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VROOM VROOM posted:uh Hopkins FBI posted:I'm a cis white man and I'm not really sure what kind of support or comfort I can provide. But to any trans posters who are reading this, I love and appreciate you as a human being. The harrassment I've seen some of you suffer here is probably only a fraction of what you go through in real life. You don't deserve any of it. You're good people. I'm glad you're both back
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Jan 1, 2020 18:23
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A Buttery Pastry posted:FYAD, despite perhaps not being the most populous forum, shares one important characteristic with everywhere other forum: Not every poster in the forum reads every thread. The people who were actually FYAD posters did not actually do much of anything except "Well whatever I didn't like it but it's over now"
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Jan 1, 2020 18:24
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A Buttery Pastry posted:FYAD, despite perhaps not being the most populous forum, shares one important characteristic with everywhere other forum: Not every poster in the forum reads every thread. Dude there were multiple threads for mocking transgender people in FYAD. This ain't it, chief.
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Jan 1, 2020 18:24
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no thank you
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Jan 1, 2020 18:24
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The vast majority of the people identified as "FYAD posters" in that thread weren't. Just because some shithead defends garbage in FYAD (or any other forum) doesn't mean they represent the forum. Like, FYAD would've been way more active if the people identified as FYAD posters actually were. That doesn't mean there weren't FYAD posters in there defending that poo poo though. Hell now-former mod Pog Boyfriend spent two threads kicking their shoes in the dirt going "Golly gee these posts and thread are bad but I don't want my clubhouse and friends punished for making them.". Not to mention, you know, all the threads in FYAD before and after the rebirth.
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Jan 1, 2020 18:25
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Is there anything left for this thread to discuss re its original topic? Lowtax has reverted bans, explained his situation, issued an announcement, and is doing some reading to better understand the issue. I understand there are many other things people want to bring up, about admins rotation and customs avs among other things, but I think it's better to let Lowtax focus on one thing at a time. To avoid further escalations, I suggest the thread ought to be locked for the time being with an explanation by a mod.
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Jan 1, 2020 18:25
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I think some parts of the forums just do this as part of their sensibility, whereas other parts of the forum have barely even noticed this happened and will continue to be barely aware of it.
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Jan 1, 2020 18:26
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Paladinus posted:Is there anything left for this thread to discuss re its original topic? Lowtax has reverted bans, explained his situation, issued an announcement, and is doing some reading to better understand the issue. I understand there are many other things people want to bring up, about admins rotation and customs avs among other things, but I think it's better to let Lowtax focus on one thing at a time. To avoid further escalations, I suggest the thread ought to be locked for the time being with an explanation by a mod. There is literally nowhere else on the forums to have a discussion about the core underlying issues that have led here.
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Jan 1, 2020 18:26
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The vast majority of the people identified as "FYAD posters" in that thread weren't. Just because some shithead defends garbage in FYAD (or any other forum) doesn't mean they represent the forum. Like, FYAD would've been way more active if the people identified as FYAD posters actually were. ArfJason posted:gently caress, more than 90% of the people being shitheads on this forum ppl accuse of being fyad and you can do userid:xxxx search on the closed fyad to find out thats not true. Like the ease with which this can be checked is what makes these accusations all the more baffling that theyre taken at face value. Yah its wild lol.
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Jan 1, 2020 18:26
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CascadeBeta posted:You demanding you be handled with gloves because you don't know anything, refuse to learn anything and then take action last night that absolutely is the opposite of support is loving ridiculous.
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Jan 1, 2020 18:26
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Bedshaped posted:you probably shouldn't be a mod if you don't care about the whole forum Mods are volunteers. Mods will not volunteer if you're asking them to read FYAD or take stewardship over places they have no interest in. It's fine to say "just make IKs" like that's cool except you still need mods and admins to do the approvals on things. Like "just get more mods who care about the forums" is unfortunately not that easy when you couple it with "you have to read the most onerous poo poo on this website instead of the posts you've already been reading for a decade," you know?
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Jan 1, 2020 18:26
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Lowtax posted:I thought I was banning C-SPAM users. How was I supposed to know they were trans people? I mean, can you understand how I might not be instantly able to identify that a person primarily posts in a different forum, when they're posting in another forum? I can't tell who is trans and who is not, I can't tell who posts where primarily. You were banning people who were quoting something that was pretty loving transphobic, did you seriously not think there weren't going to be trans posters echoing that?
