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Nessus posted:Could this person have been a collector? Does stuff like that ever get proposed as an explanation for weird one-offs like that? Tesla Cola already mentioned it, but the diversity is typical for the region. When I was comparing it to assemblages from surface surveys and excavation in the area to get a rough date for the site (the latest occupation at least) it didn't really stand out from any other site, regardless of their temporal horizon. It seems once sedentary ceramic using Puebloan populations are in the area, they maintain a diverse array of social connections and diverse local technologies that result in a diversity of ceramics that is fairly unique in the entire region, outside the largest, longest lasting settlements. But in the Puerco even the tiny sites have Pueblo Grande and Chaco Canyon-like diversity. The area is sort of a cultural cross roads, sitting right between numerous different technological and artistic traditions and probably astride trade routes from the areas to the west and the Chaco Regional System to the east. Survey and excavation aren't great, but it seems population gets fairly high around CE 1050-1100, with farmsteads like the one I found hiking all over the place, sometimes just a km or so apart, usually clustered around a community center of some sort, either a Great House or a "Good House" or Great Kiva. It changes a bit from CE 1100-1400 or so, people drop farmsteads for aggregated villages and population may go down a bit, but the social connections are still pretty diverse. Not much evidence for warfare at any site, though there seems to be unrest to the north and east, a few days walk away.
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Dec 19, 2019 02:08
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underage at the vape shop posted:They did, they hung stuff up in their houses and it became a permanent part of the decor, even if you sold the property Even in modern times, a lot of things hung on the wall can become fixtures that stay with the house through sale.
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Dec 19, 2019 02:19
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When was homosexuality illegalized in the Eastern Roman Empire?
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Dec 19, 2019 16:38
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Baron Porkface posted:When was homosexuality illegalized in the Eastern Roman Empire? To quote the Paradox Grand Strategy thread title: "Their position worsened after Christianity arrived."
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Dec 19, 2019 18:53
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My understanding is homosexuality being literally illegal is a modern phenomenon, but I can't say this is an area of history I know well.
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Dec 19, 2019 22:55
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Theodosian Code 9.7.3 says that if a man takes it up the rear end he should be subject to “exquisitis poenis”. That’s mid 4th century. i don’t think it forbids actively buggering others yet though. But even if it did we should be cautious about considering it to make homosexuality illegal since “homosexuality” is not a concept that would have been entirely familiar to Romans or Christians of late antiquity, etc etc skasion fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Dec 19, 2019 23:03
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what's this about being subject to an exquisite penis
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Dec 19, 2019 23:12
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skasion posted:Theodosian Code 9.7.3 says that if a man takes it up the rear end he should be subject to “exquisitis poenis”. That’s mid 4th century. i don’t think it forbids actively buggering others yet though. Right, but there's a distinction between buttsex laws, sodomy, and homosexuality. I don't think being gay was illegal anywhere until much more recently. Also sodomy was a near-impossible charge to prove and rarely applied. This is all half remembered medieval history stuff though, so full caveats.
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Dec 19, 2019 23:24
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hello, yes, I would like one order of "exquisite penis" please, thank you
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Dec 19, 2019 23:30
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Grand Fromage posted:My understanding is homosexuality being literally illegal is a modern phenomenon, but I can't say this is an area of history I know well. By Justinian's Corpus Iuris Civilis you have male-male sex being made illegal without regard to active or passive partners, on pain of the "just wrath of God" (and the state), so by the 6th century it seems close enough. Grand Fromage posted:Right, but there's a distinction between buttsex laws, sodomy, and homosexuality. I don't think being gay was illegal anywhere until much more recently. I mean, even in the United States pre-Lawrence v. Texas, "the state of being sexually attracted to a same sex individual" was not criminalized, only "certain sexual acts between same-sex individuals." So that seems like a pointless distinction here, unless you're saying it was perfectly ok to be a homosexual in the United States in like 1970. ulmont fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Dec 19, 2019 23:41
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Mr. Lobe posted:what's this about being subject to an exquisite penis Exquisitis Poenis, clearly the boyfriend of Biggus Dickus
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Dec 19, 2019 23:42
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ulmont posted:By Justinian's Corpus Iuris Civilis you have male-male sex being made illegal without regard to active or passive partners, on pain of the "just wrath of God" (and the state), so by the 6th century it seems close enough. Okay. As I said, not an area I know well. Were there legal distinctions between male-male and female-female?
