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In my limited experience, entry level candidates don't have much leverage to ask for more salary (and definitely not more PTO if it's an established company, that is likely fixed based on years of industry experience). You do likely have room to ask for a bigger signing bonus though.
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Jan 2, 2020 03:30
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Russian Bear posted:What I am really looking for is reaffirmation that the likely hood of Company A freaking out and rescinding my offer is close to nil as I'm new to negotiating in this field. Don't make any excuses or anything. Do your market research, and if the market in any way justifies $57k, just say, "It looks like $57k is the market average for this position. I'd be willing to move forward immediately at that number." If they counter any higher than $50k, you won. If they hold firm at $50, you can ask for more PTO or whatever, but if $50k is the market rate, don't push too hard and just take it.
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Jan 2, 2020 03:59
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Have any of you had to sell a property you currently live in prior to relocating for a new job? Would employers make accommodations if I need time to sell before moving? Or is it advisable to move to the job first, pay rent there using my initial pay (since I have zero savings), and hire a realtor to do the whole selling process while I'm completely absent?
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Jan 2, 2020 04:58
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Dumb Lowtax posted:Have any of you had to sell a property you currently live in prior to relocating for a new job? Would employers make accommodations if I need time to sell before moving? Or is it advisable to move to the job first, pay rent there using my initial pay (since I have zero savings), and hire a realtor to do the whole selling process while I'm completely absent? Ime that should be part of the sign on bonus negotiation, not on needing to wait before moving but on facilitating the sale remotely. E: I haven't done it but I have a number of coworkers who have
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Jan 2, 2020 05:05
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evobatman posted:So what do they get in return from you for lower prices? I have multiple suppliers to choose from, and although fairly rare I do occasionally work in the same area, so my business, and my repeat business. I mean you can ask any supplier that, and they will always cut deals with contractors who have repeat business. It just so happens I don't work in the same locality year after year so
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Jan 2, 2020 08:22
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Hoshi posted:but on facilitating the sale remotely. Thanks, also what does this part mean? The company hires me a realtor? Or they just pay me a bigger bonus to hire my own? More difficult scenario: What if taking the job is contingent on me being able to sell the house? If there are no buyers, I'm stuck staying in the same city after all. That's I assume when it gets really complicated. Anyone heard of that predicament? I wouldn't even be able to fully move my stuff *out* of the house to the new job until the sale, because I can't commit to packing up everything to a new city until the house is sold. Being away from a house full of my stuff while a realtor tries to work around it to sell is awkward, at the very least. Is it common?
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Jan 2, 2020 09:05
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Dumb Lowtax posted:Thanks, also what does this part mean? The company hires me a realtor? Or they just pay me a bigger bonus to hire my own? How they handle it will be company specific, I asked people who have gone thru it and they normally found their own. For your other questions it's really hard to say. If it's possible to work from where you are now until you sell your place that would be doable. I've never heard of a company accepting a contingency on someone accepting a job. Another option is accepting but pulling out if you can't find a buyer in time, burns bridges tho. The best way to approach it is to ask the company what assistance they'll give you for relocation and assess whether the opportunity is worth the financial risk. That's a lovely situation tho, sorry you're in it! Tldr: see what the company will help with and assess whether it's worth the risk. The worst they can say is they won't give you anything, but they presumably want you to work for them.
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Jan 2, 2020 21:52
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Hey thread- I’m looking for some advice. I’m trying to go part time and, in doing so, cut out a big daycare bill for the next few years. I do IT work in a moderately niche field. My current employer is pretty great- flexible, good bennies, manager, commute, may be in line for a dece title change in a year or two. My manager is open to cutting me to between 24-32hrs, but has to pass it by the higher ups in mid-January. There is a chance, albeit low, that they don’t approve the reduction. I interviewed at another place as a backup and they are hungry for me. Like, <48hrs from submitting application to scheduling a manager interview, and <24hrs from interview to reference request. I’m trying to stall them at this point so my manager can get an answer to me. The position has been open for a while so I’m not too worried about them passing on me. I do really like my current employer, but I want to see what this other one will give me. There’s a good amount of overlap between the two employers, and I may need to collaboratively work with the other organization in the future- so what are some constructive ways to slow down the HR process and/or pressure my boss for a prompt answer?
