entire society is built around hating capes, then told that they have no choice but to go to the torture prison run by Victoria's rapist, because if they don't millions of people will starve. Like, I"m trying not to be excessively negative because I know there are people who really enjoy Ward, but that's what you write for your middle school D&D campaign, not a para-professional story that you're writing with years of experience under your belt.
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Dec 19, 2019 18:20
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you liked twig but you didn't like more than half of twig ok buddy
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Dec 19, 2019 18:33
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I've said it before but Wildbow being a complete dumbass without a coherent understanding of the world is a big reason why Ward sucks. It doesn't come up quite as much in the first one but it was a bit problem there too. My man needs a political analysis. Every time the topic veers away from a big superhero fight the story takes a turn for the insane. I cant figure out if Wildbow is just a naive liberal or what.
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Dec 19, 2019 19:27
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Kaja Rainbow posted:Awesome effortpost I wanted to belatedly thank you for putting this up, not a site that I was familiar with but well worth checking out. A lot of the stories do trend toward a bite of trite 'And then the heroine told the Nazis they suck, and everyone clapped'. But you know what? gently caress Nazis. I would much rather read stories about nice people finding love and being happy whilst Nazis are dunked on than the opposite.
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Dec 19, 2019 22:08
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Omi no Kami posted:Yeah, the way Bai Meizhen's character was handled was generally frustrating- the early scenes with her were some of the best scenes, then it felt like she really abruptly became a distant side character. Somehow missed this exchange from a few pages back, but I strongly disagree with this and actually consider that whole situation an example of why FoD/ToD is better than most other web serials (and probably the best example I'm aware of of the "following the daily life of a person in a fantasy world as they fight and stuff" genre - this doesn't include PracGuide, which is more of a conventional narrative and good in different ways). The author is extremely good at having characters act in ways that make sense given the way they're written (with the only possible exception to this being aspects of Ling Qi's character, who is naturally going to be a bit erratic due to being puppeted by a bunch of forums posters, though the author still does a good job of wrangling things into a fairly consistent characterization). In Meizhen's case, it makes sense for her to be awkward around Ling Qi for long after that situation. Ling Qi kept trying to one-sidedly decide that the situation was resolved and sort of patted herself on the back for "addressing it," but it makes sense that Meizhen is going to continue to feel weird living with the person she has a crush on like that, and things pretty much stay at least little awkward until the end of FoD. In ToD Meizhen seems to have made a lot of progress towards moving on (likely helped by not living in the same house with Ling Qi), but she is also making social connections beyond Ling Qi, so it makes sense that she's going to be less involved than she was while living with her prior to making things awkward (but they still obviously consider each other best friends). Not sure what you mean with cutting away the social maneuvering; Ling Qi is now dealing with some new characters in a different context. Rather than trying to find her place like in FoD, she now has a political position and the politics she has to navigate are related to that. Many of the issues she faced in FoD are issues it doesn't make sense for her to face now (her position is now high enough, both in terms of cultivation and politically through her connection to Cai, that a repeat of something like the Huang Da situation is highly unlikely to happen). Omi no Kami posted:This might totally come down to YMMV since I enjoyed Twig and didn't really enjoy Worm or Ward, but at least on the angst side I felt it was an issue in both stories (I straight-up skipped large chunks of Twig because I didn't care for how incomprehensible the writing became when Sylvester had an episode of crazy time). What differentiates them is that in Twig there was at least a minima of pacing, while Ward has pretty much been a ceaselessly depressing indulgence of misery to a degree that I don't think is very fun to read. It's probably down to personal preference, since I know a lot of folks enjoy the exact things I dislike, but at least for me I don't think it's very interesting to read about depressed people being sad for 1.whatever million words. (Also my take on Twig is probably very odd, because I enjoyed the more tightly-paced monster of the week stuff in the first half that everyone seemed to dislike, but rapidly lost interest after Sylvester left the academy and spent like 750,000 words being a crazy anarchist dude.) Okay this makes more sense, since you seem to specifically be talking about the first 1/3 to 1/2 of Twig (which had a better mix in terms of tone, with more light moments and humor mixed in, at least from what I recall). I actually had trouble making myself read the latter half because it got so depressing, while I haven't had that problem with Ward (but I can understand both Ward and latter-Twig being too depressing for someone). I don't know if I'd describe either as angsty in a bad way, though. In both cases the characters are dealing with bad things that it makes sense to be upset about. But I can understand not wanting to read a story like that.