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Dec 19, 2019 23:57
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Are there any Roman laws about female homosexual behavior at all? I don’t think that was considered very significant stuff in antiquity. The New Testament barely mentions it at all, early Christian moralists tend to only touch on it in the context of the general sexual immorality of women.
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Dec 20, 2019 00:33
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skasion posted:Are there any Roman laws about female homosexual behavior at all? I don’t think that was considered very significant stuff in antiquity. The New Testament barely mentions it at all, early Christian moralists tend to only touch on it in the context of the general sexual immorality of women. I think a lot of ancient people didn't even conceive of it as sex if there wasn't at least one penis involved.
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Dec 20, 2019 01:28
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Lesbians in Joseon Korea were subject to punishment, whereas to my knowledge gay men weren't. 100 strikes with a cudgel, which was the third most severe form of punishment they had, after execution and exile. One crown princess' lover was even executed for it, although that might have been more due to adultery.
Koramei fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Dec 20, 2019 |
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Dec 20, 2019 01:41
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Somewhere way back in this thread I posted a piece I found about a late medieval or early modern lesbian in France (Germany?) who we only know about because she was eventually embroiled in court proceedings caused by her breaking into a house through a window at night to rape someone. Gonna see if I can find it again. But anyway the impression I get with a lot of this stuff is that it only became a problem when there was some other kind of criminal allegation involved
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Dec 20, 2019 01:46
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Yeah, in Joseon too, despite the outwardly severe punishment I think it was mostly permissible as long as the authorities weren't being spiteful. It gets mentioned a couple of times in court histories that lesbian sexual relations were practically ubiquitous among court women, but since they were forbidden from marriage and the only men allowed in the inner palace were the royal family and eunuchs, they were given some leeway in other matters (so their spirits wouldn't come back to torment the royal family because of how much they'd had to suffer in life, which was a thing the court was genuinely concerned about).The Lone Badger posted:I think a lot of ancient people didn't even conceive of it as sex if there wasn't at least one penis involved. In Joseon, lesbian sex was "a sharing of energy."
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Dec 20, 2019 01:53
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Oh riight, I remember some of that from "why did I even take this" classes in college. Chinese sex mysticism was all about managing your sexual energy in a healthy way. According to their yin-yang concept you would swap energy (which of course was bad for the man, because you didn't want to lose your male energy) but for two women there would be no net change.
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Dec 20, 2019 02:07
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The essay I quoted this from is a dead link now but quote:Moving into the 15th century, we start finding records of legal actions against women for lesbian practices and other associated social crimes. Despite the clear social opprobrium, the amount of data of this type is far less than that for corresponding male transgressions. Those who have combed the legal records have found not more than a dozen examples from the 15th century -- none earlier: 7 women in Bruges in the 1480s, 2 women charged in Rottweil in 1444, and two cases that are interesting in their detail. [Bennett 2000, Boone 1996, Puff 1997] Katherina was subsequently judicially drowned (in the Rhine).
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Dec 20, 2019 02:15
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I often remember that essay and lol at it to myself (sorry Katherina), especially the ex-lesbian lovers suing each other part. I suspect the relative paucity of pre-modern commentary on lesbianism has to do mostly with it not involving men, so the male authors which dominate the historical record and wrote most of the laws just weren't interested. However I also suspect one reason male-male relationships appear much more often in historical judicial records and commentary is the disproportionate male usage of prostitution. Participating in the sex industry makes these relationships much more public and visible and that has tended to invite moral and legal backlash.
