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drrockso20 posted:Even most beam weapons should have a hard time doing any significant damage, people vastly underestimate how durable even regular concrete or glass can be once you layer it thick enough In UC a breach is a big deal but nowhere near catastrophic. You see some in the original series and there's one in F91.
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Jan 15, 2020 03:16
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MonsieurChoc posted:In UC a breach is a big deal but nowhere near catastrophic. You see some in the original series and there's one in F91. Even in real life, a breach would not be an oh poo poo everyone to shelters now! situation. There's so much air in those things that it would take a significant amount of time for the O2 levels to get to dangerous levels. Still an emergency that needs to be handled immediately, but not "call your parents and say goodbye" level.
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Jan 15, 2020 03:18
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Anonymous Robot posted:I always figured that this was because mobile suits are basically designed to counter other mobile suits; they can explode, sure, but short of a total detonation they’re only truly compromised if the small cockpit is destroyed. A ship, on the other hand, has a large portion of very fragile weak points anywhere that it has crew or cargo. Given the massive destructive potential of beam weaponry and even some solid shell weapons (you can see flechette ammo eradicating frigates in Gundam,) the name of the game is using mobile suit sorties to keep enemy forces far, far away from any ships or colonies, or they’re just toast. The problem is that they're really not. Yes, a ship has plenty of vulnerable areas, but in terms of total mass it's really not that much - even if you have a weapon that completely ignores armor and shoots through anything, all you're going to end up with is a through and through hole most of the time. To say nothing of how many times ships just completely explode due to some suit or another taking out the bridge (and really, why aren't all the ships designed with a completely internal bridge?). Sure, killing most/all of the command crew is going to cripple the ship and leave it fighting without direction, but you're not generally going to have explosive stuff anywhere near the bridge for any number of reasons. I mean, even if you want to argue the cost effective issue for not coating the entire ship with whatever wonder material that Gundam 'verse uses, the concept of armoring the much smaller critical sections is not some mystical concept.
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Jan 15, 2020 03:20
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SRW has battleships being the beefiest units on the player's side! Bar some outliers like Mazinger Zero but well, it's Zero.
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Jan 15, 2020 03:34
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This colony talk is reminding me that one of the first big issues I had with SEED was how absurdly stupid the design of the PLANTs was. There's just so many things wrong with them!
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Jan 15, 2020 03:43
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iospace posted:Even in real life, a breach would not be an oh poo poo everyone to shelters now! situation. There's so much air in those things that it would take a significant amount of time for the O2 levels to get to dangerous levels. Still an emergency that needs to be handled immediately, but not "call your parents and say goodbye" level. Yeah that's pretty much UC breaches.
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Jan 15, 2020 03:56
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Bloody Pom posted:This colony talk is reminding me that one of the first big issues I had with SEED was how absurdly stupid the design of the PLANTs was. There's just so many things wrong with them! My understanding is that people have actually spaded them out and they are perfectly viable and even have some advantages but they probably would have worked better with a design change that focused on practicality instead of aesthetics. But y'know, Gundam rarely does that.
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Jan 15, 2020 04:10
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MonsieurChoc posted:Yeah that's pretty much UC breaches. Yeah, you just casually jog over to the lever to pop out the little gummy balloons or use the little spiderman glue on it or whatever!
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Jan 15, 2020 04:22
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Bridges on top of the ship with windows into space is probably justified in some side material with Minovsky interference talk. Can’t rely on radar but visible light is minimally affected. If so, it’s still basically impractical nonsense, but just looking like you know what you’re doing can go a long, long way in sci-fi storytelling. Sometimes even more so than actually knowing what you’re doing. HitTheTargets fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Jan 15, 2020 |
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Jan 15, 2020 05:20
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Lord Koth posted:The problem is that they're really not. Yes, a ship has plenty of vulnerable areas, but in terms of total mass it's really not that much - even if you have a weapon that completely ignores armor and shoots through anything, all you're going to end up with is a through and through hole most of the time. To say nothing of how many times ships just completely explode due to some suit or another taking out the bridge (and really, why aren't all the ships designed with a completely internal bridge?). Sure, killing most/all of the command crew is going to cripple the ship and leave it fighting without direction, but you're not generally going to have explosive stuff anywhere near the bridge for any number of reasons. Command decks are exposed because Minovsky particles. When you're in sensor hell, direct visibility is kind of useful. That said, a lot of Gundam shows have retractable bridges for that reason. (IBO has people not retracting bridges be a character beat a couple times).
