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I think the thing that stands out most about Okada to me is just his timing. Like real simple stuff, but from when to hit his moves to his kickouts he can make rather ordinary things seem really dramatic and engaging. He's convinced me it's over on more near falls than anyone else and he can still make the dropkick he does every match a genuine surprise when he has to.
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Jan 11, 2020 09:50
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Low Desert Punk posted:has alberto el patron ever had a great match? Looking at his WON ratings, his best rated matches are multimans, ladder matches and assorted gimmick matches, and Rumbles, with his highest rated straight singles match being the Edge match at Mania 27, which got 3.5 stars.
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Jan 11, 2020 10:52
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Vince obviously only hired Alberto because he was tall.
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Jan 11, 2020 10:54
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Alberto's enzuigiri was a thing of absolute art, but despite what WWE2K15 told me, you can't just make a match off nothing but enzuigiris.
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Jan 11, 2020 13:59
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5l0X3sAKUY
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Jan 11, 2020 17:28
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If nothing else, Berto was really good at facial expressions. That time he was about to clock Edge with a guitar, was all  and then suddenly  when he nailed him was pretty great
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Jan 11, 2020 17:31
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I think the only Del Rio match people still talk about is the Del Rio/Ziggler double turn match.
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Jan 11, 2020 17:49
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Alexander Hamilton posted:I think the only Del Rio match people still talk about is the Del Rio/Ziggler double turn match. That was a really good match. Del rio was brutal
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Jan 11, 2020 18:52
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Alexander Hamilton posted:I think the only Del Rio match people still talk about is the Del Rio/Ziggler double turn match. It was beautiful. Del Rio's facial expression as the crowd turned on him was like "lol gently caress you guys, I'm still gonna win" and he kicked Ziggler's concussed head in.
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Jan 11, 2020 20:42
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If I remember right, that match was right around when I first started watching WWE and wrestling as a whole, and boy did it mislead me as to the quality of what I was gonna be watching for the next few years.
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Jan 11, 2020 21:58
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I loved Del Rio's theme and I like his finish. That's about all I like about him.
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Jan 11, 2020 22:36
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El Gallinero Gros posted:I loved Del Rio's theme and I like his finish. The goofy rear end double stomp spot that looks bad when even talented juniors do it and looked worse and more fake every time ADR did?
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Jan 11, 2020 22:38
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Gaz-L posted:The goofy rear end double stomp spot that looks bad when even talented juniors do it and looked worse and more fake every time ADR did? No, the armbreaker thing where he applies it from a rolling standing position I agree the stomp usually looked bad.
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Jan 11, 2020 22:40
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The stomp was awful. It was a lovely "recipient holds themselves in an awkward, completely useless position for no reason other than to get hit" move.
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Jan 12, 2020 00:58
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Watching OSW Review episodes and why the hell was Earl Hebner considered such an amazing referee? He's constantly trying to get himself over. He physically interferes with wrestlers like kicking their hands off ropes and such, he ruins iconic camera shots like Razor with the two IC belts at the top of the ladder at Wrestlemania X, he has that telegraphed slow count when it's actually the finish of the match, etc.
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Jan 12, 2020 15:13
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Pope Corky the IX posted:Watching OSW Review episodes and why the hell was Earl Hebner considered such an amazing referee? He's constantly trying to get himself over. He physically interferes with wrestlers like kicking their hands off ropes and such, he ruins iconic camera shots like Razor with the two IC belts at the top of the ladder at Wrestlemania X, he has that telegraphed slow count when it's actually the finish of the match, etc. I think it is a nostalgia thing, most people associate him with their first memories of watching wrestling and assume he must have been good since he was in WWF/WWE for so long. I feel the same way about Aubrey Edwards in AEW. Everyone says she is a great ref, but seems more like a hivemind thing than anything based on reality. Every match I watch Aubrey is over the top and draws attention to herself and away from the in ring action. I think a ref should be almost invisible unless enforcing the rules or counting.
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Jan 12, 2020 15:45
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Pope Corky the IX posted:Watching OSW Review episodes and why the hell was Earl Hebner considered such an amazing referee? He's constantly trying to get himself over. He physically interferes with wrestlers like kicking their hands off ropes and such, he ruins iconic camera shots like Razor with the two IC belts at the top of the ladder at Wrestlemania X, he has that telegraphed slow count when it's actually the finish of the match, etc. He's not. He's largely seen in the industry as a lying, backstabbing, thieving piece of poo poo by wrestlers and promoters alike. As posted above though, he was THE referee in WWF/WWE, back when referees actually had names and were often part of storylines.
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Jan 12, 2020 16:58
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The best referee is Mike Chioda because he's consistently good at his job, rarely if ever fucks up (that I can remember, at least), and is a background player not taking any spotlight for himself. Plus, he was the first ref I saw throw up the devil horns to signal for a 2-count and I always loved that.
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Jan 12, 2020 17:25
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Dell_Zincht posted:He's not. He's largely seen in the industry as a lying, backstabbing, thieving piece of poo poo by wrestlers and promoters alike.
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Jan 12, 2020 17:27
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I agree that Del Rio's flying armbar was extremely good but in general he was just okay.