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Dec 20, 2019 04:20
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Arglebargle III posted:Oh riight, I remember some of that from "why did I even take this" classes in college. Chinese sex mysticism was all about managing your sexual energy in a healthy way. According to their yin-yang concept you would swap energy (which of course was bad for the man, because you didn't want to lose your male energy) but for two women there would be no net change. All I remember about that was that they would try to pinch off the urethra to do a retrograde ejaculation. Which sounds unhealthy.
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Dec 20, 2019 04:25
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guys, that's probably not a woman, and considering the historical precedent he probably would have been able to live as he chose if he hadn't been a rapist
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Dec 20, 2019 14:07
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Koramei posted:In Joseon, lesbian sex was "a sharing of energy." "We are merely exchanging energy. If you can think of a simpler way I'd like to hear it." Arglebargle III posted:Oh riight, I remember some of that from "why did I even take this" classes in college. Chinese sex mysticism was all about managing your sexual energy in a healthy way. According to their yin-yang concept you would swap energy (which of course was bad for the man, because you didn't want to lose your male energy) but for two women there would be no net change. I kind of got the impression from reading extensively about China too that as long as the person did their filial duties and didn't conduct themselves in a shameful way in relation to their homosexual dalliances, it was acceptable. I would imagine there would be a similar mindset with Korea as well but I could be wrong. There aren't a lot of serious repercussions as long as Confucian principles are observed or paid lip service to. Japan was alternatively kind of the wildcard where you have things like shudo, where there was a mentor/mentee homosexual relationship similar to Greek paiderastia, but it couldn't be continued beyond or outside of that. Adult males had to be dominant partner and the younger male the submissive partner and it was seen as a symbol of devotion, not love in the traditional sense. There's also debate about how prevalent this practice was too but it seems like it was common.
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Dec 20, 2019 15:22
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https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1207682070656491526 can anyone account for octavian's whereabouts 
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Dec 20, 2019 15:31
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Agrippa was at home with me last night. Edit: proof  Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Dec 20, 2019 |
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Dec 20, 2019 15:37
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HEY GUNS posted:guys, that's probably not a woman, and considering the historical precedent he probably would have been able to live as he chose if he hadn't been a rapist This is going to be a real productive conversation.
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Dec 20, 2019 16:37
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:"We are merely exchanging energy. If you can think of a simpler way I'd like to hear it." in 17th century southern China there was a very similar system practiced to what you described in Japan. The mentor/mentee relationship could be quite formal, I think I remember there was even a little ceremony that the family was invited to. However while these relationships almost always started between a wealthy older man and a teen boy it was not unheard of for them to continue many years into the young man's adulthood. Usually it would stop when he married and started his own household but there wasn't an expectation of a hard fixed end. A lot of the pirate warlords of the era started off as mentees in this system. I wouldn't be surprised if this custom was connected to Japan, since the region had close trade relations with the Japanese and a fair few of the pirates were actually mixed Japanese/Chinese/Ryukyu. There's even a cute little gay rabbit god of homosexual relationships!  HEY GUNS posted:guys, that's probably not a woman, and considering the historical precedent he probably would have been able to live as he chose if he hadn't been a rapist  when I was writing that post I was really careful not to use the term "homosexual" because I didn't want to imply having gay sex made men gay, but then I completely forgot to be equally cognizant about how I was talking about relations between female sexed individuals. In my defense it is a pain to keep the language straight without offending anyone and also talk about identity in periods where "gay" isn't even a meaningful concept anyone would recognize. And I don't even know how to begin to deal with subjects like the Albanian sworn virgins, they're obviously very different from modern trans-men but it's hard to say howI made the mistake of trying to talk about gay Chinese pirates in another thread and instantly offended a bunch of people in every way possible "No I'm not trying to say all historical chinese homosexuals were pedophiles! uh, I mean, basically all Chinese men were pedophiles in this era, even the straight ones. . . N-no I don't mean to insult China! GUYS IT'S NOT THAT I DON'T CARE ABOUT LESBIANS IT'S THAT NONE OF THE PRIMARY SOURCES DID SO I HAVEN'T READ ANYTHING ABOUT THEM!" Anyway clearly I'm very bad at not offending people and that's why I don't talk about queer history outside Ask Tell anymore
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Dec 20, 2019 17:06
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To be honest westerners struggle to understand their own cultural approaches to queer identities, much less those of other cultures many centuries removed. Those sorts of conversations deserve a level of contextual nuance that the internet is not only poorly suited for, but rejects wholesale.