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Jan 3, 2020 14:03
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I'd get an offer first and see if it's worth changing for. They might be moving fast but it'll still take a bit of time to draft an offer, have you ask for an extra 10k/year, them revise the offer and then you tell them you want to give your previous employer 2-4 weeks notice to wrap up projects. You'll know whether or not your part time proposal is in the cards before you have to give notice.
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Jan 3, 2020 14:12
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Hello, I have read through the OP and I have one question. What about when you're interviewing for a different position at the same company? I may have an opportunity to interview for a different position in the same department I currently work. They already know my current pay so that chip is off the table.
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Jan 4, 2020 12:14
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Mambo No. 5 posted:Hello, I have read through the OP and I have one question. What about when you're interviewing for a different position at the same company? I may have an opportunity to interview for a different position in the same department I currently work. They already know my current pay so that chip is off the table. You have zero leverage with your current employer without an offer from someone else. BATNA. Always BATNA. Yours is the job you have. They have all the power. On another note HEY THREAD: Has anyone here done a Porters 5 Forces analysis on this kind of thing? I mean changing jobs?
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Jan 5, 2020 06:44
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Ultimate Mango posted:You have zero leverage with your current employer without an offer from someone else. Updated OP 
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Jan 6, 2020 18:41
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Giving my notice tomorrow! No joke: the new job has a way better commute, way better pay, and actual advancement opportunities (and is itself a promotion). As far as getting the 'pay' part up there: I was ok at negotiation before, but reading everyone's honest perspectives empowered me to negotiate much more confidently and effectively. This thread's a great resource for everyone, no matter how good they are at speaking. Thanks to those brave enough to post!
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Jan 7, 2020 02:15
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Mr Newsman posted:I'd get an offer first and see if it's worth changing for. Turns out it’s worth changing for and my current employer will likely not be able/willing to compete. Not what I was expecting, but it’ll be a pretty big lifestyle improvement that will set me up for a massive salary increase in ~5 years.
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Jan 8, 2020 00:27
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BadSamaritan posted:Turns out it’s worth changing for and my current employer will likely not be able/willing to compete. Usually when companies dangle a "huge increase in x years" in front of you, you're better off switching jobs to get an even bigger increase. There are of course exceptions to this.
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Jan 8, 2020 09:33
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LochNessMonster posted:Usually when companies dangle a "huge increase in x years" in front of you, you're better off switching jobs to get an even bigger increase. There are of course exceptions to this. Oh, they didn’t dangle that in front of me and I don’t trust that sort of thing unless I have it in writing. My hourly rate increases a lot at the new position while I make the desired switch to part time. When/if I switch back to full time in a few years I’ll be in a better position to demand a similar (or higher) hourly rate with more hours. Moving between jobs is basically the only way to get significant raises or schedule changes and it’s kind of depressing watching my current employer throw away a few years of investment in a difficult-to-hire/train position.
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Jan 8, 2020 15:29
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BadSamaritan posted:it’s kind of depressing watching my current employer throw away a few years of investment in a difficult-to-hire/train position. not your problem in ANY dimension apart from, if you did not punish your current employer by moving to a new job and making them incur the loss for their bad decision making, those employers who DO recognize investment won't have a competitive advantage, and so you'd be tacitly enabling that bad behavior
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Jan 9, 2020 17:20
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Internal job changing is top of my mind. I have a friend who is being approached for jobs in at least five departments where he works (he is a HiPo who is widely recognized and overdue for a promotion). Dude will do well by not saying much and getting competing offers. I’m four months in at my company, have made it through a few rounds for an internal promotion, and just got a call from another VP basically offering me yet another different role. For the out of the blue opportunity, I did name a number, but did so knowing it would protect my current base and give me significantly more upside (otherwise they would have offered me a lateral with less base). For the other one, it would be a full level up with more everything. Even if I don’t get either of these, I still have a great job so my BATNA is solid.
