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personally as a young woman i was always confused why erk and matthew got so annoyed with serra because serra owned and i wanted to be like her when i grew up.
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Jan 25, 2020 00:03
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Yeah I like when fire emblem engages with its mediaeval/feudal setting, whether that's the class divide or the impositions on women. Not in the way that Kaga wrote necessarily, where every woman is at threat of being sex trafficked and must be rescued by chivalrous men, but 3h hits a sweet spot for that with me.
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Jan 25, 2020 00:06
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Serra is the worst!!! (this post made by erk)
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Jan 25, 2020 00:06
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Cattail Prophet posted:My favorite bit of subtle commentary re: the class divide in 3H is, uh, the literal class divide between Noble and Commoner for tier 0. Ashe, an adopted son of a noble house, is still a Commoner in terms of gameplay; meanwhile Hanneman, who has formally renounced his title, nevertheless remains a Noble. This would suggest that birth is all that matters, but then you have Petra, a foreign princess/political hostage, and Mercedes, who broadly speaking is in the same situation as Hanneman, albeit less voluntarily; both Commoners. Essentially, it's all arbitrary and the rules are made up for the benefit of those in power. This is even funnier because the benefits of ranking out with both the Commoner and Noble classes are just ... a +5HP buff skill. It's like there's a very quiet statement there that being a noble or a commoner doesn't really matter, they're the same in the end which means Edelgard has a point. Also ... a hundred new replies and NONE of them were about Edelgard being the best or the worst? Am I actually coming to the gay dead forums for CIVILITY again?
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Jan 25, 2020 00:08
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To each their own. For me, I'm comfortable listing my feelings about the game's characters as: Great: Seteth, Annette, Dimitri, Marianne Good: Caspar, Bernie, Petra, Dedue, Ashe, Ingrid, Hilda, Raphael, Ignatz, Catherine, Shamir Okay: Hubert, Dorothea, Linhardt, Ferdinand, Felix, Sylvain, Mercedes, Claude, Lysithea, Alois, Manuela, Hanneman, Flayn Bad: Edelgard, Lorenz, Sothis, Rhea, Agarthans Who?: Gilbert, Cyril For a JRPG with this many characters, that's not a bad showing at all and I still think of the Lions as my kids (I work in education irl and got attached).
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Jan 25, 2020 00:10
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professor metis posted:Yeah I like when fire emblem engages with its mediaeval/feudal setting, whether that's the class divide or the impositions on women. Not in the way that Kaga wrote necessarily, where every woman is at threat of being sex trafficked and must be rescued by chivalrous men, but 3h hits a sweet spot for that with me. there were a few interesting ideas with that in kaga's writing, like how ayra, obviously the strongest swordsman of the first generation and a fierce, independent person in general needed to wait for shanan to be of age to restore her house, and seemed to feel some level of frustration with that fact. but yeah i could go the rest of my life without another 'this cleric has been kidnapped! 'gah, these heroes have ruined my fun! (i mean that i am going to sexually assault this woman, but this game is rated T' 'don't worry madam... you are safe now.' being in a fire emblem game again, at least if the game isn't going to actually comment on sexual assault.
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Jan 25, 2020 00:14
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Endorph posted:there were a few interesting ideas with that in kaga's writing, like how ayra, obviously the strongest swordsman of the first generation and a fierce, independent person in general needed to wait for shanan to be of age to restore her house, and seemed to feel some level of frustration with that fact. but yeah i could go the rest of my life without another 'this cleric has been kidnapped! 'gah, these heroes have ruined my fun! (i mean that i am going to sexually assault this woman, but this game is rated T' 'don't worry madam... you are safe now.' being in a fire emblem game again, at least if the game isn't going to actually comment on sexual assault. Yeah there's definitely some great writing for women characters in there, like Eyvel and Lachesis are two of my favourite characters, but it sure does coexist with some awful misogyny lol. But this is the 3h thread, whoops!