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Jan 15, 2020 05:40
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Nessus posted:Also I think people overlook Macross... because it almost entirely doesn't exist in the west[.] gently caress Harmony Gold.
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Jan 15, 2020 05:59
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chiasaur11 posted:Command decks are exposed because Minovsky particles. When you're in sensor hell, direct visibility is kind of useful. That said, a lot of Gundam shows have retractable bridges for that reason. (IBO has people not retracting bridges be a character beat a couple times). This doesn’t really stand up when you realize that they could just have a bunch of monitors hard-wired to cameras just like mobile suits do. There are exposed command decks because it’s cool.
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Jan 15, 2020 06:21
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Zeta-and-onwards UC ships have combat bridges with camera monitors instead of windows, with the viewing deck not being used in battle.
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Jan 15, 2020 06:39
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HitTheTargets posted:Bridges on top of the ship with windows into space is probably justified in some side material with Minovsky interference talk. Can’t rely on radar but visible light is minimally affected. If so, it’s still basically impractical nonsense, but just looking like you know what you’re doing can go a long, long way in sci-fi storytelling. Actually visible light is also interfered with at high enough levels, it's the whole reason Dummy Balloons work
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Jan 15, 2020 08:32
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Baka-nin posted:? I wasn't talking about the federation, the pariah status was from the rest of the zeon, like you know Gato, who is clearly disgusted that he has to work with her. And nah, both versions of Mayfly make it pretty clear she's been haunted for years by what she did and has abandonment issues. The second one really makes it clear she's bitter about being treated like an outcast for years even amongst the rest of the holdouts until they need her and her crew. drrockso20 posted:Actually visible light is also interfered with at high enough levels, it's the whole reason Dummy Balloons work
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Jan 15, 2020 08:47
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drrockso20 posted:Actually visible light is also interfered with at high enough levels, it's the whole reason Dummy Balloons work I haven't seen it touched upon much elsewhere than in the mangas but supposedly some grunt suits also use a computer generated display to a account for the Minovsky distortion. In Beltorchika's Children, Amuro almost gets ganked when he goes out in a Jegan with a CG cockpit and it's just ~*too slow for his newtype abilities*~
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Jan 15, 2020 09:00
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It's not like the exposed bridges aren't accounted for; any time there's serious naval combat in most Gundam shows everyone suits up in spacesuits.
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Jan 15, 2020 11:06
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RillAkBea posted:I haven't seen it touched upon much elsewhere than in the mangas but supposedly some grunt suits also use a computer generated display to a account for the Minovsky distortion. In Beltorchika's Children, Amuro almost gets ganked when he goes out in a Jegan with a CG cockpit and it's just ~*too slow for his newtype abilities*~ Yup, indeed I believe that's supposed to be standard in basically all Mobile Suits in UC, it's part of what makes the various prototype and high end suits even more terrifying to fight than it should be, because you're probably not going to have a file on it, and thus you're going to be running even more of a disadvantage(and this gets magnified even more with stuff like Bits or Funnels)
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Jan 15, 2020 13:47
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The Origin has dudes looking out into space with mounted telescopes on the bridges of the ships, like its World War II. Also, didn’t the Titans punch a hole in a few colonies with Gryps 2?