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Jan 10, 2020 06:14
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Ultimate Mango posted:Internal job changing is top of my mind. Is this a sales type position? Having a promotion on the table after 4 months in seems exceptional, even when you hear during the interview phase that a promotion would be over some hill the conventional wisdom is it usually doesn't materialize.
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Jan 10, 2020 06:33
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Inner Light posted:Is this a sales type position? Having a promotion on the table after 4 months in seems exceptional, even when you hear during the interview phase that a promotion would be over some hill the conventional wisdom is it usually doesn't materialize. My situation is rather unique. For the straight up promotion: If I were not in my current role at my current company, I would be an excellent external candidate. My skill set and breadth of experience is unique, and some exceptions were made despite my short tenure (it was discussed as a part of my interviewing and hiring process). If this were just a courtesy I would not have made it through the number of rounds I have so far. For the other role it’s a new position that doesn’t exist today at my company, and would move me into the sales org (but it’s a little nuanced and complex, and there is some stuff that isn’t figured out yet in how it world work). It’s fun being in a high growth organization at the right time.
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Jan 10, 2020 07:49
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Inner Light posted:Is this a sales type position? Having a promotion on the table after 4 months in seems exceptional. I’ve seen it happen lots outside of sales, all it takes is an executive taking a shining to you. It’s usually not been the highest performers though, more often the most charismatic/best networkers.
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Jan 10, 2020 13:46
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Eric the Mauve posted:I’ve seen it happen lots outside of sales, all it takes is an executive taking a shining to you. My team is a little weird. Most of us are Director/VP level individual contributors with a lot of leeway both do our jobs and help with other projects and departments. By design we are all kind of special/top people in our areas. I have also seen the executive game players and the weird one off situations and the lucky salesperson get a 300% bluebird and get promoted.
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Jan 11, 2020 06:19
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I just want to thank the advice in the thread. I'm one month into my new job with a 76% increase in pay from my last role. Couldn't be happier! Proactivity works.
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Jan 15, 2020 21:47
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I’m not handling negotiations so much now because I moved to a pure P&L ownership role, but I had a typical case pop up the other day that a colleague asked me to look at, and I’m sharing a few details in case it’s of interest. One of our suppliers is doing an acceptably good job for us, at an acceptable rate. As we expand into new cities, one of their competitors has won some of our business from our local managers by offering us a much better rate. Service levels appear so far to be equivalent. The nature of the goods being supplied is not such that we need to pick just one supplier. We believe we are a material customer of the first supplier, but not the second. It’s coming up to time to review our contract with the first supplier. I would normally advise my colleagues to try to keep a friendly relationship with, and give business to, both suppliers so as to promote competition going forwards. I would also suggest them to push for better terms from the first on renewal to bring them into line with market. Obviously assume that we have done our homework on both suppliers and understand the assumptions that they have about how much business we will give them etc. My question: has anyone here had a different approach to a similar situation (eg, seek to extract even better terms by picking just one supplier)? To me it seems like you would always have less leverage and get a worse deal that way, but maybe it’s sometimes worth it?
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Jan 15, 2020 22:43
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I wouldn’t entirely drop a supplier unless they totally screwed the pooch on something. IIRC Amazon/Wal*Mart/etc always keep some business trickling to all their fulfillment partners (USPS, FedEx, DHL, etc) for exactly the reasons you pointed out. If you get terms you don’t like you can shift some amount of your business to their competitor. At the same time the increased business to the second supplier is provided with the caveat that you expect their quality to increase. Not only does this keep both suppliers reasonably on their toes it also prevents you from being totally boned should some black swan event obliterate the supplier you decided to go with. Full disclosure: I don’t handle anything remotely close to what you’re talking about in my day to day life. This is only from me being a nerd and reading about the business practices of larger organizations.
