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Rey: I'm Rey Old Woman: Rey who? Rey: 
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Jan 10, 2020 19:49
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Jan 10, 2020 19:49
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I always took Luke's choice to redeem Vader as being not necessarily a denunciation of the Jedi code but more an attempt at reforming that code. Like there's some good stuff in there. Pacifism. Defending the weak. Being selfless. But obviously the bits about emotion being bad and not being able to love are huge flaws that needed to be eliminated from the order and I assumed post Return of the Jedi Luke would do just that with the new order of Jedi he trained.
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Jan 10, 2020 19:57
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Mozi posted:Rey Sond'etre 
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Jan 10, 2020 20:05
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Im ray hahha
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Jan 10, 2020 20:27
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Ginette Reno posted:I always took Luke's choice to redeem Vader as being not necessarily a denunciation of the Jedi code but more an attempt at reforming that code. Luke doesn’t know any Jedi code, which is why it’s so weird to me that the sequels seem to have reinvented him as hidebound and obsessed with the legacy of the Jedi from the beginning. The first teaching he receives from a Jedi is that he must do what he feels is right: the lessons Ben teaches him are focused on making him trust his instincts even if they seem ridiculous. When later teachings from Ghost Ben or Yoda contradict this principle, Luke ignores them and sticks with his gut, even if it means risking his life.
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Jan 10, 2020 20:28
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The "Jedi code" stuff is tacked on bullshit. In terms of the original trilogy mastering the force is just a nebulous interpretation of enlightenment and being centered and mindful and such, whereas the ideas of having no emotion or love or whatever came from Lucas's crazy rear end when he went unchecked due to him not understanding human interaction and probably just saying "oh they're like space monks and monks like, don't gently caress or whatever right?" when he was scribbling the prequels out on a legal pad.
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Jan 10, 2020 20:31
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The prequel Jedi being down on love directly flows from Yoda and Ghost Ben being bloodthirsty weirdoes who believe their good friend Anakin is dead to them and completely irredeemable
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Jan 10, 2020 20:32
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Gumdrop Larry posted:The "Jedi code" stuff is tacked on bullshit. In terms of the original trilogy mastering the force is just a nebulous interpretation of enlightenment and being centered and mindful and such, whereas the ideas of having no emotion or love or whatever came from Lucas's crazy rear end when he went unchecked due to him not understanding human interaction and probably just saying "oh they're like space monks and monks like, don't gently caress or whatever right?" when he was scribbling the prequels out on a legal pad. The Force that can be told of is not the Living Force.
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Jan 10, 2020 20:35
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Don't forget Yoda and Ben telling Luke he should let his friends eat poo poo because he needs to focus on getting better at lifting rocks.
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Jan 10, 2020 20:35
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skasion posted:The prequel Jedi being down on love directly flows from Yoda and Ghost Ben being bloodthirsty weirdoes who believe their good friend Anakin is dead to them and completely irredeemable One pretty glaring discrepancy though is that Lucas was also all about the force being black and white, with real literal good and evil. It doesn't jive with wanting a more nuanced idea of the Jedi getting too rigid and detached and not allowing for any wiggle room; You can't really present it like that but then also say oh there's no middle ground with this stuff.
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Jan 10, 2020 20:36
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Are there Force-ticklish people?
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Jan 10, 2020 20:40
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Sydin posted:Don't forget Yoda and Ben telling Luke he should let his friends eat poo poo because he needs to focus on getting better at lifting rocks. My goblin dude even admits "help them you could.*" He and Ghost Ben are absolutely conspiring to make the boy into a weapon of assassination to do what they couldn't/didn't. *I mean ultimately he doesn't. Lando's pang of conscious is enough to save Leia and Chewy, and his arrival jeopardizes their escape.
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Jan 10, 2020 20:42
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DON'T ASK QUESTIONS. CONSUME PRODUCT. THEN GET EXCITED FOR NEXT PRODUCT. Sydin posted:Don't forget Yoda and Ben telling Luke he should let his friends eat poo poo because he needs to focus on getting better at lifting rocks. I fear that people take this way too literally, given the JJ-verse and Rey's supreme rock lifting. Jedi shouldn't care about their friends eating poo poo, because they're trying to prevent the whole galaxy from eating poo poo. Luke giving in for the sake of his friends ends up causing severe grimdark, just as Yoda predicted. It's only a thin promise of hope that gets us to the third movie. Owlbear Camus posted:My goblin dude even admits "help them you could.*" He and Ghost Ben are absolutely conspiring to make the boy into a weapon of assassination to do what they couldn't/didn't. ...or he does save some of his friends at the cost of almost loving over the entire galaxy. Which is exactly what Yoda warned him about. You don't need another level of analysis. The exact literal things the characters say and mean, also transpire in the film.