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Jan 1, 2020 18:27
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Lowtax posted:I thought I was banning C-SPAM users. How was I supposed to know they were trans people? I mean, can you understand how I might not be instantly able to identify that a person primarily posts in a different forum, when they're posting in another forum? I can't tell who is trans and who is not, I can't tell who posts where primarily. Maybe try to understand a situation before just swinging a big 'ole banhammer?
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Jan 1, 2020 18:27
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I am hugely thankful to lowtax and minority posters for giving me, a dumb as hell idiot far removed from any danger, a small insight into a rank awful world I had no idea existed. I can't imagine what sort of person I would be without this place, but certainly a worse and less kind one. I need this place to survive, intact. every few years this happens. an issue festers, the chain of information bottlenecks and breaks down at the admin level because no one can actually grasp the forums in their entirety, tax man gets cut out of the loop as everyone necessarily kicks the impossibly large can back and forth, wagons get circled, and stuff goes to dogshit until Lowtax returns to frantically untangle the threads while getting 360 degree shame circled for not doing anything. its a fuckin mess. I think "Admin" is no longer a tenable position any volunteer human being can actually be expected to succeed at. it hasn't been for some years now, and the admin position only exists because we inherited it: That's Just How 90's Forums Are. i don't even know what the gently caress is in a significant amount of subforums, how can anyone be expected to integrate the needs of all these places? it's wildly unrealistic. and yet, someone successfully performing this impossible role is essential to the forums functioning. that is not good. throwing more patient and gentle souls into the Admin meat grinder is not going to help anything. if we got rid of it and organized around social units that actually matter, forums and subforums, this sort of thing would happen dramatically less.
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Jan 1, 2020 18:28
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CascadeBeta posted:Personal attacks like "This isn't a good enough solution" and "Please listen to our feedback" and "The lack of action taken by the admin staff makes us believe that they don't actually care about us".
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Jan 1, 2020 18:29
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Paladinus posted:Is there anything left for this thread to discuss re its original topic? Lowtax has reverted bans, explained his situation, issued an announcement, and is doing some reading to better understand the issue. I understand there are many other things people want to bring up, about admins rotation and customs avs among other things, but I think it's better to let Lowtax focus on one thing at a time. To avoid further escalations, I suggest the thread ought to be locked for the time being with an explanation by a mod. I for one won't rest until lowtax has personally agreed to eat sand and rub chiles in his eyes and promises to live out the rest of his days destitute and depressed. Or he can put in the earnest effort to understand how things got so insanely bad that month long harassment campaigns were waged against minority posters and makes sure steps are taken to prevent it from happening again. I suppose that would also be good enough
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Jan 1, 2020 18:29
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ArfJason posted:Yah its wild lol. Perhaps some consideration is warranted on the type of people taking up the banner and why that is?
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Jan 1, 2020 18:29
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:To be clear, pretty much everyone who is "conversing like normal human beings " is biting their tongue and not saying everything that's on their mind, because they think it's a better strategy that's generally how most adverse communications go, in life, i find. if we are arguing. i don't call you a dumb rear end motherfucker even if i want to, only very minutely because of a standard of politeness and decorum, and mostly because i want you to agree with my point of view and putting you on the defensive tends to be counterproductive to that ends. im kind of surprised that people are surprised that people react really poorly to being insulted and mocked, no matter how much they deserve it. you don't have to actually give a poo poo about them but being stupified at a basic stimulus-response thing is weird, to me. i don't know what people expect.
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Jan 1, 2020 18:30
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I for one won't rest until lowtax has personally agreed to eat sand and rub chiles in his eyes and promises to live out the rest of his days destitute and depressed. Or he can put in the earnest effort to understand how things got so insanely bad that month long harassment campaigns were waged against minority posters and makes sure steps are taken to prevent it from happening again. I suppose that would also be good enough I think the first one is more likely to happen just naturally from his living habits.
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Jan 1, 2020 18:30
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groyper avs in youtube chat egging on who to ban sure doesn't help the optics
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Jan 1, 2020 18:30
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Lowtax posted:Um those were not the personal attacks I was talking about, and you know that. Hey if you have issues with dealing with Cass sincerely because of her tone why not engage with any of the more even handed posts ITT about the issues?
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Jan 1, 2020 18:31
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CascadeBeta posted:You were banning people who were quoting something that was pretty loving transphobic, did you seriously not think there weren't going to be trans posters echoing that?
