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winegums posted:Blair had 420 seats in 1997. He could've enacted gay communism and had every newspaper editor executed if he wanted to. E: 
Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Dec 22, 2019 |
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Dec 22, 2019 23:43
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Bobby Deluxe posted:Part of me thinks we need a Labour leader that can cozy up to the papers and make nice with a palatable centrist manifesto, and then the second the polls close rip off the mask and yell SURPRISE FUCKERS ITS LUXURY SPACE COMMUNISM TIME while firing double guns in the air I mean, this would be the ideal. But by the same token, we also need every billionaire to stop hoarding wealth and start paying their workers properly, every oil company to throw all their future research funding into fusion power, every... etc. If we're talking pipe dreams, why stop at 'a decent Labour leader is elected on the grounds of duplicity'?
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Dec 22, 2019 23:49
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It works for the Conservatives
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Dec 22, 2019 23:50
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I'm against the death penalty but for the guillotine.
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Dec 22, 2019 23:53
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Bundy posted:https://twitter.com/MrStephenHowson/status/1208851977259671553 I'm here to try and have a balanced debate, which means only bad points and hot takes allowed,; your argument was too compelling
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Dec 22, 2019 23:54
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Bobby Deluxe posted:Part of me thinks we need a Labour leader that can cozy up to the papers and make nice with a palatable centrist manifesto, and then the second the polls close rip off the mask and yell SURPRISE FUCKERS ITS LUXURY SPACE COMMUNISM TIME while firing double guns in the air downside, how do you as a Labour voter tell the difference between that guy and an actual centrist
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Dec 22, 2019 23:55
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GreyjoyBastard posted:downside, how do you as a Labour voter tell the difference between that guy and an actual centrist They don't get skullfucked into horrific electoral defeats with the actual centrist.
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Dec 23, 2019 00:02
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Bobby Deluxe posted:Part of me thinks we need a Labour leader that can cozy up to the papers and make nice with a palatable centrist manifesto, and then the second the polls close rip off the mask and yell SURPRISE FUCKERS ITS LUXURY SPACE COMMUNISM TIME while firing double guns in the air I'd love this, but the problem is, someone running with that goal in mind would be scorned and hated by us as a centrist melt, and who knows if they could get the voters out? But yeah a full centrist turning out to go "When will I enact FALGSC? I enacted it thirty-five minutes ago. Do you really think I'd explain my masterstroke if there was any chance of you affecting its outcome?" to the press would be 
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Dec 23, 2019 00:28
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Nice meltdown https://twitter.com/brokenbottleboy/status/1208892735064825858?s=19
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Dec 23, 2019 00:43
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willie_dee posted:Yea I’m actually against the death penalty in reality. Just very angry at the sentencing for those horrors. Would you prefer a 16 year old had the "key thrown away" if you're just exaggerating about shooting them in the head?
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Dec 23, 2019 01:33
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Bundy posted:Would you prefer a 16 year old had the "key thrown away" if you're just exaggerating about shooting them in the head? Significant time in a re education camp
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Dec 23, 2019 01:35
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willie_dee posted:Significant time in a re education camp So, "rehabilitation". Guess what this government and the people that voted for this government have little interest in? Punitive "justice" proves time and again it doesn't work, people re-offend, often worse because life prospects are now in the shitter because no one will hire you with a record. The point made about rec centres etc is a good one. When you take away the comforts and needs of human beings, eventually misery and mental health takes its toll until we reject the society that's harming us and everything in it as well as becoming more selfish and resentful. Large societies work on trust and support, there's no need to feel paranoid in vast crowds of a society etc. When you take those away from sections of society, those sections break away. Do it in such a manner they become loving destitute and start reverting to more base human instincts of fear and distrust, you get what we see every loving day on the streets. You just happen to be mad about one incident. I cannot tell you how many homeless people I've attempted to interact with and it's like there's no one there, barely an acknowledgement of my presence. Ostracising and disenfranchising people is a loving horrible thing to do, more so to vulnerable people. This has an effect of punching down, as the 16 year old with zero prospects punches down on the gay couple (and has you fantasising about punching down on the 16 year old). What you need to start wrapping your head around is the 16 year old and the terrorist on the bridge are symptoms of the same problem. We're not robots, we don't all sink into a deep depression and go to bed when life sucks as hard as it could possibly suck. Some become violent, some self-harm, others become recluse, however they are all victims of the same loving lack of care and compassion from those in power and thus are deserving of the same compassion from the onlooker. NinpoEspiritoSanto fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Dec 23, 2019 |
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Dec 23, 2019 01:47
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Who is this woman? Is she just a rather vocal racist idiot or the “new” Katie Hopkins?