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Jan 10, 2020 20:50
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Gumdrop Larry posted:One pretty glaring discrepancy though is that Lucas was also all about the force being black and white, with real literal good and evil. It doesn't jive with wanting a more nuanced idea of the Jedi getting too rigid and detached and not allowing for any wiggle room; You can't really present it like that but then also say oh there's no middle ground with this stuff. Not sure I understand what you mean by this. The original trilogy’s Jedi are flawed, imperfect figures. Luke must learn from them, but also surpass their teaching and find his own way. They’re not truly evil people, but they don’t live up to Luke’s high ideals. They’re well-meaning in a sense, but they’re manipulative liars who condemned Vader to death because they can’t believe that there is any moral conflict within him or that they can save him (which is why they failed to save him).
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Jan 10, 2020 20:58
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Sydin posted:Don't forget Yoda and Ben telling Luke he should let his friends eat poo poo because he needs to focus on getting better at lifting rocks. Yoda was right, Luke ended up losing his hand and Lando would have helped Leia and Chewbacca no matter what. The only thing Luke did by going to Cloud City was bring them R2-D2, who found out from the city computer that the hyperdrive of the Falcon had been disabled and thus enabled them to escape from the Imperial fleet. If Vader had been trying to kill Luke instead of freeze him in carbonite, there would have only been 1 1/2 Star Wars movies
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Jan 10, 2020 21:14
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revwinnebago posted:Jedi shouldn't care about their friends eating poo poo, because they're trying to prevent the whole galaxy from eating poo poo. Luke giving in for the sake of his friends ends up causing severe grimdark, just as Yoda predicted. It's only a thin promise of hope that gets us to the third movie. What Ben and Yoda actually predicted is that if Luke confronted Vader, he would fall to the dark side. They were wrong. They were also all like “there is another” when he left, despite the fact that Lucas later retconned the “another” to be...one of the people who was already in the Empire’s clutches that Luke was trying to rescue. Whoops.
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Jan 10, 2020 21:16
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skasion posted:Not sure I understand what you mean by this. The original trilogy’s Jedi are flawed, imperfect figures. Luke must learn from them, but also surpass their teaching and find his own way. They’re not truly evil people, but they don’t live up to Luke’s high ideals. They’re well-meaning in a sense, but they’re manipulative liars who condemned Vader to death because they can’t believe that there is any moral conflict within him or that they can save him (which is why they failed to save him). What I'm going for is that there's an inconsistency in how the force and emotion and light versus dark are presented when you take in stuff as a whole and try to link up everything outside of the original trilogy. The prequels leaned into the idea that the Jedi were too obsessed with the mentality of being weird aloof ascetics and disconnecting from their humanity, which does fall in line with Obi-Wan and Yoda being close-minded in the OT sure. But at the same time the prequels never actually condemn this all that much, and make a point of going yep emotion and love and humanity are bad look at how it hosed up Anakin. The Jedi weren't making bad moves because their viewpoint was wrong, but because Palpatine was clouding their judgement and diminishing their ability to use the force. See the clip of Lucas talking about Anakin and Padme giving into their emotions and suffering the consequences, alongside there being zero effort in conveying the idea of emotions and interpersonal connections being good, but maybe you just shouldn't let those things get too out of control. So again, there's this weird juxtaposition of the OT moral being about sticking with your convictions and positive emotions and being compassionate versus Lucas's notion of things in the Star Wars universe/regarding the force being starkly black and white and emotions in fact being very bad period. It all works when you keep it ambiguous and stick to the basic framework presented in the OT where you've got a couple crusty old dudes who are in fact wise but also too set in their ways and can't see that there is a third path available, but falls apart once you tack on the prequels, sequels, and anything else that tries to more concretely define stuff.