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Dec 20, 2019 00:21
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Ytlaya posted:Somehow missed this exchange from a few pages back, but I strongly disagree with this and actually consider that whole situation an example of why FoD/ToD is better than most other web serials (and probably the best example I'm aware of of the "following the daily life of a person in a fantasy world as they fight and stuff" genre - this doesn't include PracGuide, which is more of a conventional narrative and good in different ways). The author is extremely good at having characters act in ways that make sense given the way they're written (with the only possible exception to this being aspects of Ling Qi's character, who is naturally going to be a bit erratic due to being puppeted by a bunch of forums posters, though the author still does a good job of wrangling things into a fairly consistent characterization). I agree with everything you've said, but I do still feel heavily weighted towards preferring FoD between the two. It may just be personal taste, because I tend to prioritize weird stuff (see also: I really dug the MOTW stuff in Twig but checked out pretty hard in the back half). I recently went through the RRL rewrite of FoD, and I found that my interest started to wane around the point that Ling Qi started doing spy stuff for Cai Renxiang, so it's possible that it's that particular plotline I have issues with. I can't think of any specific complaints against it, but in retrospect nearly every section that I had to force myself to plow through involved either CR's stuff, or some of the later large-scale/extended combat events. Ytlaya posted:Okay this makes more sense, since you seem to specifically be talking about the first 1/3 to 1/2 of Twig (which had a better mix in terms of tone, with more light moments and humor mixed in, at least from what I recall). I actually had trouble making myself read the latter half because it got so depressing, while I haven't had that problem with Ward (but I can understand both Ward and latter-Twig being too depressing for someone). Yeah, I have this weird thing with WB stories where my mental image of how most of his stuff is structured and paced ends up being wildly inaccurate. Like with Twig (spoilering because why the heck not, more people should read it) in my head the majority of the story is about Sylvester and the other lambs doing dumb MOTW week stuff, and his break from the academy only occupies the final 25% of the story. In actuality it's much closer to 50/50 or even 40/60, and the vast majority of the story's length is dedicated to the anarchy/rebels/pointless ultraviolence/crazy time stuff. Which is kind of a weird narrative decision in retrospect, since the murder orphans hanging out together and bouncing dialogue off each other felt like the strongest part of the story by far. As far as the angst goes, I think the critical distinction for me is between characters and tones. It is 150% alright for a character to be depressed- hell, most renditions of Batman are Dark Sadman and his ceaseless unhappiness and grimderp stuff is a core part of the character. The gripe I often have with WB serials is that he struggles to separate character from tone- part of that is a side effect of writing entirely in first-person POV, but it feels like a big part is down to story structure and poor planning. It doesn't matter what tone or emotion we're talking about, you have to vary things up over time- that's why most action movies have less than 45 minutes of actual action split up within 90-120 minutes, because flat-heat up-climax-cool down is massively more engaging than a sustained peak. With stuff like Ward it's entirely reasonable for Victoria to feel like crap all the time- her life sucks pretty hard, and the story's setting is a ceaselessly grimderp post-apocalyptic hellscape. But when the tone of the story follows her moods and we're expected to read however million words of everything being sad and crappy, except oh wait it just got worse, I find that it very quickly goes from engaging, to darkness induced audience apathy, to (at least for me) utter ridiculousness.
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Dec 20, 2019 00:50
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Katalepsis status: still good, still goonmade This. This is a good post, I just read everything to date of Katalepsis in one sitting because of this recommendation. It is a really good read
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Dec 20, 2019 14:08
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I’ve said before but it bears repeating, wildbow is a misery writer. He writes what he knows and that is apparently soul crushing depression and power fantasy that ends in even darker soul eating depression.
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Dec 20, 2019 15:17
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Anias posted:I’ve said before but it bears repeating, wildbow is a misery writer. He writes what he knows and that is apparently soul crushing depression and power fantasy that ends in even darker soul eating depression. Yeah, other than his writing style, which I hated, the fact that everything was so repetitive and miserable is probably what pushed me away.
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Dec 20, 2019 17:37
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There was a point in Wildow's writing where I realized you always knew what would be next. "What is the worst thing that could happen that wouldn't actually end the book?"
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Dec 20, 2019 20:47
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It's kinda why I didn't read Worm in its entirety or even start twig or Ward. I read Pact, and that was enough for me. I actually love misery and angst in my characters.. as long as it's a struggle that they then finally come out on the end and grab their happy ending even if it was absolutely grueling to get there and even if you lost a few beloved characters on the way. But Wildbow gives too little catharsis and has too few and too temporary victories. I just started binge-reading the Wandering Inn the last week or so and am on early book 6, and i feel like she's a little bit better at handling the misery-happiness balance. She likes to really torture her characters sometimes, but it ends up ending up paying off in a way that makes it feel worth it. Poor hobgoblins, though.
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Dec 20, 2019 20:56
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Jade Mage posted:This. This is a good post, I just read everything to date of Katalepsis in one sitting because of this recommendation. It is a really good read I know I'm a bit broken-record whenever somebody says something like this, but thank you, I'm always delighted when somebody reads and enjoys the story.
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Dec 20, 2019 22:31
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Hungry posted:I know I'm a bit broken-record whenever somebody says something like this, but thank you, I'm always delighted when somebody reads and enjoys the story. It is really fun read, I signal boosted it on rpg.net as well, only to have somebody else follow up with a much more evocative and detailed endorsement.
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Dec 20, 2019 22:35
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Wolpertinger posted:I just started binge-reading the Wandering Inn the last week or so and am on early book 6, and i feel like she's a little bit better at handling the misery-happiness balance. She likes to really torture her characters sometimes, but it ends up ending up paying off in a way that makes it feel worth it. Poor hobgoblins, though. still not over brunkr though 
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Dec 20, 2019 22:37
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