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Doc Hawkins posted:the good news is that a lot of people and groups don't like the bill, and now they get to punish Weiner by endorsing Jackie Fielder, who puts it much more politely than I would: "Urbanist pro-housing allies need to do a better job of listening to low income people and people of color before legislating or advocating on their behalf." PFFT, sounds like we got another NIMBY Single-family housing lover here!
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Jan 30, 2020 02:36
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Doc Hawkins posted:on the other hand, the actual market, real history, etc What “real history”? The history of single family zoning being in many places explicitly enacted to keep out poor people and minorities? Or the fact that the status quo of single family zoning and low levels of construction leading to massive displacement and skyrocketing cost if living? Edit: not worth it. In place of what I was originally gonna say, I’ll just say that having experienced significant housing precarity at points of my life I’ll just say this is an issue that is near and dear to me and leave it at that. Fill Baptismal fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Jan 30, 2020 |
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Jan 30, 2020 02:42
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Kill Bristol posted:That flies in the face of the actual evidence, which is that places that issue more permits and build more housing per capita are actually more affordable to live in. Seriously, it’s indefensible that places like Beverly Hills or orinda are majority zoned for single family only. Curious what evidence you’re referring to here
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Jan 30, 2020 02:46
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Doc Hawkins posted:the good news is that a lot of people and groups don't like the bill, and now they get to punish Weiner by endorsing Jackie Fielder, who puts it much more politely than I would: "Urbanist pro-housing allies need to do a better job of listening to low income people and people of color before legislating or advocating on their behalf." It's not just tenant's rights groups either, the California Teacher's Association endorsed her today too. https://twitter.com/JackieFielder_/status/1222696791713255424
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Jan 30, 2020 02:53
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Kill Bristol posted:Edit: not worth it. In place of what I was originally gonna say, I’ll just say that having experienced significant housing precarity at points of my life I’ll just say this is an issue that is near and dear to me and leave it at that. i and many others will fight hard, together, to help you
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Jan 30, 2020 03:28
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Doc Hawkins posted:i and many others will fight hard, together, to help you that's a nice sentiment, but words are wind. what can individuals do to help?
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Jan 30, 2020 03:37
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OMGVBFLOL posted:that's a nice sentiment, but words are wind. what can individuals do to help? Show up to public comment about new apartments, especially affordable housing, in your neighborhood. Be a voice for density and transit access in the face of all of the boomers complaining about parking.
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Jan 30, 2020 03:48
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Doc Hawkins posted:the good news is that a lot of people and groups don't like the bill, and now they get to punish Weiner by endorsing Jackie Fielder, who puts it much more politely than I would: "Urbanist pro-housing allies need to do a better job of listening to low income people and people of color before legislating or advocating on their behalf." single-family zoning was instituted as explicitly racist land use policy and should be eliminated at the state level on those grounds alone
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Jan 30, 2020 03:52
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:single-family zoning was instituted as explicitly racist land use policy and should be eliminated at the state level on those grounds alone To avoid empty quoting I’ll also say that people should read Jessica Trounstine’s “Segregation by Design” to see just how loving racist single family zoning’s roots are.
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Jan 30, 2020 04:05
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Doc Hawkins posted:the good news is that a lot of people and groups don't like the bill, and now they get to punish Weiner by endorsing Jackie Fielder, who puts it much more politely than I would: "Urbanist pro-housing allies need to do a better job of listening to low income people and people of color before legislating or advocating on their behalf." sf state college of ethnic studies, a home for hellraising activists since the longest student strike in US history https://web.archive.org/web/20150223133936/http://www.library.sfsu.edu/about/collections/strike/chronology.html
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Jan 30, 2020 04:23
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OMGVBFLOL posted:that's a nice sentiment, but words are wind. what can individuals do to help? individuals? nothing, besides joining together. the movements and organizations already exist, if you're interested.
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Jan 30, 2020 04:27
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The final boss of gentrification isn't a four story apartment building next to a bus stop. It's a one story, single family craftsmen bungalow that was built in the '30s and is valued at 750K and is owned by a lawyer who votes Dem and complains (under a pseudonym) on the neighborhood FB group about homeless people taking his recycling.
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Jan 30, 2020 05:05
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Salmonella James posted:The final boss of gentrification isn't a four story apartment building next to a bus stop. It's a one story, single family craftsmen bungalow that was built in the '30s and is valued at 750K and is owned by a lawyer who votes Dem and complains (under a pseudonym) on the neighborhood FB group about homeless people taking his recycling. The lawyers can afford to gum up any redevelopment, it’s the poor people who get evicted from projects enabled by laws like SB50 so another featureless, modern, “luxury” building can sit half empty for years on end.