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Jan 10, 2020 21:24
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Obi-Wan: Send me to kill Sheeve, I cannot kill Anakin. Also Obi-Wan, five minutes later: Welp I've brutally maimed Anakin and now he's lying five feet from me burning to death next to lava. Maybe I could grab him and try to redeem him, or at least end his suffering... nah, actually gently caress that guy. Eat poo poo, Sith Lord!
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Jan 10, 2020 21:26
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Gumdrop Larry posted:What I'm going for is that there's an inconsistency in how the force and emotion and light versus dark are presented when you take in stuff as a whole and try to link up everything outside of the original trilogy. The prequels leaned into the idea that the Jedi were too obsessed with the mentality of being weird aloof ascetics and disconnecting from their humanity, which does fall in line with Obi-Wan and Yoda being close-minded in the OT sure. But at the same time the prequels never actually condemn this all that much, and make a point of going yep emotion and love and humanity are bad look at how it hosed up Anakin. The Jedi weren't making bad moves because their viewpoint was wrong, but because Palpatine was clouding their judgement and diminishing their ability to use the force. See the clip of Lucas talking about Anakin and Padme giving into their emotions and suffering the consequences, alongside there being zero effort in conveying the idea of emotions and interpersonal connections being good, but maybe you just shouldn't let those things get too out of control. So again, there's this weird juxtaposition of the OT moral being about sticking with your convictions and positive emotions and being compassionate versus Lucas's notion of things in the Star Wars universe/regarding the force being starkly black and white and emotions in fact being very bad period. I think the prequel Jedi are portrayed as having the wrong viewpoint. Simply put, in the prequels the Jedi steal a kid from his mother and immediately start teaching him that his (completely justifiable) feeling of fear and anger about this is wrong. They supply him with an emotionally inaccessible father figure who lectures him constantly about how he needs to improve (by being more repressed). Because of this lack of love from the Order that he’s devoted his life to, he’s driven to surreptitious emotional dependence on others and eventually comes to consider the Jedi as his enemies because they stand between him and the relationships he wants to have. The point is that the Jedi’s moral stance against emotional attachment to others is unnatural, it relies on indoctrination from infancy to work and the one exception they make eventually freaks the gently caress out and mass murders children. Love (and emotion in general) isn’t what ruins Anakin: what ruins him is the teaching of Palpatine that his love for Padme is not enough by itself, that he needs more power and control to keep it going indefinitely.
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Jan 10, 2020 21:59
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skasion posted:I think the prequel Jedi are portrayed as having the wrong viewpoint. Simply put, in the prequels the Jedi steal a kid from his mother and immediately start teaching him that his (completely justifiable) feeling of fear and anger about this is wrong. They supply him with an emotionally inaccessible father figure who lectures him constantly about how he needs to improve (by being more repressed). Because of this lack of love from the Order that he’s devoted his life to, he’s driven to surreptitious emotional dependence on others and eventually comes to consider the Jedi as his enemies because they stand between him and the relationships he wants to have. So does this mean star wars is good?
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Jan 10, 2020 23:43
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He wants to gently caress Rey and Lando telling his daughter wink wink lol I wonder where you family is seemed like what they were angling for.
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Jan 10, 2020 23:45
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SHISHKABOB posted:So does this mean star wars is good? No
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Jan 10, 2020 23:45
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Extra lols since actual children today don't give a gently caress about Star Wars.
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Jan 10, 2020 23:57
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It's not as though the Jedi are wrong about the dangers of personal attachments, exactly. But yeah, the pendulum definitely swang way to hard in the other direction
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Jan 11, 2020 00:09
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Applewhite posted:lol I just was reminded that we never heard what Finn was supposed to confess to Rey. The movie even rubs our face in it with all the scenes of Poe asking about it. I can just imagine Abrams thinking, "Fans are going to be debating about what Finn was going to say for years, it'll be one of the greatest mysteries of Star Wars." I imagine he finally relented in interviews with the "he was force sensitive" bit because too many disgruntled people were like "don't give us that poo poo, JJ!" Personally I think it was gonna be "I love you," because what the hell else would it be.
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Jan 11, 2020 00:21
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SidneyIsTheKiller posted:Personally I think it was gonna be "I love you," because what the hell else would it be. "Do you think Finn likes me likes me? Can you ask?"