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Jan 25, 2020 00:22
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tbf the writers of three houses were directly inspired by fe4 and have mentioned that in interviews so its still relevant
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Jan 25, 2020 00:36
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Cobbsprite posted:This is even funnier because the benefits of ranking out with both the Commoner and Noble classes are just ... a +5HP buff skill. It's like there's a very quiet statement there that being a noble or a commoner doesn't really matter, they're the same in the end which means Edelgard has a point. There is actual one difference between the Commoner and Noble classes. Commoner uses a character's base growths, but Noble gets a +5% Charm growth. Cythereal posted:I'll be standing over here next to the pegasi, mages, magitek robots, and dragons. This is the dumbest, most insincere criticism there is. I'm not sure you've actually played the game at all. Though one thing I do enjoy about 3H is that literally anyone can learn magic and everyone has a unique spell list. I made Petra a Mortal Savant one playthrough because she maxed out her sword rank super early, and while she was never a stellar spellslinger, she was my only caster to learn Saggittae. E: Edelgard is the best Lord in terms of stats and gayness
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Jan 25, 2020 01:00
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hopeandjoy posted:Ike is also gay regardless of your whims. Tibarn and Reyson are so married, I literally don't know how they can be interpreted any other way. Old skool FE really is a land of contrasts where there are genuinely great female characters and lots of them, but at the same time there's weird misogny baked into the stories. Like Minerva's story arc between Shadow Dragon and New Mystery, where she's a tough, honorable woman who leads a squad of other powerful women and cares for her baby sister, steps up to take responsibility for her brother's crimes and makes sure to be personally there to defeat him even when she could leave it to Marth and then reluctantly takes over running Macedon, and then... in the next game you have to rescue her from a coup, her brother comes back and emotionally abuses her and treats her like a child and the game acts like it's sweet, and she ends up as a nun? All while fellating Michealis for no apparent reason since the story writes him as a monster? I loving love Minerva and gently caress New Mystery for that, is what I'm saying. Oh, right, 3H. I like that Dorothea is looking out for herself, and I think it's important that the writing doesn't treat it as selfish or silly. Her concerns are taken seriously and shown to be valid, and she's never demonized for what she does, and I think that's important for letting her desire to 'marry up' be shown in a way that avoids perpetuating sexist tropes. mycatscrimes fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Jan 25, 2020 |
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Jan 25, 2020 01:01
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:This is the dumbest, most insincere criticism there is. I'm not sure you've actually played the game at all. It's an illustration that Fire Emblem makes no pretensions to realism - and thank goodness for that! Besides the obviously fantastical elements, there's all sorts of things that would be realistic but the developers decided wouldn't be fun to deal with - managing logistics, say. Or dealing with realistic speeds of communication and getting incomplete communication at that because it's vanishingly unlikely these characters would actually be speaking directly to each other. Or dealing with disease. I personally consider sexism to be one of those things that's realistic, yes, but the game is probably better off not including. I get that many people feel Dorothea is not a sexist character in how she's written, but I personally see her that way and it bothers me. But, get this - people are allowed to interpret characters differently and have differing personal likes and dislikes.
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Jan 25, 2020 01:08
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capitaldelendaest posted:Tibarn and Reyson are so married, I literally don't know how they can be interpreted any other way. Tibarn is Reyson's adoptive father.  He's got a very off and on relationship with the crow king though.