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Jan 1, 2020 18:31
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Hey Lowtax, thanks for the unbans and for trying to understand the situation. Some of the people prodding you and jabbing you are doing so to shitstir or because of weird old grudges I guess because that seems to happen every time you post anywhere, but some have really legitimate concerns and anger over having been the targets of concentrated harassment campaigns, which is something you should understand because of aforementioned weird grudge posters! Obviously you're not omniscient and this is part of the missing context you didn't have earlier and are still trying to get a grasp on. Obviously you've got RL poo poo going on that's extremely stressful and not making untangling this context easier. And you did instate a new rule I believe you fully intend to be enforced and undid your bans from the other night. But, as sympathetic as I am, I'm also upset with you, and it's frustrating because I feel like there's not a decent way to express that upset to you. I just don't really understand how you own a pretty big forum for 20 years and still think jumping in without context to Fix Everything is going to result in anything but a bigger headache and some rightfully upset people. Like, yeah, it'd be lovely if mods and admins could do The Right Thing instantly all the time, but when things that have been simmering pop off they pop off fast and human beings have a limit on how much information they can process in a set period of time. Please just, like, allow yourself to be a human being and ask for help with this stuff.
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Jan 1, 2020 18:32
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Maybe try to understand a situation before just swinging a big 'ole banhammer? He's acknowledged that was a fuckup and reverted it. I appreciate the sentiment because it's not something that goes away instantly or anything but I think he is at least doing this thing. We're goin' in some circles over last night and it's important everyone be heard but progress is being made at least. I don't think Lowtax understood that there was something that needed to be understood, even, at the time.
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Jan 1, 2020 18:32
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Lowtax posted:I thought I was banning C-SPAM users. How was I supposed to know they were trans people? I mean, can you understand how I might not be instantly able to identify that a person primarily posts in a different forum, when they're posting in another forum? I can't tell who is trans and who is not, I can't tell who posts where primarily. There's no answer other than for problems to be dealt with before it comes to "ban the angry people so the fires go out". Once the fires are lit, and I understand that your personal circumstances mean you're basically summoned only when you see the smoke, you're stuck with the irreconcilable contradiction that it's bad for the forum that they keep burning but they were also probably lit by people mad about something that was bad for the forum.
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Jan 1, 2020 18:33
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Paramemetic posted:Mods are volunteers. Mods will not volunteer if you're asking them to read FYAD or take stewardship over places they have no interest in. It's fine to say "just make IKs" like that's cool except you still need mods and admins to do the approvals on things. Mods aren't even always volunteers, like poo poo IIRC PPJ was just a dude who posted twitter dumps in the USPOL thread and woke up with a star one morning. Honestly, getting more mods and cycling them in and out feels like a decent idea if only because the job massively burns out otherwise decent posters, and there's only so long before even the best posters crack under the increasing responsibility and strain.
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Jan 1, 2020 18:33
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mags posted:groyper avs in youtube chat egging on who to ban sure doesn't help the optics
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Jan 1, 2020 18:33
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Lowtax posted:I was banning people who were intentionally misrepresenting the things I said, and cherrypicking quotes to make me appear transphobic. I made it clear I was speaking about ONE SINGLE GROUP OF PEOPLE. I should be able to criticize one group of people without that being twisted into suddenly I'm a transphobe. I've been in two completely lovely marriages but I'm not a misogynist. I just really do not like those two people. Ah. "Those people" then? How dare "those people" get so uppity because they didn't accept your grand compromise with the bigot forum, right?
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Jan 1, 2020 18:34
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CascadeBeta posted:I mean in response to me saying that I believed that admins were trying to shove this whole thing under the rug because the bare minimum if any action was being taken, you responded with: 30+ posters were banned and a dozen were permabanned, all for bigotry and harassment, on the big moderation day a few weeks ago, and since then more posters from FYAD have been banned/permabanned, including two more from last night. FYAD was closed for several weeks and then reopened with new mods (who were immediately removed once people objected to these posters being moderators). At least two admins stepped down over this. I've been on these forums for many years and I can't think of any other time where that many people got banned all at once that wasn't like, shark week or election toxxes or something simlar. What do you consider "bare minimum"?
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Jan 1, 2020 18:34
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Hey lowtax, there's been some more info posted for you in the mod forum, if you could swing by real quick.
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Jan 1, 2020 18:34
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Tashilicious posted:There is literally nowhere else on the forums to have a discussion about the core underlying issues that have led here. It's unreasonable to expect Lowtax to be able to both follow this thread and read up on hundreds of pages in QCS. At least from what see, people have already stated their general positions, and now Lowtax just needs time to catch up on particularities. When Lowtax is ready, he can reopen QCS, post a thread and invite feedback with another announcement. Until then, what do you think further discussion here may accomplish?