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Jan 30, 2020 05:27
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Salmonella James posted:The final boss of gentrification isn't a four story apartment building next to a bus stop. It's a one story, single family craftsmen bungalow that was built in the '30s and is valued at 750K and is owned by a lawyer who votes Dem and complains (under a pseudonym) on the neighborhood FB group about homeless people taking his recycling. No you see the lawyer is just an honest yeoman owning his own home while the developers who build the apartments are evil neoliberal capitalists.
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Jan 30, 2020 05:32
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Kill Bristol posted:No you see the lawyer is just an honest yeoman owning his own home while the developers who build the apartments are evil neoliberal capitalists. He's a good ally of The People and just trying to protect the character of his neighborhood. Once the battle to save that historic strip mall down by the light rail station is won, surely he'll fight just as hard to build public housing there instead.
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Jan 30, 2020 05:40
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Weembles posted:He's a good ally of The People and just trying to protect the character of his neighborhood. https://twitter.com/opinonhaver/status/1209706198456389634?s=20
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Jan 30, 2020 05:58
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Kill Bristol posted:I’ll just say that having experienced significant housing precarity at points of my life I’ll just say this is an issue that is near and dear to me and leave it at that. Kill Bristol posted:I mean if you’re arguing that we should have a vacancy tax, yeah sure, I’m ambivalent in whether or not it would have a huge effect, but https://www.seattletimes.com/business/real-estate/vancouver-b-c-tries-again-to-thwart-foreign-real-estate-speculators/ quote:In 2016, Vancouver, B.C., instituted a 15 percent tax on foreign buyers of real estate, an effort to dampen speculation that was driving housing prices to some of the highest levels in North America. After some initial success, the boom continued anew. These are things that actually have a huge effect. Unlike the family living in a house for 30 years. After Vancouver started pushing back the house-collectors started buying up Seattle. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/02/seattle-housing-market-is-under-pressure-as-chinese-buying-dries-up.html quote:Seattle has been arguably one of the hottest housing markets in America, with home prices rising annually by double digits fueled by scorching demand. There is, however, one outside force that is starting to throw cold water on all that heat: new weakness from once-intense Chinese buyers. quote:Seattle Listed as #1 City for Chinese Homebuyers (That was all 2018, and fyi LA was #2 after Seattle.) You want to drive down rents overnight? Throw a 50% yearly value tax on all non-owner occupied houses (may as well kill off the semi-legal distributed hotel chains acting as airbnbs), and all non-occupied rentals. (Or something else ridiculously punitive.) Throw a massive financial barrier up and let house collectors go buy up [somewhere else].
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Jan 30, 2020 06:34
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i think we should apply the same lessons of how to deal with housing pricee to other things that have gone up like crazy in price college textbooks gone up in price a zillion percent in the last few decades? there's clearly a shortage of textbooks. the publishers can't keep up with printing new copies of calculus by stewart as the population grows. let's pass a bill to give tax rebates to for buying more printing equipment, problem solved drug prices? same thing. of course insulin is cheaper in canada, they have way fewer people and way more insulin deposits there e: can't wait for the US business community to make good on their promise to create tons of US jobs now that the corporate tax rate they said was keeping them from hiring american was cut by president trump. any day now!!! Shear Modulus fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Jan 30, 2020 |
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Jan 30, 2020 06:37
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Shear Modulus posted:i think we should apply the same lessons of how to deal with housing pricee to other things that have gone up like crazy in price 
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Jan 30, 2020 06:41
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Shear Modulus posted:i think we should apply the same lessons of how to deal with housing pricee to other things that have gone up like crazy in price This would be a good analogy if every time some publisher wanted to publish a textbook they had to get it approved by a panel of professors who coincidentally wrote the existing textbooks and profited from their use. It actually does kind of work with pharmaceuticals because a huge reason for drug prices being high is pharma companies artificially creating scarcity by patent stacking ("discovering" new uses for an existing drug that lets them extend exclusive patent rights), much like homeowners keep the value of their property high by showing up en masse to complain about new housing, attempting to get gas stations landmarked as historic, filing bullshit CEQA lawsuits, etc. FRINGE posted:
I mean sure, slap a vacancy tax on and you might free up some units. I'm not opposed to it. But the core problem in places like the bay and LA is not a high vacancy rate. The vacancy rate in those places is low compared to more affordable metro areas in places like the midwest. Properties lying vacant is not the core problem. The vacancy rate in LA metro area is about 4%. Compare that to some place like Dayton where it's around 11%. Fill Baptismal fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Jan 30, 2020 |
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Jan 30, 2020 06:49
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the homeowners in your pharmaceuticals analogy are the pharma sales reps and chemists who get paid six figures but meanwhile martin shkreli buys a drug production line then immediately jacks up the price by 200x and pockets all of it
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Jan 30, 2020 06:59
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Kill Bristol posted:This would be a good analogy if every time some publisher wanted to publish a textbook they had to get it approved by a panel of professors who coincidentally wrote the existing textbooks and profited from their use. ....Who do you think writes textbooks and chooses what textbooks their students use for their classes?