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Jan 25, 2020 01:09
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^I can't see them that way at all, but I guess that's the hazard of relying on subtext, and why I do prefer gay representation to be explicit. I don't want to dismiss you, agree to disagree? Also it's perfectly logical to include the need to marry out of the common class or suffer in a game as committed to commenting on feudal classism as 3H, it's a logical story in which to explore that aspect of sexism, it's not like they had to shoehorn it in, it adds to the thematic content. I want media acknowledge women experience sexism and I prefer it to show ways we cope with it without demonizing them. mycatscrimes fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Jan 25, 2020 |
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Jan 25, 2020 01:16
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I'm bored, so I pulled out my spreadsheet and love of data analysis for something that may be genuinely useful to the thread. With so many characters in FETH filling the same roles, who's mechanically on top in a given weight class? So let's take a look at the obvious archers to start with - Shamir, Ignatz, Ashe, and Bernie. Stats are HP/STR/MAG/DEX/SPD/LCK/DEF/RES/CHA/total Shamir: 35 40 25 55 40 55 20 15 30 315 Ignatz: 35 35 30 50 50 55 25 35 25 340 Ashe: 35 35 25 55 50 40 20 35 25 320 Bernie: 35 35 20 55 50 25 20 30 35 305 Cyril: 35 20 15 40 40 30 10 10 15 215 Cyri+: 55 40 35 60 60 50 30 30 35 395 Cyril+ represents taking Aptitude into account. In terms of raw stats, the archers are mostly close together, the only stat where anyone has more than +/- 15% growths is in Luck. Ignatz has somewhat higher overall stats than the others (his stat total is actually on the median for the game's growth totals among the students), Bernie has lower. Generally, differences are small - Shamir is a little stronger than the others but a little slower, for example. In terms of stats alone, there's no clear winner. Edit: Adding Cyril to the picture, specifically with Aptitude, changes things - he's clearly superior to the others in terms of raw stats even if his edge in any individual stat tends to be small. So let's look at personal traits. Ashe can be immediately discounted, his personal ability has no bearing on his combat utility. Edit: Cyril's trait is taken into account in the revised stats. Ignatz has +20 hit rate. This is a reskin of the Archer class mastery, and can stack with it should you so desire (rear end in a top hat pegasus knights getting away with too much bullshit, perhaps?). While this is a smaller impact on his damage output than Shamir and Bernie, it's also always active unlike those two and helps him in a different area. Bernie gets +5 attack when not at full health, and Shamir gets +4 STR/DEX/MAG/SPD for a turn whenever she kills someone. Both of these abilities increase damage output, but they work differently and it's worth noting. Shamir's is a temporary buff, but it also doesn't put her in any danger to activate and increases in value if you bring a dancer and are willing to dance Shamir. Bernie's is semi-permanent but requires taking a hit, and especially on the higher difficulties she's fragile enough that this can be a dangerous thing. Shamir's also helps her somewhat intangibly by boosting her hit rate and speed where Bernie's just increases her damage. Bernie additionally comes with the minor Crest of Indech, giving her a 10% chance to attack twice on enemies she doesn't double. This also means she can use the bow Inexhaustible (provided you have Leonie and Linhardt), which is something of a double-edged sword in her hands. The brave effect is nice, but healing Bernie every turn is liable to turn off Persecution Complex. To round things off, let's consider their skill learning. All four come with a strength in Bows, naturally. Ignatz also has strengths in Authority and Swords, the former being a very welcome perk and the latter probably not mattering much unless you're considering making him an assassin (valid, but not the best choice for that). Bernie has a weakness in Swords but a strength in Lances and a budding talent in Ride, clearly pointing her to Bow Knight. Shamir and Ashe have a strength and a budding talent in Lances, respectively, also helping them towards Bow Knight but not as well as Bernie. Edit: And Cyril has strengths in Bows, Lances, and Riding alike, making him also a natural fit for Bow Knight. So who's the best archer of FETH? Bernie is probably the overall winner if you can manage Persecution Complex, thanks to that ability, her Crest, and her ease of reaching Bow Knight. Edit: Cyril is her most serious competition - he has the same skill strengths and better growths, but lacks Persecution Complex and a Crest. Shamir I think is a little behind, but Survival Instinct is useful and remember that she starts with an A in Bows. Ignatz has a superior hit rate and a very useful strength in Authority, so he'll be getting good battalions before his peers. Ashe, sadly, I think is the clear loser of the bunch. He's not so far behind that the RNG can't put him in the lead, but he has the biggest struggle to get there. His personal trait can be very useful but it's no help in combat. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Jan 25, 2020 |
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Jan 25, 2020 02:26
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Cyril would probably be a good one to throw in for comparison, even if he's also on a wyvern rider path. I can't remember what his growths are, but his main selling point is point-blank volley at around C rank bows.