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Jan 11, 2020 00:23
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There's evidence in favor of both and against both. Ultimately I think it was written ambiguously on purpose and if the movie had definitely answered one way or the other it would only further highlight how a bunch of the foreshadowing didn't make sense.
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Jan 11, 2020 00:27
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Isometric Bacon posted:Those videos of people's reactions to Empire strikes back is fascinating. That world just does not exist anymore. In the pre-video days a hit movie could run in theaters for over a year (sometimes it might go from one theater in town to another - multiplexes weren't as ubiquitous) and re-issues were common. Star Wars had already seen at least one re-release in 1979 by then. And yeah, if you were a big fan of a movie you were more inclined to go see it again because that was the only way. Another thing I like about old video footage from the 70s/80s is seeing all the ethnic minorities. If we just went by what was in the movies and TV shows of the day you'd think the world was just 98% white people. Hell, "NOW with a black guy!" was basically a low-key advertised feature of The Empire Strikes Back, that's how barren it was.
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Jan 11, 2020 00:54
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Oh yeah, I expected to see all white dudes with glasses in the queue for Star Wars there were some, but I was pleased to see 70’s disco Latinos and black guys, and the black lady who was dragged there by her nerd boyfriend, and just regular girls, etc
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Jan 11, 2020 00:58
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Gianthogweed posted:The emergence of the youtube critic that loves to poo poo on these movies is a new generation of these old school stuffy critics. We've become so over-saturated with these big budget blockbusters (mostly thanks to Disney) that even the fans are getting sick of them, and making GBS threads on movies like Star Wars is the new cool thing. Not that the new trilogy doesn't deserve it, but it's happening. Ah, combining ostentatious displays of intellectual vanity with fanboy entitlement complex, what could possibly go wrong?
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Jan 11, 2020 01:09
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I see kids with Star Wars poo poo all the time. Dunno why folks are on the lol kids don’t like star war train.
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Jan 11, 2020 01:09
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"Rey........ I've been diagnosed with a terminal case of Ligma"
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Jan 11, 2020 01:38
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Captain Phasma’s lesser known sister, Lt Ligma
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Jan 11, 2020 01:39
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appropriatemetaphor posted:I see kids with Star Wars poo poo all the time. Dunno why folks are on the lol kids don’t like star war train. A lot of goons aren't allowed around children. With good reason.
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Jan 11, 2020 01:44
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appropriatemetaphor posted:I see kids with Star Wars poo poo all the time. Dunno why folks are on the lol kids don’t like star war train. This thread is more or less a "let's dunk on Star Wars" attraction and any perceived chink in its armor is fair game for it to get picked on. Everyone has different expectations for a new mainline entry (even if such expectations are "don't reverse plotpoints from the original trilogy" or "don't get made at all") and we just got a movie that decided not to try to meet any of them so people are in a mood. Some of the peanut gallery comments may not be totally fair, but hey it's Part 9 of a movie series from the 70s and it's still one of the biggest movies of the year, I think Star Wars is big enough to take a hit. It's probably true that Star Wars has become a "dad franchise" like James Bond or Star Trek where even new fans mostly get into the property through being exposed to it by their parents, but that's to be expected of a 40-year old cultural product.
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Jan 11, 2020 01:59
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skasion posted:Not sure I understand what you mean by this. The original trilogy’s Jedi are flawed, imperfect figures. Luke must learn from them, but also surpass their teaching and find his own way. They’re not truly evil people, but they don’t live up to Luke’s high ideals. They’re well-meaning in a sense, but they’re manipulative liars who condemned Vader to death because they can’t believe that there is any moral conflict within him or that they can save him (which is why they failed to save him). Tbf I don’t think I’d really want to save a mass child-murderer either.
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Jan 11, 2020 02:49
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Applewhite posted:Tbf I don’t think I’d really want to save a mass child-murderer either. Well that’s why you aren’t the galactic wizard knight messiah, isn’t it
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Jan 11, 2020 03:36
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skasion posted:Well that’s why you aren’t the galactic wizard knight messiah, isn’t it Aka THE LAST LASER MASTER
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Jan 11, 2020 04:25
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:"Rey........ I've been diagnosed with a terminal case of Ligma" Old lady: what's Ligma? Rey:... Ligma Skywalker
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Jan 11, 2020 05:14
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