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Jan 1, 2020 18:34
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Hey if you have issues with dealing with Cass sincerely because of her tone why not engage with any of the more even handed posts ITT about the issues?
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Jan 1, 2020 18:35
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SKULL.GIF posted:30+ posters were banned and a dozen were permabanned, all for bigotry and harassment, on the big moderation day a few weeks ago, and since then more posters from FYAD have been banned/permabanned, including two more from last night. FYAD was closed for several weeks and then reopened with new mods (who were immediately removed once people objected to these posters being moderators). At least two admins stepped down over this. I've been on these forums for many years and I can't think of any other time where that many people got banned all at once that wasn't like, shark week or election toxxes or something simlar. What you just described.
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Jan 1, 2020 18:35
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Tashilicious posted:What you just described. That is an absurd notion (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 1, 2020 18:35
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Lowtax posted:I was banning people who were intentionally misrepresenting the things I said, and cherrypicking quotes to make me appear transphobic. I made it clear I was speaking about ONE SINGLE GROUP OF PEOPLE. I should be able to criticize one group of people without that being twisted into suddenly I'm a transphobe. I've been in two completely lovely marriages but I'm not a misogynist. I just really do not like those two people. Didn't that image also have a quote from you about you specifically didn't mean all trans people? That doesn't sound like cherrypicking to me, that sounds like a fair representation of what you've said. 
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Jan 1, 2020 18:35
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Also while we've got admins here can we get some placeholder avs that aren't insanely offensive
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Jan 1, 2020 18:36
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Lowtax posted:I was banning people who were intentionally misrepresenting the things I said, and cherrypicking quotes to make me appear transphobic. I made it clear I was speaking about ONE SINGLE GROUP OF PEOPLE. I should be able to criticize one group of people without that being twisted into suddenly I'm a transphobe. I've been in two completely lovely marriages but I'm not a misogynist. I just really do not like those two people. Pull up, chief. Like this may all be entirely true, and in fact I believe it is. I think you're not a transphobe or a misogynist. But you gotta understand that this is also what literally every racist and bigot has said for years. "I don't hate Black people but you know, there are Black people and then there are..." That's not what you're saying and not what you mean, but it looks awfully close. The correct response is p much "hey, my bad, what can I do to make this right" and then you evaluate what people say and if you can do it, do it, and if you can't do it or don't want to do it, answer and explain why and dialogue. Don't do this justification thing tho because even if it's 100% true and honest and good faith, the fact that a lot of extremely lovely people have been using it as cover for centuries means it's likely to be interpreted the wrong way by people who are historically oppressed by it.
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Jan 1, 2020 18:36
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SKULL.GIF posted:30+ posters were banned and a dozen were permabanned, all for bigotry and harassment, on the big moderation day a few weeks ago, and since then more posters from FYAD have been banned/permabanned, including two more from last night. FYAD was closed for several weeks and then reopened with new mods (who were immediately removed once people objected to these posters being moderators). At least two admins stepped down over this. I've been on these forums for many years and I can't think of any other time where that many people got banned all at once that wasn't like, shark week or election toxxes or something simlar. Because at the time there were multiple threads mocking trans posters in the newly reopened FYAD that were being completely ignored and two of the people that harassed people in QCS were made mods and another clearly didn't actually want to take bigotry seriously. We were loving hurting bad, and still are. Also many of those people were given bans+30s meaning eventually some of those people are going to come back and are going to continue causing problems for the trans community on SA, and that wasn't and isn't acceptable.
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Jan 1, 2020 18:36
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Mandoric posted:There's no answer other than for problems to be dealt with before it comes to "ban the angry people so the fires go out". Once the fires are lit, and I understand that your personal circumstances mean you're basically summoned only when you see the smoke, you're stuck with the irreconcilable contradiction that it's bad for the forum that they keep burning but they were also probably lit by people mad about something that was bad for the forum.
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Jan 1, 2020 18:36
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Lowtax posted:I was banning people who were intentionally misrepresenting the things I said, and cherrypicking quotes to make me appear transphobic. I made it clear I was speaking about ONE SINGLE GROUP OF PEOPLE. I should be able to criticize one group of people without that being twisted into suddenly I'm a transphobe. I've been in two completely lovely marriages but I'm not a misogynist. I just really do not like those two people. Hey, your posts seem to be getting angrier which is understandable but counterproductive. A step back might be in order, and you might want to seriously consider elevating the mods that the affected posters have a lot of faith in, like LightningKnight.
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