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Jan 25, 2020 02:39
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Petra and Leonie should have supports. they'd be such good friends,
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Jan 25, 2020 02:41
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I think Ashe is a good Bow Flier for routes without access to Claude, or if you want to make Leonie a Bow Knight instead of a flying anti-air unit. Locktouch+flying is also stellar utility.
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Jan 25, 2020 02:44
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professor metis posted:Cyril would probably be a good one to throw in for comparison, even if he's also on a wyvern rider path. I can't remember what his growths are, but his main selling point is point-blank volley at around C rank bows. Done, edited in. In short, taking Aptitude into account and he's clearly superior to the dedicated archer crew in terms of raw stats, but it's not a huge edge and I think Bernie is still on top provided you can manage Persecution Complex. The little bugger even has strengths in every skill he needs for Bow Knight.
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Jan 25, 2020 02:51
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If we're talking translation changes I think it's important to note that the Hubert/Edelgard ending was originally explicitly platonic and was made romantic in translation Which as someone who reads both of them as being gay in a society that has strong pressure for at least the nobility to straight marry and produce kids even if it doesn't actively persecute the gays makes me kinda livid, especially since imo their relationship is just better platonic (We will not be going into the issue of "why tf is the Queer House the villains 3/4ths of the time intsys" in today's post but hoo boy is that definitely an issue) in lighter and more projecting takes all the adhd kids are in the black eagles prove me wrong
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Jan 25, 2020 02:59
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The only recruitable students I have left are Ferdinand, Caspar, Ashe, Linhardt, and Felix. I don't think I'd end up using any of them so I don't know really whom to work on recruiting
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Jan 25, 2020 03:01
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Like Clockwork posted:If we're talking translation changes I think it's important to note that the Hubert/Edelgard ending was originally explicitly platonic and was made romantic in translation What really??? Can I get a link with a comparison?
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Jan 25, 2020 03:05
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Like Clockwork posted:If we're talking translation changes I think it's important to note that the Hubert/Edelgard ending was originally explicitly platonic and was made romantic in translation Their story is SO much better if they are just friends. It's way more interesting that Hubert saw something horrible happen to his best friend, and in response he dedicates his life to protecting her and to seeing that her dream of it being unthinkable for anyone else can come to fruition. It works so much better with the "and oh he was carrying a torch for her the whole time." It ruins his character. Even if hey I see Hubert as bi because his ending with Bernie is so good.
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Jan 25, 2020 03:07
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Like Clockwork posted:If we're talking translation changes I think it's important to note that the Hubert/Edelgard ending was originally explicitly platonic and was made romantic in translation Now I'm mad
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Jan 25, 2020 03:14
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Like Clockwork posted:(We will not be going into the issue of "why tf is the Queer House the villains 3/4ths of the time intsys" in today's post but hoo boy is that definitely an issue)
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Jan 25, 2020 03:24
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professor metis posted:What really??? Can I get a link with a comparison? https://twitter.com/mikaharuka_fe3h/status/1213260564597751808
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Jan 25, 2020 03:40
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Honestly this is the kind of thing I can see being a translation mistake just because the original JP is somewhat awkwardly written, and a lot of the time stuff like this is translated out of context and with no idea of the larger game or the characters involved. It wouldn't be out of place for Treehouse (see: Elincia/Ike) but I don't recall their supports being that romantic so it doesn't read like a more concentrated effort like, say, what was done with Manuela/Dorothea or Felix/Sylvain.
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Jan 25, 2020 03:48
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Ignatz' personal skill is actually bowrange +1 in disguise
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Jan 25, 2020 03:48
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Thanks for that archer analysis. It’s interesting how close they are, since the stats and RNG ended up pretty different in my run.
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Jan 25, 2020 03:51
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re: Persecution Complex, don't forget it can also be activated by getting a levelup with HP gain mid-battle! (not that Bernie's HP growth is all that great, but still...)
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Jan 25, 2020 03:56
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Ohhh, interesting thank you. Yeah I think a lot of the translation just misses some nuances here and there which is unfortunate but I understand to a degree considering the time pressure I'm sure they were under.