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Dec 20, 2019 19:27
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Squalid posted:
and i consider the Albanian guys to be "like me," but i don't know if they'd return the idea because i haven't asked any of them. (definitely the ones who chose that life themselves, probably less the ones who had it chosen for them because their family had no boys who were born male) HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Dec 20, 2019 |
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Dec 20, 2019 20:26
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I'm like a thousand percent sure that discussing how a particular late medieval individual fits into modern gender schemes so bleeding edge that even the people they describe don't agree on them is a fruitless discussion capable only of obfuscating its object.
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Dec 20, 2019 21:44
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Arglebargle III posted:I'm like a thousand percent sure that discussing how a particular late medieval individual fits into modern gender schemes so bleeding edge that even the people they describe don't agree on them is a fruitless discussion capable only of obfuscating its object.
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Dec 20, 2019 22:01
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:I kind of got the impression from reading extensively about China too that as long as the person did their filial duties and didn't conduct themselves in a shameful way in relation to their homosexual dalliances, it was acceptable. This is also my understanding. As long as you produced a son, what you did in your free time was your own business.
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Dec 20, 2019 22:03
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The best way to study history is to first tie your whole identity to a subject and then make conclusions.
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Dec 20, 2019 22:04
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Now you are just being a dick. Like poo poo, god forbid non-white people or other minorities get into archaeology or history and become passionate about it because they want to find out what their ancestors or people like them accomplished in a world where they and their history are constantly erased. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Dec 20, 2019 |
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Dec 20, 2019 22:13
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Arglebargle III posted:The best way to study history is to first tie your whole identity to a subject and then make conclusions. I'm not saying people in late medieval/early modern Europe lived lives we can map onto 21st century woke twitter culture, because they didn't. But their cultures were rich and strange. I know very well we can't say "trans" until about the middle of the 20th century (earlier for germans), that's why I'm not using the word for these people and why I don't use the concepts of sexual or gender "identity" for myself. So what's your point? edit: the entire reason Squalid and i were talking like robots is we know we can't use the words from our culture to describe different ones HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Dec 20, 2019 |
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Dec 20, 2019 22:26
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Arglebargle III posted:I'm like a thousand percent sure that discussing how a particular late medieval individual fits into modern gender schemes so bleeding edge that even the people they describe don't agree on them is a fruitless discussion capable only of obfuscating its object. I don't agree with this sentiment, but I feel that the topic has run its course and anybody who had anything to contribute has already done so. Speaking of butts, 8" objects, and things running their course and then turning into poo poo, I thought this was pretty cool: https://www.thevintagenews.com/2019/10/02/lloyds-bank-coprolite/
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Dec 20, 2019 22:35
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HEY GUNS posted:So what's your point? I said this is unproductive. You have clearly stated its personal for you. Things can only go downhill. Why have this conversation?
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Dec 20, 2019 22:55
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Arglebargle III posted:I said this is unproductive. You have clearly stated its personal for you. Things can only go downhill. Why have this conversation? Squalid posted:
So (purely for example) you could say "gay marriage rules but what about gay men who don't want a 1:1 copy of traditional heterosexual monogamy?" and that is easy to parse, especially on the internet, as "you're saying all gay men are sluts" or what-have-you Nessus fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Dec 20, 2019 |
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Dec 20, 2019 23:03
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Nessus posted:Did the Senate appoint you Imperator or did you just see something encouraging in your liver and onions? the senate can't appoint you imperator, you must be hailed imperator by your troops on the field!
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Dec 20, 2019 23:08
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Is there any ancient history world map project? I spend way too much time on google maps looking at ancient city sites and trying to imagine what they may have looked like on the local geography. I think it would be neat if someone just made very basic outlines of say ancient Athens or Carthage and comparing that to the surrounding area.
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Dec 21, 2019 01:38
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