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Jan 15, 2020 22:57
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Beefeater1980 posted:I’m not handling negotiations so much now because I moved to a pure P&L ownership role, but I had a typical case pop up the other day that a colleague asked me to look at, and I’m sharing a few details in case it’s of interest. This is what our supply chain had done. We went from 7 consultants to 2, a region based construction contract with only one provider per, so material goes through one company (several approved vendors though that they can order from). Our SC claims a lot of savings and efficiencies. Some are true and some are not. There was a lot of completion for the contacts ($700M-$1B cap expend per year).
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Jan 15, 2020 23:12
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Lizzy posted:I just want to thank the advice in the thread. I'm one month into my new job with a 76% increase in pay from my last role. Awesome, well done! One more for the list of great success from this thread.
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Jan 16, 2020 01:34
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Thanks everyone who encouraged me to negotiate on a fresh out of college position. It was the scariest email I've ever sent, but resulted in a couple extra thousand being added to my offer.
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Jan 16, 2020 04:41
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Russian Bear posted:Thanks everyone who encouraged me to negotiate on a fresh out of college position. It was the scariest email I've ever sent, but resulted in a couple extra thousand being added to my offer. May you learn to bask in the glory of compound interest (or accelerated college debt service! Whatever floats your boat) Congrats
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Jan 16, 2020 06:25
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Beefeater1980 posted:I’m not handling negotiations so much now because I moved to a pure P&L ownership role, but I had a typical case pop up the other day that a colleague asked me to look at, and I’m sharing a few details in case it’s of interest. I don't handle such negotiations, but I've seen it a couple times where a new supplier offers a low rate as a loss leader hoping you'll gently caress up the relationship with your current supplier so they can raise rates later.
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Jan 17, 2020 04:36
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Dik Hz posted:Being sole-sourced is a potentially existential threat to your business. If you completely shut off a supplier, you'll pay the rear end in a top hat tax to bring them back in. Your instincts are 100% correct. Keep both lines open in a 70-30 model and shift as necessary. It depends on how much you do a year. The suppliers who do not get an MSA with us still come by every six months maintaining relationships so when the RFP comes out in a few years they are in a good bid position. If the OP goes to one supplier it sould be a 3-5 year deal with locked in rates with specific escalators. I would still probably have 2 suppliers though if I was in his shoes.
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Jan 17, 2020 06:04
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I think I've finally developed the backbone to stop saying numbers to people in positions to hire me. I assume that advice applies double to recruiters, right? I don't see why it wouldn't, but I've noticed that recruiters are sometimes even more insistent on getting a number from you, to the point where I had one flat out tell me that he wouldn't even try to get me an interview with a company without a salary range. I stopped talking to him. Does working with a recruiter put up a red flag, just in general? In my experience, they tend to be flaky people who promise the world, maybe get you a 20 minute telephone interview, then never talk to you again. I get the impression that they're for more desperate, entry level people. Is that how a potential hire from a recruiter comes across?
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Jan 17, 2020 13:14
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mekyabetsu posted:I think I've finally developed the backbone to stop saying numbers to people in positions to hire me. I assume that advice applies double to recruiters, right? I don't see why it wouldn't, but I've noticed that recruiters are sometimes even more insistent on getting a number from you, to the point where I had one flat out tell me that he wouldn't even try to get me an interview with a company without a salary range. I stopped talking to him. If you've ever read Freakonomics, the perversions of incentives that apply to Real Estate agents also apply to recruiters. Recruiters are paid by some company so that their primary contributors still focus on primarily contributing, and so they aren't paying salary for HR people. Recruiters get paid by the hire, so the company gives the recruiter a bunch of criteria, including a price, and the recruiter tries to fill as many roles per unit time as possible for all their clients. Consequently the recruiter will have poor understanding of your skills, poor understanding of the needs of the business, and mainly be trying to make a fit happen so they can get paid. If you don't name a number, they don't know how well you fit in the box they're supposed to fill. If you don't name a number and you're outside the employer's price range, then that recruiter has wasted their customer (the employer)'s time. I discourage working with a recruiter because of all of this, and, it is highly likely that a substantial portion of the people you will be working with are the kind of people hired by recruiters: the kind of person who names a number first. There are exceptions that have been discussed where very specific and unique skillsets are located by specialist recruiters. If you work in performing underwater manatee surgery, maybe a recruiter makes sense. If you're hunting for a conventional office job, a recruiter is not optimizing your return on employment.