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Jan 25, 2020 03:56
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Can I just say that I genuinely hate when people call Black Eagles the queer house? Yeah it has the most lesbians, but I feel like that's genuinely the only thing people look at, and it makes me kinda upset because of how often Male gay erasure happens in media. The blue lions are just about as gay as the black eagles, just with a more heavy slant towards gay men. Labeling any of the house 'the queer one' is just silly, especially in an attempt to frame it as a persecution thing. If anything its weirder that the golden deer are as straight as they are. (Which still includes multiple good gay pairings.)
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Jan 25, 2020 03:58
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Endorph posted:Honestly this is the kind of thing I can see being a translation mistake just because the original JP is somewhat awkwardly written, and a lot of the time stuff like this is translated out of context and with no idea of the larger game or the characters involved. It wouldn't be out of place for Treehouse (see: Elincia/Ike) but I don't recall their supports being that romantic so it doesn't read like a more concentrated effort like, say, what was done with Manuela/Dorothea or Felix/Sylvain. The only bit of it in the text other than that is iirc hubert saying he loves edelgard in their A support so its one sided at best
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Jan 25, 2020 03:59
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KittyEmpress posted:Can I just say that I genuinely hate when people call Black Eagles the queer house? Yeah it has the most lesbians, but I feel like that's genuinely the only thing people look at, and it makes me kinda upset because of how often Male gay erasure happens in media. its probably because they also have the monopoly on dudes the player can marry which is unfortunately all a lot of people seem to care about
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Jan 25, 2020 04:00
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They don't have a monopoly but every character in CF has at least one romantic ending with a character of the same sex, and even after Yuri gets added they have the vast majority of romantic same-sex options for Byleth as well (I think only Mercie is outside the house). Blions do have queer characters but they are not entirely composed of queer characters and they also have The Only Straight Woman In Fódlan in Ingrid.
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Jan 25, 2020 04:12
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Can I just say once again that Hubert loving rules? He's such a fantastic play on the evil vizier archetype in that he consciously employs the usual tactics and gives off that impression on purpose, knowing the effect it will have on others, except it's all in support of his monarch instead of to undermine them. His relationship with Edelgard is also fantastic and refreshing in that there's way, way more to it than him secretly and silently carrying a torch for her like you'd expect. I love his C and B supports with Dorothea where she's trying to prod him into admitting he loves Edelgard romantically, and he genuinely struggles to explain the bond of mutual trust that runs between the two that transcends any kind of romantic feelings.
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Jan 25, 2020 04:16
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KittyEmpress posted:Can I just say that I genuinely hate when people call Black Eagles the queer house? Yeah it has the most lesbians, but I feel like that's genuinely the only thing people look at, and it makes me kinda upset because of how often Male gay erasure happens in media.
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Jan 25, 2020 04:18
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Endorph posted:Uh, Black Eagles also have the most gay men? i dont think any of the eagles are straight tbh
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Jan 25, 2020 04:19
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also 'how often Male gay character erasure happens in media' idk how to tell you this but every single study shown and analysis of this stuff shows that for every depiction of a lesbian in media there's usually two gay men somewhere else. obviously the amount of screentime these characters get or how they're presented varies but this idea that lesbians somehow vastly outnumber gay men in media is both inaccurate and harmful since it's primarily used to chastise people for saying a depiction of lesbians made them happy.