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Jan 15, 2020 14:23
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Baka-nin posted:? I wasn't talking about the federation, the pariah status was from the rest of the zeon, like you know Gato, who is clearly disgusted that he has to work with her. And nah, both versions of Mayfly make it pretty clear she's been haunted for years by what she did and has abandonment issues. The second one really makes it clear she's bitter about being treated like an outcast for years even amongst the rest of the holdouts until they need her and her crew. I wasn't talking about the Federation either, because the person who refuses her access to the Federation's amnesty is her Zeon commanding officer. Who doesn't refuse her because of any stigma, but because he's stressed after A Baoa Qu and when he said they had to give up their ships to get amnesty and she refused, he just told her to deal with it herself. https://streamable.com/0f5gc Gato didn't hate her because she had gassed a colony, he hated her because she had been a space pirate for the past 3 years rather than hiding out as a Zeon loyalist like him and he didn't trust her because of it. The only thing the Mayfly of Space shorts make clear is that she is haunted by some action in her past, but never actually says what that action is, and, more to the point, still shows her as fanatically loyal to Zeon even 11 months after the gassing and so not someone who hated them for making her a war criminal. We know she's fanatically loyal because the gassing must have been in January of UC 0079, but when Cima think she is going to die at the Battle of Solomon in December of 0079, and with no-one observing her, she shouts "Sieg Zeon" in the privacy of her cockpit. That is not the action of someone who hates Zeon. She began to hate Zeon after the One Year War, when she was a space pirate, which is why Gato hates her. https://streamable.com/28kfb Yea, she was haunted by what is meant to be an oblique reference to having gassed a colony, but keep in mind that many soldiers who are haunted by past actions don't regret them till later in life or don't ever regret them at all and view them as having been necessary even if they were unpleasant. There is nothing to indicate Cima hates Zeon because of the gassing, and she comes off as having grown to hate them during the 3 years living without support in space because she wanted someplace to belong again and not because of the gassing. drrockso20 posted:Actually visible light is also interfered with at high enough levels, it's the whole reason Dummy Balloons work This isn't actually true. Something important to understand about Minovsky particles is that while they are omnipresent, they are omnipresent in such minor qualities that you'd never know it. Which is why they weren't discovered until long after long range communication. Minovsky particles can only disrupt these technologies when boosted to artificial densities by human intervention. Radar, telephones etc. work perfectly fine most of the time, and examples of them in use can be seen multiple times throughout all of Tomino's UC entries, from 0079 through Victory. If your comms or detection tech goes offline because of Minovsky interference, then you know something is up. So let's think about one of the most cited examples of dummy balloons at work: when Char launches dummy balloons of Neo Zeon's fleet to fool the Federation in to thinking he was complying with the the treaty he had signed during Char's Counterattack. Given the above, they cannot have been observed while inside a Minovsky environment, because if there was Minovsky interference loving with the detection equipment of the Federation they'd immediately know something was up and so the cameras must have been free of Minovsky interference. Yet they were still showing a vague enough image that the Federation's observing ships were fooled in to thinking Neo Zeon were complying with the treaty. Minovsky particles don't interefere with light; UC just has cameras that cannot detect and display images at a good resolution even at at that relatively close distance in space. Which is why the detection range on mobile suits in gunpla manuals and stuff is always given as a few thousand meters. This is also why laser communication i.e. light based signals, is used inside Minovsky fields during battle, and why it's never disrupted. It wouldn't be nearly so reliable if Minovsky particles futzed with light to any degree. Gundam Century, published in 1981 and with the contribution of several of the original creative staff from 0079 (including chief writer for the show Hiroyuki Hoshiyama and Kenichi Matsuzaki; who wrote 23 episodes of 0079 between them) clarified the actual purpose of Minovsky particles within the show. Gundam Century translated by Mark Simmons posted:The Minovsky particle itself is an elementary particle with near-zero rest mass and a positive or negative electrical charge. When arranged in a cubic lattice, these particles form an invisible field which prevents the transmission of electromagnetic waves with greater than microwave wavelengths. This reduces the accuracy of radar and makes long-distance wireless communication impossible. At high densities, Minovsky particles even disrupt the functioning of large-scale integrated circuits. Naturally, protective systems were developed to shield computers from Minovsky particle interference, but their high cost and weight meant that they couldn't be installed in missile-class precision guided weapons. The only thing greater than microwaves is radio waves, and light has a smaller wavelength. Minovsky particles were never meant to interfere with light at high densities; they were meant to disrupt electronics, as an excuse for why missiles and other beyond visual range weaponry were no longer viable within the setting. Some manga, like the aforementioned Beltorchika's Children may have contradicted this in the meantime, but it was clearly not the original intention and doesn't actually make a lot of sense within the setting. tsob fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Jan 15, 2020 |
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Jan 15, 2020 14:39
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ManSedan posted:The Origin has dudes looking out into space with mounted telescopes on the bridges of the ships, like its World War II. Sensors aren't always reliable, especially with minovsky particles, and sometimes just having someone able to spot that thing over there and zoom in on it is really useful. There's a great fight in Space Battleship Yamato 2199 where their radar tower's damaged, so they get a bunch of crew out on the viewing decks with binoculars calling things in instead.
