Middle East Thread: Clarissa Explains the Fall

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Haramstufe Rot: Jun 24, 2016

What is the actual maritime zone that Turkey could claim under normal circumstances?

# ? Dec 16, 2019 11:04

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# ? May 25, 2024 03:28

Dante80: Mar 23, 2015

caps on caps on caps posted:

What is the actual maritime zone that Turkey could claim under normal circumstances?

Assuming that:

1. The Greek inhabited Islands get an EEZ up to 200nm as per UNCLOS
2. The median line is used as a rule where the distance between two countries territories is less than 400nm.

The end result would look somewhat like this:

As you can see from the map above, this is the main reason that Turkey has not signed UNCLOS and is essentially claiming that the Greek Islands do not exist.

Dante80 fucked around with this message at 12:09 on Dec 16, 2019

# ? Dec 16, 2019 11:56

Haramstufe Rot: Jun 24, 2016

Dante80 posted:

Assuming that:

1. The Greek inhabited Islands get an EEZ up to 200nm as per UNCLOS
2. The median line is used as a rule where the distance between two countries territories is less than 400nm.

The end result would look somewhat like this:

As you can see from the map above, this is the main reason that Turkey has not signed UNCLOS and is essentially claiming that the Greek Islands do not exist.

Yeah that won't work ever. Some sort of compromise must be found such that deposits can be shared at least between Greece and Turkey. You know, for peace and all that.

# ? Dec 16, 2019 11:59

Dante80: Mar 23, 2015

caps on caps on caps posted:

Yeah that won't work ever. Some sort of compromise must be found such that deposits can be shared at least between Greece and Turkey. You know, for peace and all that.

I agree (I'm Greek btw). As UNCLOS arbitration has shown in multiple cases, the result tends to be a political compromise instead of a strict legal interpretation of the articles. For example, see the red spike at the bottom right. That is Kastellorizo. It is assumed that in an arbitration case that island is not going to get full EEZ rights, due to the prevalence of the vast Turkish coast beside it.

Turkey doesn't even want to go there though, since it would be impossible (and absurd) to remove completely the Aegean islands from the equation.

Same goes for territorial waters. Right now, Greece is claiming 6nm of territorial waters. As per UNCLOS, Greece wants to move to 12nm like all countries around the world (and use the median line with Turkey in places where the distance is less than 24nm). Turkey has a formal casus belli installed since 1995 for that.

Dante80 fucked around with this message at 12:11 on Dec 16, 2019

# ? Dec 16, 2019 12:07

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Turkey vs every other Mediterranean NATO member + Israel is pretty :laffo:

# ? Dec 16, 2019 12:32

Grape: Nov 16, 2017; Happily shilling for China!

caps on caps on caps posted:

Yeah that won't work ever. Some sort of compromise must be found such that deposits can be shared at least between Greece and Turkey. You know, for peace and all that.

They're mostly doing this loving around with Cyprus though rather than Greece.

# ? Dec 17, 2019 00:08

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Cyprus can't shoot back as hard.

# ? Dec 17, 2019 11:09

Pyromancer: Apr 29, 2011; This man must look upon the fire, smell of it, warm his hands by it, stare into its heart

Dante80 posted:

Same goes for territorial waters. Right now, Greece is claiming 6nm of territorial waters. As per UNCLOS, Greece wants to move to 12nm like all countries around the world (and use the median line with Turkey in places where the distance is less than 24nm). Turkey has a formal casus belli installed since 1995 for that.

Greece should ask for Aegean territorial waters to be mapped under archipelago rules, then standard 12 miles won't look as bad to Turkey by comparison.

Pyromancer fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Dec 17, 2019

# ? Dec 17, 2019 13:39

Grape: Nov 16, 2017; Happily shilling for China!

suck my woke dick posted:

Cyprus can't shoot back as hard.

Well I mean it's important to point out because it's not some "hmm these two countries have some murky issues with territorial agreements and ought to sit down and work on it" like it might be with Greece and Turkey.

Cyprus is not a NATO member, Turkey militarily occupies the north of the island, and Cyprus is not recognized as a legitimate country by Turkey.
It's a ridiculously lopsided thing that I hesitate to call a relationship.
Scroll up again to that map showing Turkey's claimed maritime borders. Like you could be sitting in one of the cities in SOUTHERN Cyprus and gaze out into the sea at Turkey's claims? It's completely aggressive rear end in a top hat poo poo.