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Dec 23, 2019 01:50
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Jel Shaker posted:Who is this woman? Is she just a rather vocal racist idiot or the “new” Katie Hopkins? A "journalist". Same one that fell for the "My friend is a nurse and they say that child is a LIE" bot messages. Pearson is a loving shitbag.
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Dec 23, 2019 01:54
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Telegraph columnist iirc.
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Dec 23, 2019 01:58
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OwlFancier posted:Telegraph columnist iirc. That's redundant with "loving shitbag".
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Dec 23, 2019 02:06
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All telegraph columnists are loving shitbags but not all loving shitbags can aspire to be telegraph columnists 
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Dec 23, 2019 02:09
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OwlFancier posted:All telegraph columnists are loving shitbags but not all loving shitbags can aspire to be telegraph columnists Yes, not all Shitbags get to go to the right school
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Dec 23, 2019 02:20
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Some proper chat on Sky Sports today https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEpG5JNWCWI Literally better than BBC lol
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Dec 23, 2019 02:28
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Bobby Deluxe posted:Part of me thinks we need a Labour leader that can cozy up to the papers and make nice with a palatable centrist manifesto, and then the second the polls close rip off the mask and yell SURPRISE FUCKERS ITS LUXURY SPACE COMMUNISM TIME while firing double guns in the air This raises an interesting question - what is stopping a government with a comfortable majority just forcing through an enabling act, declaring elections suspended, and then doing whatever the hell the like good or ill (legally speaking, though I doubt whether even that would prompt mass rebellion in loving Britain)
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Dec 23, 2019 02:29
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The courts possibly could declare it unconstitutional, but obviously like everything that only matters if it doesn't have popular support. Recall of course that until the FTPA was written there wasn't a legal mechanism that made elections happen either, every government just agreed to call them about every four years.
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Dec 23, 2019 02:40
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OwlFancier posted:The courts possibly could declare it unconstitutional, but obviously like everything that only matters if it doesn't have popular support. And the courts could them be legislated out of all relevance. In practice, if you're willing to ignore all the unwritten rules and gentlemen's agreements there's nothing you can't do with a supportive majority. I only hope Boris doesn't quite grasp this.
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Dec 23, 2019 02:48
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Another good long read from the inside about some of the less explored elements of Labour's defeat from one of McDonnell's crew.
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Dec 23, 2019 03:06
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I don't know that I agree with the idea that labour shouldn't have voted for the election... they didn't have a choice? We just barely managed to get the extension and the alternative was crashing out of the EU.
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Dec 23, 2019 03:13
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Bit of an early morning vent because I can't sleep, but it will be no surprise for people to hear that there has been a continued push of abuse at Muslims in public and on social media. I've been called a few horrid things over the past week for daring to be brown and popping into my mosque for a cuppa. Another was from someone I served with (not directly aimed at me in this instance). I am confident enough to be thick skinned but it's demoralising being (even a non practicing!) Muslim on the left. I have no idea how people like Aleesha or Hasan Patel put up with it across twitter. Keep up the fight my dudes.
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Dec 23, 2019 04:27
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Don't forget things like men's toiletries - shaving gear, disposable razors, deodorants that don't smell of flowers (people seem to remember women's ones more than mens), bog roll, and other non-food items. They do tend to get a lot of cereals. Yeah I've posted this before but doesn't hurt to do it again: Check with your local food bank. Most have websites these days. Mine had one which told you what they need and importantly what they currently have too much of. Interestingly mine always had too many tins of beans, pasta, cereal and ladies sanitary products. Some food banks will also put leaflets by the donation bins which give you a guide of what kind of things they need. Commonly on the list for my local one was: Tinned fruit and veg. Tinned tomatoes. Tinned meat. Tinned custard/rice pudding. Pasta sauce. Long life milk/fruit juice. Spreads (peanut butter, jam etc.)