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Jan 15, 2020 15:17
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Nessus posted:Does this mean that all the improbable distorted space shot backgrounds and nebulas and poo poo are just diegetic light distortion because someone was moving a cargo fleet through the area? That’d be neat, actually. I said minimally affected, though, because I’m pretty sure it takes a lot of Minovsky particles before light gets distorted. You’ll sometimes see ships assigned to deliberately saturate an area to jam communications because just the general presence of the reactors doesn’t do all that much. Short-wave MS-to-MS radio seems to function well even in prolonged battles. It’s just one of those things backformed onto the original series that mostly works.
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Jan 15, 2020 17:22
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Last night I read the F90 manga. I don’t know how accurate the translation I was reading was but boy, what a mess.
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Jan 15, 2020 17:26
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HitTheTargets posted:That’d be neat, actually. I said minimally affected, though, because I’m pretty sure it takes a lot of Minovsky particles before light gets distorted. You’ll sometimes see ships assigned to deliberately saturate an area to jam communications because just the general presence of the reactors doesn’t do all that much. Short-wave MS-to-MS radio seems to function well even in prolonged battles. It’s just one of those things backformed onto the original series that mostly works. It wouldn’t really fit with the melodramatic style of Gundam, but one thing I really like about Armored Trooper VOTOMS is that, if the pilots have access to radio, they don’t really utilize it. Being enclosed in a VOTOMS is a terrifying and isolating experience that limits one’s sensory awareness and depersonalizes the pilot (note how VOTOMs helmets typically make the pilot look almost insectoid, vs the big windowed visors more common in Gundam.)
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Jan 15, 2020 17:33
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HitTheTargets posted:Short-wave MS-to-MS radio seems to function well even in prolonged battles. It’s just one of those things backformed onto the original series that mostly works. Minovsky interference is generally against long range communication, not short range like between two dueling mobile suits. It also helps that in most of UC mobile suits can't actually release Minovsky particles themselves, and the amount a mobile suit generates is negligible. The only UC entry where mobile suits are specifically noted as releasing Minovsky particles is Victory. It's not really backformed on to the original series (unless you mean the light distortion; which isn't ever a factor in the original show anyway), because it's a consistent portrayal in all of Tomino's UC shows from 0079 to Victory (and on in to G-Reco if you wish).
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Jan 15, 2020 17:50
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One of the best things about Turn-A is almost everyone opening their cockpit to yell at each other instead of using the radio.
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Jan 15, 2020 18:19
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Anonymous Robot posted:It makes some sense once you’ve accepted the handwaving technology. Beam weaponry can penetrate anything (not coated in beam-scattering chemicals, which are presumably prohibitively expensive,) and Minovsky particles prevent the use of super long-range weaponry, landing you with something roughly approximate to pre-V2 WWII in terms of strategy and technological state. Hey, I know I'm a bit late to that party, but the bold part is important, because one of the key innovations in naval warfare in WWII was the carrier and its fighter contingent. At least for 0079, Gundam is an analog to WWII, and in this case, mobile suits are basically carrier fighters with all the contingent changes those brought to naval battles. Meanwhile, all of the warships you see duking it out at Loum or Solomon are basically classic battleships, which history remembers as being made obsolete by the carrier task group doctrine.
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Jan 15, 2020 19:07
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IIRC, the only advantage of eyes over cameras/monitors is if the latter is running anything that'll interpret data like unconvincing dummies into whatever they're dummies of. Char's fleet in CCA weren't just low-effort balloons and actually looked the part because he knew they'd be close enough to get a visual inspection, but in an actual battle with high levels of Minovsky particle interference, dummies are useful because you're relying on the computers to be fooled into interpreting the dummies as mobile suits or ships. Also, I'm pretty sure UC Gundam (and some others) exaggerate colony breaches as much as they do to show how goddamn insane it is that people are happily fighting a war where their very habitats are at stake from the slightest misfire. Battles in populated areas have enough issues with collateral damage, nevermind the human cost of living around/in a warzone but colonies in Gundam takes it further by making the very world they inhabit unsafe as well.