I feel like people are seeing the Turkish claims brushing up against like Rhodes and Crete and the like and going "ah well ok, those are kind of backwater or outer areas of Greece so I can see why Turkey thinks they should be demphasized. And applying the same logic to Cyprus, which is y'know, a sovereign country and not a far-flung Greek province.

# ? Dec 17, 2019 16:08

Dante80: Mar 23, 2015

https://twitter.com/metesohtaoglu/status/1206618426963374080

# ? Dec 17, 2019 18:46

Grape: Nov 16, 2017; Happily shilling for China!

Dante80 posted:

https://twitter.com/metesohtaoglu/status/1206618426963374080

I'm telling you, these two yell and scream at each-other in public, but behind closed doors they have wild animalistic sex.

# ? Dec 17, 2019 19:03

Grape: Nov 16, 2017; Happily shilling for China!

*Turkey bashes in the head of a Kurdish teenage soldier*
*Israel bites its lower lip, even while voting on a UN resolution condemning it*

--------
*a bulldozer destroys an ancient Palestinian house*
*Turkey shakes its head angrily so everyone can see, but silently mouths "love you boo"*

# ? Dec 17, 2019 19:05

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

Grape posted:

*Turkey bashes in the head of a Kurdish teenage soldier*
*Israel bites its lower lip, even while voting on a UN resolution condemning it*

--------
*a bulldozer destroys an ancient Palestinian house*
*Turkey shakes its head angrily so everyone can see, but silently mouths "love you boo"*

tbh this is a good metaphor for diplomacy in general.

# ? Dec 18, 2019 00:14

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

Grape posted:

*Turkey bashes in the head of a Kurdish teenage soldier*
*Israel bites its lower lip, even while voting on a UN resolution condemning it*

--------
*a bulldozer destroys an ancient Palestinian house*
*Turkey shakes its head angrily so everyone can see, but silently mouths "love you boo"*

I love your posts let me just say that no matter what we agree or disagree on

# ? Dec 18, 2019 05:04

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

12 Hours ago Turkish aligned militias began targeting Ras al-Ain countryside, Tal Abyad and Ein Issa camp

# ? Dec 22, 2019 00:19

Squalid: Nov 4, 2008

Ardennes posted:

In the end, it sounds like it is only going to make life for the civilian population of Syria harder in the future. It isn�t surprising.

when I see policies like this I can't help but wonder what is this supposed to accomplish? With these sanctions I can't help but feel the goal is really just retribution or vengeance, not only against Assad but against everyone in Syria who failed to rise up against him. The person in that twitter thread was pretty much explicit about it. While I certainly understand why someone would want vengeance no country should allow that impulse to set policy. In the near term their is no prospect of sanctions forcing Assad out of power in the near term -- and policy should reflect that. The United States needs to think about what it's actually doing for the Syrian people. This policy won't just hurt Assad's supporters either, it will also hit the YPG.

# ? Dec 22, 2019 03:21

Count Roland: Oct 6, 2013

Squalid posted:

when I see policies like this I can't help but wonder what is this supposed to accomplish? With these sanctions I can't help but feel the goal is really just retribution or vengeance, not only against Assad but against everyone in Syria who failed to rise up against him. The person in that twitter thread was pretty much explicit about it. While I certainly understand why someone would want vengeance no country should allow that impulse to set policy. In the near term their is no prospect of sanctions forcing Assad out of power in the near term -- and policy should reflect that. The United States needs to think about what it's actually doing for the Syrian people. This policy won't just hurt Assad's supporters either, it will also hit the YPG.

It reminds me of the US and Iraq in the 90s. The sanctions regime resulted in the deaths of many thousands of people die to lack of medicine and the like. It didn't stop Saddam building palaces or maintaining control. Saddam was about as awful a leader as you can get, but it's pretty hard to justify the sanctions.

# ? Dec 22, 2019 05:15

Sergg: Sep 19, 2005; I was rejected by the:

WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:

12 Hours ago Turkish aligned militias began targeting Ras al-Ain countryside, Tal Abyad and Ein Issa camp

Who's occupying those positions?