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Jan 12, 2020 22:49
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Dell_Zincht posted:He's not. He's largely seen in the industry as a lying, backstabbing, thieving piece of poo poo by wrestlers and promoters alike. He even had actual matches with Nick Patrick during the Invasion. poo poo was shameful.
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Jan 12, 2020 22:51
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I'm not sure Earl Hebner is particularly lionized so much as he's just one of the few refs whose name we remember, and that's mostly Montreal. Just like Nick Patrick is mostly known for being the nWo heel ref.
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Jan 12, 2020 23:37
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It still blows my mind that WWE saw some broke-rear end TV show make Alberto white-hot and they didn't follow in that path. MexAmerica was just throwing money into a loving incinerator.
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Jan 12, 2020 23:40
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Shine posted:The stomp was awful. It was a lovely "recipient holds themselves in an awkward, completely useless position for no reason other than to get hit" move. Every Mexican has to do that move, I guess. I hate that move
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Jan 12, 2020 23:44
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Karl Ontario posted:I think it is a nostalgia thing, most people associate him with their first memories of watching wrestling and assume he must have been good since he was in WWF/WWE for so long. aubrey is cool but if you want an invisible ref she does not do that. honestly i did not mind earl back in the day, but he is too slow now
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Jan 13, 2020 01:38
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oh but seriously I posted:aubrey is cool but if you want an invisible ref she does not do that. honestly i did not mind earl back in the day, but he is too slow now Aubrey's only visible when she needs to be, her body language is easy to read, and she presents as an authority. She's a very good ref and not every ref has to be invisible by default. Tommy Young sure wasn't.
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Jan 13, 2020 01:49
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Nehru the Damaja posted:It still blows my mind that WWE saw some broke-rear end TV show make Alberto white-hot and they didn't follow in that path. MexAmerica was just throwing money into a loving incinerator. Milking the American public for dumb patriotism is a classic WWE move.
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Jan 13, 2020 02:55
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Aubrey is proof that refs can genuinely help tell matches instead of being interchangeable nobodies and that's a very good thing
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Jan 13, 2020 03:06
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I like Red Shoes and Marty Asami, heck even that new ref (who botched one of the counts in the WK14 tag gauntlet) is okay
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Jan 13, 2020 03:12
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Schneider Heim posted:I like Red Shoes and Marty Asami, heck even that new ref (who botched one of the counts in the WK14 tag gauntlet) is okay Red Shoes is just ok, imo he tends to distract from the match more often than not. Though God gauging the fan reaction before Night 2 of Okada/Naito was bizarre, unexpected, and a nice weird touch.
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Jan 13, 2020 03:23
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Who was that ref in TNA again, the one with the baggy shorts and chuck taylors?
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Jan 13, 2020 03:59
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super macho dude posted:Red Shoes is just ok, imo he tends to distract from the match more often than not.
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Jan 13, 2020 04:10
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FunMerrania posted:Who was that ref in TNA again, the one with the baggy shorts and chuck taylors? Slick Johnson?
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Jan 13, 2020 04:29
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Numero6 posted:Slick Johnson? Yep, that was the guy.
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Jan 13, 2020 04:51
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flatluigi posted:Aubrey is proof that refs can genuinely help tell matches instead of being interchangeable nobodies and that's a very good thing Nikkan Lee is really good at injecting emotion into the matches she referees with subtle facial expressions. Shuji Ishikawa vs. The Bodyguard from Champion Carnival a few years back where Bodyguard was injured told a really good story for a three minute match where the whole story was told by Bodyguard limping to the ring, Lee's facial expressions and a resigned Shuji squashing him. She's a huge contrast from AJPW's other ref Kyohei Wada who is very much a "character" referee, and there's only so many times you can see him pulling Kento's hair and yelling in his face. (He was a perfect choice for the first Taichi/Naito match where his bullshit fit their bullshit though)
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Jan 13, 2020 05:02
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Aubrey Edwards does have a consistent "character", she's more active and catches more of the heel's poo poo than most refs do, and isn't afraid to get in their face about it, and is often present in pull-aparts and such. It makes sense for her to be the "big match" ref because she's a lay-down-the-law type.
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Jan 13, 2020 06:23
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El Hijo del Tirantes (AAA swole ref) is a lot of fun
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Jan 13, 2020 08:04
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Hebner was embarrassingly hammy but at least he didn't SELL MOVES for whatever reason like Slick Johnson did. Like, someone would get whipped into the turnbuckle and Slick would hold his back in faux-pain on the other side of the ring. He did it in both WCW and TNA!
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Jan 13, 2020 08:31
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I don't agree with the idea that a ref should never ever be visible in a match. It's that kind of mentality that leads to WWE doing the same thing with all their backstage interviewers and commentary teams and eventually wrestlers. Just be as generic and flat as possible because YOU aren't supposed to get over, the BRAND is what's over. Obviously there's plenty of examples of refs as characters being done poorly or too frequently or whatever but I think it's just as valid a narrative device as any other thing WWE/WCW/TNA drove into the ground and soured everybody on, like heel authority figures or a hotshot title change.
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Jan 13, 2020 08:53
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Red Shoes v. Bullet Club is an ongoing storyline that has never failed to entertain me.
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Jan 13, 2020 09:15
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