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Dec 23, 2019 05:16
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Flipswitch posted:Bit of an early morning vent because I can't sleep, but it will be no surprise for people to hear that there has been a continued push of abuse at Muslims in public and on social media. I'm sorry you're having to deal with this. You deserve better from this country 
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Dec 23, 2019 07:16
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Darth Walrus posted:Another good long read from the inside about some of the less explored elements of Labour's defeat from one of McDonnell's crew. quote:The simple honest truth is we lost this election the moment we agreed to it. We should never have allowed the Tories to have had this election on their terms. We started the campaign polling around 23% in the polls and agreed to a shorter election period than in 2017, and to take place over winter just before Christmas. You didn’t need to see the results coming on Friday 13th to think this election had a lot of bad omens. Mills is either confused or disingenuous here; the debate for months was over whether to have a second referendum first (which Thornberry now claims to have secretly favoured on get-it-out-of-the-way grounds) or whether to keep steadfastly whipping for a general election first. As late as September, Conference offered the leadership a get-out-of-2017-commitment-jail card for free and the leadership whipped very hard against it, with Corbyn tabling the Brexit statement to the NEC, which duly presented it to Conference, which duly passed that instead (observe that this is just the left's factional capital being expended - the NEC is not bound by cabinet collective responsibility, even in theory; if the left can frame these votes as votes of confidence in the leadership, empowering the NEC as Mill suggests presents no meaningful check). If the leadership secretly felt that the polls were terrible and were secretly not subscribers to the it-was-Corbyn's-personal-touch theory of 2017, they were indeed working very hard to mislead their own activists and it is hardly shocking that 1) activists were thusly misled, and 2) party apparatchiks who did buy into the New Permanent Labour Majority found their decisions unchallengeable until the reality eventually dispelled the bubble. The "passionate activist base desperate to take the fight to the Tories" was very much its own doing. If one can pinpoint a critical mistake there, that was it, and directly traceable to the person of J. Corbs. (I have argued at length that the leadership did secretly think that the polls were terrible, have been terrible since just months from the 2017 GE, and that this was the real reason they were hesitating from a general election in end 2018 and again in the leadup to the GE vote in 2019) quote:Once the starting pistol for the election was fired, Labour’s strategy in this campaign was quite a simple one. Rebuild the coalition of voters who backed the party in 2017 in order to hold our gains in that election, and hopefully build momentum in the campaign to secure more seats to obtain the largest party status. Obviously, achieving a majority would have been the top target but getting a Labour government by any path was the clear overall goal. This does give some insight into the "why did Labour initially move to kneecap the Lib Dems with free broadband first" question I had... but of course that would be a defensive approach directly contradictory to the "actually, Leave-leaning Labour constituencies of older voters" offensive strategy pursued later. Obviously there was sharp disagreement between Labour's electoral strategists. Again, arguably self-inflicted - the leadership machined very hard to prevent this indecision from being resolved via party mandate. He's right that the end of ambiguity would have sucked either way. My sense is that leaning more Remain would have reduced losses but it's certainly arguable. quote:Some may say we never had this in the past and blame the leadership for our lack of preparedness, but if you want to genuinely solve it going forward we need to lever responsibility away from much of these day-to-day issues from LOTO. They have enough to be getting on with, and should instead feed in and set objectives. If the party is to be a 21st century social movement as many members are calling for then we need to update much of our archaic party architecture. It's not like May found it easy to corral her dissidents (e.g. Johnson) when she was leader... it's true that these processes paralyze parties, but the prima facie necessity of OMOV internal party processes is now an overwhelming consensus in the UK. Note that Mill is referring to internal opponents on the left here... Mills puts a finger exactly on the problem, but not solutions, if any really exist. Labour's enforcement of meaningful collective cabinet responsibility has been problematic ever since Tony Benn set a precedent that openly flouting it would instead lead to a triumphant career as a dissident tribune, rather than one's party role ending right there. And since no ministers can be trusted, even today those of the big four, everything needs to be centralized to trusted advisers directly answerable to the PMO - ideally those whose political skills are so abysmal they wouldn't be able to pursue a career independently. And that necessitates presidential leaderships, shadow party organizations that can be trusted to take political goals as given rather than using their execution roles and expertise to brief against them, and objective advisers who submit their objective reports confidentially rather than being answerable to those whose careers only benefit from instantly leaking it (a risk that is very much already general consciousness - see, e.g., Andrew Fisher's despair over confidential reports being left uncovered). The need to subordinate that organization only to the PMO/LOTO centralizes responsibility for decisions in a presidential leadership anyway, with the formal party relegated to generating acclamations on-demand as political capital that can pay for its occasional unrestrainable bouts of pique. Mill is not wrong on what needs to be done for organizational success, but fundamentally that organization cannot be the party organization, and the post-New-Labour left's experiments with empowering Labour HQ have only underscored the structural reasons why the Mandelson machine, the boring Conferences, the quiescent NPF, &c existed to begin with. It's what works, regardless of the faction in power. ronya fucked around with this message at 08:59 on Dec 23, 2019 |
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Dec 23, 2019 08:52
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So custodial sentencing doesn't work for young offenders. What does? Mandatory empathy classes, community service, randomly getting the poo poo kicked out of them once a month? I just find it night and day how this thread initially reacted to this homophobic assault.