# ? Dec 22, 2019 09:40

Rust Martialis: May 8, 2007; At night, Bavovnyatko quietly comes to the occupiers’ bases, depots, airfields, oil refineries and other places full of flammable items and starts playing with fire there

Sergg posted:

Who's occupying those positions?

You're responding to an unsourced WCG claim.

# ? Dec 22, 2019 10:42

Unimpressed: Feb 13, 2013

Looks like the Tiaf agreement is slowly unraveling, under pressure by the protests. Diab has just been declared prime minister, so Hezbollah and BFF Aoun control it all now.

# ? Dec 22, 2019 12:02

Count Roland: Oct 6, 2013

Rust Martialis posted:

You're responding to an unsourced WCG claim.

He's the only regular in this thread on my ignore list and believe me its an improvement.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Dec 22, 2019 17:20

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

Sergg posted:

Who's occupying those positions?

SDF. The turks get away with firing on them continuously anyway.

# ? Dec 22, 2019 20:36

Dante80: Mar 23, 2015

In other news, I had no idea that Erdogan wanted to build a canal in the Bosphorus...right close to the actual strait.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/chp-leader-accuses-the-govt-of-betraying-istanbul-over-canal-project-150030

Is he trying to close the strait and have all shipping pay tolls in the canal (thus also invalidating the Montreux Treaty) ? O_o

# ? Dec 22, 2019 20:37

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

Dante80 posted:

In other news, I had no idea that Erdogan wanted to build a canal in the Bosphorus...right close to the actual strait.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/chp-leader-accuses-the-govt-of-betraying-istanbul-over-canal-project-150030

Is he trying to close the strait and have all shipping pay tolls in the canal (thus also invalidating the Montreux Treaty) ? O_o

Closing the strait seems drastic. We need to know how large the canal is and the current limit of tonnage that can safely travel through the bosph if the planned canal is astronomically higher in carrying capacity they wont need to close it. itll just fade into obscurity like other old canals.

# ? Dec 22, 2019 20:44

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

I think he's mostly trying to prop up the construction sector. Blowing a new bubble to give a boost to the economy.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkish-construction-sector-sees-2-month-recovery-148499
http://novron.com/construction-industry-in-turkey-facts-and-figures/
https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/fr/originals/2018/10/turkey-construction-sector-threatens-big-fallout.html

# ? Dec 22, 2019 21:34

Slow News Day: Jul 4, 2007

There won't be a canal. It's just another grift attempt by Erdogan.

Cat Mattress posted:

I think he's mostly trying to prop up the construction sector. Blowing a new bubble to give a boost to the economy.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkish-construction-sector-sees-2-month-recovery-148499
http://novron.com/construction-industry-in-turkey-facts-and-figures/
https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/fr/originals/2018/10/turkey-construction-sector-threatens-big-fallout.html

Well, the actual reason is that these types of mega construction projects are almost always awarded to Erdogan's friends and the friends of those friends. It's just good ol' corruption where public funds are funneled into private pockets.

# ? Dec 22, 2019 21:36

RoyKeen: Jul 24, 2007; Grimey Drawer

Count Roland posted:

He's the only regular in this thread on my ignore list and believe me its an improvement.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Huh. What a stupid probation.

# ? Dec 22, 2019 22:58

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

Upwards of 50-100,000 Syrians have fled from the southeast of Idlib to the northeast. Russian/Syria bombs have made many frontline villages completely uninhabitable and Syrian shelling of the north maarat al-nouman roadways has created a trapped citizen type deal inside the city. The local councis are begging for a safe corridor to be opened up but those requests have so far fallen on deaf ears.

Not sure why I need to cite source a ceasefire violation when there's a literal sea of violations that happen daily.

do I also need to cite source people evacuating idlib? is that up for debate?

25,000 have fled across border
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey-migrants-idUSKBN1YQ07D

quote:

Speaking at an awards ceremony in Istanbul on Sunday night, Erdogan said more than 80,000 people were currently on the move from Idlib to Turkey.

# ? Dec 22, 2019 23:56

Dawncloack: Nov 26, 2007; ECKS DEE!; Nap Ghost

WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:

do I also need to cite source people evacuating idlib? is that up for debate?

Yes, you do my friend. It's not up for debate because you cites sources.