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Jan 17, 2020 18:55
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There is an important distinction between a third party “headhunter” recruiter and an internal recruiter that actually works for a given company. We are almost always referring to the third party kind of recruiter in this thread, and everything above applies. They are often a useless middleman unless they deal with a niche specialty. Internal recruiters are still incentivized to fill positions, but they are usually much more aligned with the business and are held more accountable for the quality of their candidates. While they are still called recruiters, they are really just representatives of the company and should be interacted with as such.
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Jan 17, 2020 19:44
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With third party recruiters I honestly think it's best to just give an extremely high "sticker price" number, and when they say "The company can't possibly go that high" you say "Sorry to hear that, bye" and hang up. The upside to this strategy is that all but the most hopelessly slopsucking recruiters will stop calling you, and once in a great while you might get surprised when someone agrees to your astronomical demand (likely because you're currently more dramatically underpaid than you realize) e: Also it's good "confidently saying a very high number" practice for when you need to do it in a real interview/offer negotiation Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Jan 18, 2020 |
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Jan 18, 2020 00:07
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Someone once said "never say no just name a ridiculous price" Probably should not over apply that but good spirit.
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Jan 19, 2020 01:49
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Eric the Mauve posted:With third party recruiters I honestly think it's best to just give an extremely high "sticker price" number, and when they say "The company can't possibly go that high" you say "Sorry to hear that, bye" and hang up. This is exactly what I do for pushy people who won't give you a band first, and this post matches my experience. They either gently caress off, or every now and then you get lucky. My baseline for pushy people is a $10-15k raise from where I am now, and say I want to move up from that so you can always 'settle' and be okay. The one thing to keep in mind is if a prospective employer does a background check that returns your income history.
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Jan 19, 2020 04:02
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Xguard86 posted:Someone once said "never say no just name a ridiculous price" You can play it a few ways. Ask for a million bucks with a straight face if you can. Or ask for something that is just on the very edge of sanity for whatever job or industry you are in. Enough for someone to wonder if you are really serious, and if you are how good you use be to be worth it. THE MACHO MAN posted:This is exactly what I do for pushy people who won't give you a band first, and this post matches my experience. They either gently caress off, or every now and then you get lucky. My baseline for pushy people is a $10-15k raise from where I am now, and say I want to move up from that so you can always 'settle' and be okay. I don’t think they can look at or consider or ask about salary in some places. California at least has some crazy crazy rules. And don’t short change yourself with a number. For many jobs and people and industries, $15k raise isn’t so tough to make happen.
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Jan 19, 2020 05:43
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Yeah it very much varies state by state. NJ has exceptions if you volunteer it, if your employer has a presence in another state, if it's part of their 3rd party background check, they can't use it against you (lol). It's just something to consider. And yeah, it was more an example than about the numbers. I use different amounts depending on the type of job, where it is, etc
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Jan 19, 2020 07:00
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Ultimate Mango posted:You can play it a few ways. Ask for a million bucks with a straight face if you can. Or ask for something that is just on the very edge of sanity for whatever job or industry you are in. Enough for someone to wonder if you are really serious, and if you are how good you use be to be worth it. In other words, gently caress you, pay me.
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Jan 19, 2020 23:20
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