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Dec 23, 2019 08:54
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ronya posted:Lots of words I agree with this assessment - and one big disappointment for a lot of people that initially supported corbyn (myself included) was his ostensible commitment to party democracy through membership-led policy formulation was very much a lip-service to be employed when it benefitted the leadership, or potentially McCluskey, given how much authority he appears to have been given over the party structure. The commitment to be clear and forthright also gave way to triangulation and ‘strategic ambiguity’ very quickly, despite the concern many had over triangulation as a strategy. Maybe in itself this wouldn’t have been a bad thing, save for the commitment to do the opposite.
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Dec 23, 2019 09:10
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ShredsYouSay posted:So custodial sentencing doesn't work for young offenders. What does? Mandatory empathy classes, community service, randomly getting the poo poo kicked out of them once a month? In this case community orders work slightly better than custodial sentencing at preventing reoffending, and a decent probation and social sector works better than either.
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Dec 23, 2019 09:10
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Rarity posted:I'm sorry you're having to deal with this. You deserve better from this country Thanks Rarity. A lot of people seem to think racism doesn't happen in the UK, usually because they haven't had to deal with it personally. The others are just bastards.
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Dec 23, 2019 09:50
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Flipswitch posted:Thanks Rarity. A lot of people seem to think racism doesn't happen in the UK, usually because they haven't had to deal with it personally. The others are just bastards. Sorry this happened to you Flipswitch. Unfortunately I can only see matters worsening for muslims under this government coupled with so many British people thinking it is acceptable to hate on muslims.
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Dec 23, 2019 09:59
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The medium post is interesting but what does Mills suggest? hope that Boris tore the party apart in the two months before Brexit happened? That the ERG would suddenly not be ok with no deal? The executive was already castrated but it's not like Macron would have stopped being a piece of poo poo during a national strike and caved on another year because it might have helped his beloved friends, the socialists. He wasn't going to allow the tories to lose.
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Dec 23, 2019 10:29
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OwlFancier posted:The courts possibly could declare it unconstitutional, but obviously like everything that only matters if it doesn't have popular support. the previous fallback was the Parliament Act 1911 which automatically dissolved Parliament five years after its first sitting day (and was one of the reasons Major was forced into the 1997 election). Before that was the Septennial Act 1716 which set this term at seven years (both are now repealed by the FTPA), and before that was the Meeting of Parliament Act / Triennial Act 1694 which set it at three years (and was partly repealed by the Statute Law Revision Act 1867) The dangerous part is that by repealing the Fixed Term Parliaments Act 2011 wholesale and not replacing it with legislation that defines the maximum length of a parliament, there will be no formal timeout to dissolve parliament other than by the government's bidding. The Conservative Manifesto 2019 does not define replacement, only quote:We will get rid of the Fixed Term Parliaments Act - it has led to paralysis at a time the country needed decisive action e: unless of course repealling the FTPA unrepeales the Parliament Act 1911 provision - I am not a lawyer so not sure how the repealling of an act that repealls a previous act works in our house of cards of a constitution Doccykins fucked around with this message at 10:50 on Dec 23, 2019 |
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Dec 23, 2019 10:45
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Doccykins posted:The dangerous part is that by repealing the Fixed Term Parliaments Act 2011 wholesale and not replacing it with legislation that defines the maximum length of a parliament, there will be no formal timeout to dissolve parliament other than by the government's bidding. The Conservative Manifesto 2019 does not define replacement, only Does repealing the FTPA not repeal its repealing of the Septennial Act 1716 as amended in 1911?
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Dec 23, 2019 10:50
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The new declawed Supreme Court will decide on that in 2024.
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Dec 23, 2019 10:58
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Spangly A posted:The medium post is interesting but what does Mills suggest? hope that Boris tore the party apart in the two months before Brexit happened? That the ERG would suddenly not be ok with no deal? The executive was already castrated but it's not like Macron would have stopped being a piece of poo poo during a national strike and caved on another year because it might have helped his beloved friends, the socialists. He wasn't going to allow the tories to lose. the timing in Mills' narrative is off somewhere because the Commons passed the early general election on Oct 31st, shortly after the 3 month extension to 31st Jan was granted. So whatever Labour decides in November can't undo the GE
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Dec 23, 2019 11:48
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Dec 23, 2019 12:01
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Gef the talking mongoose was an unexpected deep cut. (Well worth reading up on the story for a delicious slice of paranormal(?) insanity)
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