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Jan 25, 2020 04:20
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I'm still bored and I still love analysis, so here's another statistical thunderdome, this time starring FETH's beef: Caspar, Dedue, Raphael, Alois, and Gilbert. This is the set of characters who got me interested in doing this kind of analysis and comparison to begin with, as they all fit into the big, beefy dude with axes and fists mold. The comparison between Dedue and Gilbert is particularly relevant for Azure Moon players, so let's see how they shake out. Caspar: 55 45 25 45 45 40 30 20 25 330 Dedue: 60 50 15 30 20 25 50 10 30 290 Raphael: 65 50 15 35 15 35 45 10 25 295 Alois: 45 45 20 35 40 30 40 20 40 315 Gilbert: 55 45 20 45 30 15 45 10 35 300 The statistics are telling: Caspar and Alois are actually a bit different from the other three, being faster but less tanky, with Alois' HP in particular being lower than many more stereotypically offense-oriented characters. Dedue and Raphael, on the other hand, are the only two characters in FETH who can reach the vaunted 100% growth in a stat, both in HP. Raphael even does one better and can hit 105% HP growth for not just a guaranteed hit point every level but a 5% chance at two. For Azure Moon fans, Dedue and Gilbert are for all practical purposes dead even, 5 and 10 percent differences here and there. None of these guys have a Crest, so let's go straight to personal abilities. Caspar continues his trend of being more offense-oriented than the rest of this bunch with Born Fighter reducing the Avoid of adjacent enemies by 10, helping not just himself but the entire deployment. Dedue instead has a solidly defensive ability in Staunch Shield, giving him +4 DEF if he's only moved and waited on a turn. Handy for baiting out enemies. Raphael's ability is also defensive but in a different fashion, with a 35% chance to regain HP every turn. It's not a big heal, and is in my experience comparable to equipping a prayer or goddess ring, but it helps (and stacks with those rings if you give him one). Alois takes a completely different approach and can Rally to give allies +8 luck. Probably not as useful as these other options. Gilbert takes -2 damage whenever he has a battalion equipped (i.e. all the time). So, what to make of these? Caspar's is the only ability that improves his offense. Alois gets some support utility. Dedue, Raphael, and Gilbert all offer different improvements to their defenses - Dedue's is designed to help him bait out attacks, Raphael's is luck based, and Gilbert's is straight damage reduction. If you're looking for defense from one of these guys, I'd say Gilbert is the clear winner. No Crests means no Relics, so moving on. Skills for these guys aren't actually identical. Caspar has the requisite strengths in Axes and Brawling, but actually lacks a strength in Heavy Armor - and he has a painful weakness in Authority, limiting his access to good battalions. Dedue has strengths in Axes, Brawling, Lances, and Heavy Armor, seemingly making him a natural Great Knight or Wyvern Lord but he unfortunately has weaknesses in Riding and Flying. Raphael has strengths in Axes, Brawling, and Heavy Armor, and his only notable weakness is in Riding. Alois is mostly the same as Raphael but trades a Flying weakness for Riding. Gilbert lacks the strength in Brawling of the other guys here, but has strengths in Axes, Heavy Armor, Lances, and Riding. In conclusion? These guys actually have subtle distinctions in their roles! Caspar straight up is an offensive fighter, different from the distinctly tanky inclinations of the other guys he initially looks so similar to. He can go that route if you want, but if you're the Eagles I think the game is pushing you to use Edelgard for that kind of role instead. Raphael is flexible, and actually has the makings of a solid wyvern rider. No flying strength but no weakness, either, and he's certainly got the growths to make it work. Gilbert has the best defensive ability of the bunch, and is a natural fit for Great Knight. If you want a tank, you'd be hard-pressed to do better. Dedue is a bit less tanky than Gilbert due to their personal skills, but he has a strength in Brawling - if Gilbert wants to go Great Knight, Dedue definitely wants to be a Warmaster. Alois is a bit lost in this crowd. He's not as strong offensively as Caspar or Raphael, and not as strong defensively as the Blue Lion duo. He does have a higher Charm than the rest of the pack, and a support personal ability, but I don't think this kind of character is the one you'll want in a dedicated support role. I can do similar posts on other characters if anyone else has a request.
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Jan 25, 2020 04:21
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Endorph posted:Uh, Black Eagles also have the most gay men? Black eagles have caspar + lindhart, as well as ferdinand and hubert (which is not terribly romantic but most of the m/m isnt) Blue lions have dimitri, felix, sylvain, dedue, and ashe, many of whom can interchange with each other. Dimitri/mbyleth also exists and I've had people read it as romantic but I havent watched it. But it also literally doesnt matter, because the question isnt which is the gay house, it's that there is no gay house and saying there is is childish. KittyEmpress fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Jan 25, 2020 |
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Jan 25, 2020 04:25
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