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Jan 30, 2020 07:06
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I don't think SB50 will solve or even necessarily ameliorate the housing crisis, but the way we allocate land in cities in the US is loving stupid. Single-family detached homes don't have a place around major transit infrastructure, and whatever idiots show up at Atherton city council meetings shouldn't have a say otherwise.
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Jan 30, 2020 07:07
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Yes. It's absurd and honestly immoral, given the climate impact, that within walking distance of rail stations there are 750k single family homes with wide lawns. In any rationally planned city there would dense apartments housing orders of magnitude more people and giving them easy access to transit in those areas. This is a huge country with vast swathes of sparsely populated land. If you want to live with a giant lawn and drive everywhere you have plenty of options that aren't near major metro areas. Honestly, the entire idea of homeownership as an investment is socially and politically toxic and we'd be far better off if housing was treated like a car: something you buy because you need it for practical use, not because you want to use it as a tool to save up for retirement or as a way to build generational wealth. Japan does something along these lines. Fill Baptismal fucked around with this message at 07:19 on Jan 30, 2020 |
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Jan 30, 2020 07:13
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Kill Bristol posted:Yes. It's absurd and honestly immoral, given the climate impact, that within walking distance of rail stations there are 750k single family homes with wide lawns. In any rationally planned city there would dense apartments housing orders of magnitude more people and giving them easy access to transit in those areas. This is a huge country with vast swathes of sparsely populated land. If you want to live with a giant lawn and drive everywhere you have plenty of options that aren't near major metro areas. If you’re going to use climate change to make a moral argument for market rate development, then why not consider there are enough vacant homes in the Bay Area to house everyone who is homeless? Why not simply give everyone shelter and use the carbon savings from unnecessary construction to build sustainable transit and public housing in a way that doesn’t further gently caress over the working class?
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Jan 30, 2020 07:37
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Centrist Committee posted:If you’re going to use climate change to make a moral argument for market rate development, then why not consider there are enough vacant homes in the Bay Area to house everyone who is homeless? Why not simply give everyone shelter and use the carbon savings from unnecessary construction to build sustainable transit and public housing in a way that doesn’t further gently caress over the working class? It is like, peak california brain, to view overthrowing capitalism and doing away with private property as a more achievable and practical goal then building apartments near transit. But even if that happened tomorrow, we would still need to densify fast, unless you plan on mass population reductions somehow. Sprawling single family homes near transit are a bad use of land under any economic system!
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Jan 30, 2020 07:55
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imo "the cause of the problem is clear, but fixing the problem is hard, so let's ignore the solution and instead do something that doesn't address the problem at all" is pretty california/liberal brain
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Jan 30, 2020 08:44
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you have terminal suburb brain if "overthrow capitalism" is easier for you to imagine than "build apartments near transit" . how radical and fuckin' harcore you are is duly noted though. Fill Baptismal fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Jan 30, 2020 |
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Jan 30, 2020 09:07
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Centrist Committee posted:If you’re going to use climate change to make a moral argument for market rate development, then why not consider there are enough vacant homes in the Bay Area to house everyone who is homeless? Why not simply give everyone shelter and use the carbon savings from unnecessary construction to build sustainable transit and public housing in a way that doesn’t further gently caress over the working class? Public housing is good, but given that local governments obstruct new housing development and are the primary reason why more privately-funded housing isn't built, do you really think that they would be into requesting federal funding for new public housing?
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Jan 30, 2020 10:48
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"Should we kill single family zoning?" Yes. "Will it alleviate the housing crisis?" Absolutely not. "Well how can we do that, then?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqJbE1bvdgo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oeLnpAmmfI
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Jan 30, 2020 15:17
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Kill Bristol posted:The vacancy rate in LA metro area is about 4%. Compare that to some place like Dayton where it's around 11%. Thats the problem Im trying to get across to you. "The market" doesnt count a house as empty if its empty but owned. All of the empty investment properties are "not vacant" in that sense. Kill Bristol posted:rationally planned city there would dense apartments housing orders of magnitude more people You should move to Seattle. They built some 130-220 sq/ft places just for you. Of course the rent floor was adjusted to match those, and everything else went up, because thats what developers and landlord investment groups do, but you can keep on hating families living in houses either way. https://www.seattletimes.com/business/real-estate/seattles-newest-apartments-prison-cell-with-no-door-for-toilet/ quote:For $750, Seattle’s newest apartment is the size of a parking space You should also look at Hong Kong. Sounds like youd like it.