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Jan 15, 2020 22:36
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I think it's also because people unfamiliar with the science are still gonna be familiar with "there's a hole in space, everything gets sucked out." While not technically correct, if that wasn't there watchers would likely think it's incorrect
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Jan 15, 2020 23:08
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Yea, I always find it funny that a lot of people who see Char's Counterattack for the first time complain about how unrealistic it is that Quess leaps between mobile suits with no space suit and unprotected from the vacuum of space for a few seconds, even though it's actually a relatively realistic depiction of something that is possible (even if not advisable) and the expectation they have (she'd immediately explode) is the actual unrealistic thing. Being realistic is less important than the illusion of realism in film (i.e. verisimilitude), and sometimes you have to portray something incorrectly so the audience will buy it as realistic because they're so used to unrealistic depictions in media and have no other frame of reference.
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Jan 15, 2020 23:39
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tsob posted:Yea, I always find it funny that a lot of people who see Char's Counterattack for the first time complain about how unrealistic it is that Quess leaps between mobile suits with no space suit and unprotected from the vacuum of space for a few seconds, even though it's actually a relatively realistic depiction of something that is possible (even if not advisable) and the expectation they have (she'd immediately explode) is the actual unrealistic thing. Being realistic is less important than the illusion of realism in film (i.e. verisimilitude), and sometimes you have to portray something incorrectly so the audience will buy it as realistic because they're so used to unrealistic depictions in media and have no other frame of reference. Yeah it's kinda funny when you compare it to something that came out only a couple years prior like Dallos which goes whole hog on the "people explode when exposed to vacuum" myth
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Jan 15, 2020 23:52
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Dallos is so tight.
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Jan 16, 2020 00:00
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Not necessarily a Gundam thing but something I've always wondered regarding media showing exposure to vacuum is how much damage a person might take from radiation. Would your skin get a pretty nasty burn from solar radiation over a short hop like Quess does or would you need a much more thorough time being exposed for it to appear? I'd imagine a body in vacuum for an extended period of time would look freezer burnt as they freeze and have their skin cooked.
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Jan 16, 2020 00:20
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Arcsquad12 posted:Not necessarily a Gundam thing but something I've always wondered regarding media showing exposure to vacuum is how much damage a person might take from radiation. Would your skin get a pretty nasty burn from solar radiation over a short hop like Quess does or would you need a much more thorough time being exposed for it to appear? I'd imagine a body in vacuum for an extended period of time would look freezer burnt as they freeze and have their skin cooked. I've not studied physics in any great detail but I remember reading that you freezing in space is kind of a myth. Heat is energy, energy can't disappear it can only be transferred, and since space is a vacuum there's nowhere for the heat to go.
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Jan 16, 2020 01:37
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The “Bodies in Space” series of prints that DUKE GRANDPARENT was selling in SA mart a few years ago answer these questions. http://bodiesinspace.ghoste.net They are pretty rad, I have them all over my house.
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Jan 16, 2020 01:42
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Midjack posted:The “Bodies in Space” series of prints that DUKE GRANDPARENT was selling in SA mart a few years ago answer these questions. ... Man, uh, out of context that really looks like someone's weird fetish for barely dressed people and space death.
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Jan 16, 2020 02:39
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ImpAtom posted:... Man, uh, out of context that really looks like someone's weird fetish for barely dressed people and space death. Even in context it's pretty horny
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Jan 16, 2020 02:44
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Droyer posted:I've not studied physics in any great detail but I remember reading that you freezing in space is kind of a myth. Heat is energy, energy can't disappear it can only be transferred, and since space is a vacuum there's nowhere for the heat to go. I mean heat can still be radiated out of a body but it takes longer. You'll die of exposure well before you freeze
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Jan 16, 2020 03:14
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Gripweed posted:Even in context it's pretty horny If there's one thing in the world I love more than horny, it's science. That there is horny science. Arcsquad12 posted:I mean heat can still be radiated out of a body but it takes longer. You'll die of exposure well before you freeze Specifically, you'll suffocate long before you have to worry about any of the other nasty effects of hard vacuum, high radiation exposure.
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Jan 16, 2020 03:27
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You nerds don't know poo poo about space, The Magic Schoolbus taught me everything I need to know I've been making my way chronologically through every gundam series for the first time excluding SD, build fighters, and IGLOO, and I can't think of any time a colony has been totally hosed because someone shot a hole in it. It's usually just bad news for the people in the immediate vicinity and it gets repaired or sealed off with that bubblegum stuff they have in UC continuity. I'm at SEED Destiny now and it's okay I guess but also it's kinda silly and so heavily borrowing a lot of stuff from Zeta that it just keeps reminding me how much I liked Zeta.
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