# ? Dec 23, 2019 00:05

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

In Algerian news, Gaid Salah (the guy who remained in charge when Bouteflika and co. were pushed out) just died. History will remember him as the guy who didn't get the time to turn Algeria into a full-fledged military dictatorship.

# ? Dec 23, 2019 12:05

Jagged Jim: Sep 26, 2013; I... I can only look though the window...

Saudi Arabia sentences five to death over Jamal Khashoggi murder
Cleaning up MBS's little whoopsie continues.

# ? Dec 23, 2019 12:16

Cable Guy: Jul 18, 2005; I don't expect any trouble, but we'll be handing these out later...; Slippery Tilde

Jagged Jim posted:

Saudi Arabia sentences five to death over Jamal Khashoggi murder
Cleaning up MBS's little whoopsie continues.

Were any of the defendants people who'd been identified previously...?

# ? Dec 23, 2019 14:13

Jagged Jim: Sep 26, 2013; I... I can only look though the window...

No idea. They haven't identified any of the defendants other than they are not Saud al Qahtani or Ahmed Asiri.

Here's a Twitter thread with some more detail:
https://twitter.com/yeh1a/status/1209047011179270144?s=20
https://twitter.com/yeh1a/status/1209073485710077952?s=20
https://twitter.com/yeh1a/status/1209100570696568832?s=20

# ? Dec 23, 2019 14:33

Squalid: Nov 4, 2008

Cat Mattress posted:

In Algerian news, Gaid Salah (the guy who remained in charge when Bouteflika and co. were pushed out) just died. History will remember him as the guy who didn't get the time to turn Algeria into a full-fledged military dictatorship.

This could increase the likelihood of Algeria continuing democratic reform. Now if the rest of the military old guard could die too that'd be really good news.

# ? Dec 23, 2019 16:21

MiddleOne: Feb 17, 2011

Jagged Jim posted:

No idea. They haven't identified any of the defendants other than they are not Saud al Qahtani or Ahmed Asiri.

Here's a Twitter thread with some more detail:
https://twitter.com/yeh1a/status/1209047011179270144?s=20
https://twitter.com/yeh1a/status/1209073485710077952?s=20
https://twitter.com/yeh1a/status/1209100570696568832?s=20

So for all we know they're sentencing anyone, or even potentially no one. Great.

# ? Dec 23, 2019 16:26

Count Roland: Oct 6, 2013

Dante80 posted:

In other news, I had no idea that Erdogan wanted to build a canal in the Bosphorus...right close to the actual strait.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/chp-leader-accuses-the-govt-of-betraying-istanbul-over-canal-project-150030

Is he trying to close the strait and have all shipping pay tolls in the canal (thus also invalidating the Montreux Treaty) ? O_o

This was proposed several years ago. Much like the canal proposed in Nicaragua, I'm not holding my breath.

# ? Dec 23, 2019 20:57

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Nothing says fair and functional judiciary like a trial where nobody knows who the defendants are.

# ? Dec 24, 2019 01:33

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

Watch them throw a bunch of joe low level drug dealer who is labeled as a " HEAD INTELLIGENCE COMMANDER" get executed by sauds.

Interesting that sauda get away with illegal executions by having fake executions.*

*well the CHARGES are fake not the executions. Lol saudis dont need to fake executions they have popular soverignty!

# ? Dec 24, 2019 03:19

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Count Roland posted:

It reminds me of the US and Iraq in the 90s. The sanctions regime resulted in the deaths of many thousands of people die to lack of medicine and the like. It didn't stop Saddam building palaces or maintaining control. Saddam was about as awful a leader as you can get, but it's pretty hard to justify the sanctions.

Just ask Albright, I�m sure she still won�t have a problem.

# ? Dec 24, 2019 12:12

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 25, 2024 03:28

Dawncloack: Nov 26, 2007; ECKS DEE!; Nap Ghost

Orange Devil posted:

Just ask Albright, I’m sure she still won’t have a problem.

code:


Ask(WorldLeader, problem, brownPeople = dead)
      {
           If(EU)
           {
                Handwringing();
           }

           If(FIREsectorProblem)
           {
                Return RedalertMaximumAction();
           }
           else
           {
                Return false;
           }

}

Dawncloack fucked around with this message at 11:22 on Dec 25, 2019

# ? Dec 25, 2019 11:02

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread: Clarissa Explains the Fall

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