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Jan 30, 2020 16:25
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SB50 failed to pass  Eat poo poo Weiner, ya real estate ghoul
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Jan 30, 2020 17:17
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Maybe it’s helpful to ground the discussion in terms of something more concrete, like a hypothetical 5 story 100 unit apartment building replacing an existing surface parking lot. Fairly dense, efficient to build, going higher would require using costlier materials. Where is it legal under zoning code to construct such a building? What’s the break-even (not accounting for profit) cost per unit? What’s the difference between that price and what the local community can afford? If it’s not possible to construct new housing at a price that people threatened by displacement can afford, should we still do it? In the Bay Area it’s up to like 450k/unit now, which is already out of reach for the area median income. I think it’s helpful to imagine taking a trip on a metro rail line. For instance, BART stations exist in the Mission, the Rockridge neighborhood in Oakland, and Orinda on the other side of the hills. A dense former working class neighborhood wracked by gentrification, a wealthy SFH residential neighborhood, and a wealthy suburb. All three have good access to regional job centers and are benefiting from public infrastructure via BART, but contribute vastly different amounts of housing to the regional supply. The ability of the communities to pay market rate varies considerably. New housing can’t be built at a price point affordable to the people who need it most without subsidy, but taxes and fees from new development is the main source of funding for those subsidies. IMO, rejecting incremental improvements to wait for a “first the revolution” silver bullet plays right into NIMBY hands by ensuring the status quo is maintained as it has been for decades. Optics over outcomes.
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Jan 30, 2020 17:17
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Centrist Committee posted:SB50 failed to pass This is pretty clearly great news for the country! The more people are forced out of California by rising housing prices, the better Democrats will do in Senate and presidential elections in other states. Thanks to the people of California for making this sacrifice on behalf of our nation.
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Jan 30, 2020 17:27
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the incremental answer is public housing, the bill (in sf) is the community housing act, the candidate is jackie fielder (ps scott, try to keep that seat warm for her, tia)
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Jan 30, 2020 17:28
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So did it need an absolute majority to pass? Not just a plurality of members present, or whatever? Weird. (And more evidence that the California Senate needs to be like 2-3x bigger. Or switch to a unicameral legislature so we don't have all these bills that one house passes for show, assuming the other house is going to amend them into something useful. Or when one house passes a good bill and the lobbyists descend on it in the other house.)
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Jan 30, 2020 17:30
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Doc Hawkins posted:the incremental answer is public housing, the bill (in sf) is the community housing act, the candidate is jackie fielder (ps scott, try to keep that seat warm for her, tia) Looks like hot garbage to me.
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Jan 30, 2020 17:39
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Spazzle posted:Looks like hot garbage to me. To be honest it looks good to me and I'm a pro SB50 guy. Funding by taxing giant corporations is laughable compared to property taxes but it's California, what are you gonna do, you can't repeal prop 13 in SF only. Sure, opposing zoning reform makes you complicit in the dire condition of the homeless, no matter what other proposals you support, but that doesn't mean the proposals themselves are bad.
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Jan 30, 2020 17:43
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nrook posted:This is pretty clearly great news for the country! The more people are forced out of California by rising housing prices, the better Democrats will do in Senate and presidential elections in other states. Thanks to the people of California for making this sacrifice on behalf of our nation. Look I don't like it either, but it's clear Weiner can't get it done and private development just isn't feasible. We're just going to have to hold our noses and let local communities build pubic housing.
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Jan 30, 2020 17:44
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nrook posted:To be honest it looks good to me and I'm a pro SB50 guy. Funding by taxing giant corporations is laughable compared to property taxes but it's California, what are you gonna do, you can't repeal prop 13 in SF only. Sure, opposing zoning reform makes you complicit in the dire condition of the homeless, no matter what other proposals you support, but that doesn't mean the proposals themselves are bad. It looks like a laundry list of masturbatory demands, aims to make only 500 units a year , and addresses nothing about why housing is impossible to build. We have dipshits who fight tooth and nail to prevent anything from getting built, why is there the assumption that they will suddenly stand down because we're building affordable housing?
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Jan 30, 2020 17:47
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