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I really thought it was a great moment. It's such a cold, real wake up call for Picard.
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Feb 3, 2020 19:54
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Drink-Mix Man posted:I really thought it was a great moment. It's such a cold, real wake up call for Picard. They both played it perfectly too.
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Feb 3, 2020 19:57
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To be clear, I'm not saying the Federation did the right thing. And yes, I'm aware she specified species, that was much of the point of my post. The other half of the point was we don't know how many *worlds* those species represent, or again if it was any supposed "core" species doing it, like the Andorians. I'm not saying they made the right choice, I'm trying to say it's like if California decided it didn't want to be in the Union anymore because there was chat of letting Mexicans in en masse due to flooding or someshit. (Was gonna say Canadians to try and avoid Trump Wall comparisons, but the point of it being Romulans is that it's a supposed longtime enemy, and making it be... Iran, say, makes no geographical sense.)
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Feb 3, 2020 20:02
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I initially thought it was over-the-top but later liked it later on the more I thought about it, like the opposite of "fridge logic". I did not notice there was a swear in the speech while viewing the episode
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Feb 3, 2020 20:05
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mehall posted:To be clear, I'm not saying the Federation did the right thing. I'm not an American, so I don't have too much knowledge about this and couldn't find the kind of info I wanted online just now. But immediately after 9-11, did the US suspend any critical foreign aid to countries? Not specifically middle eastern ones, just in general? Because that seems like a closer analogy to what you're going for here.
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Feb 3, 2020 20:07
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Lizard Combatant posted:We're good. Yeah it's a brilliant combination of the newer style and the 60s bridge.
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Feb 3, 2020 20:09
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He also called her Kirsten when he strolled in and given her reaction, I don't think they're on that level of familiarity.
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Feb 3, 2020 20:09
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zoux posted:He also called her Kirsten when he strolled in and given her reaction, I don't think they're on that level of familiarity. Jean Luc... buddy... 1) Antagonistic media appearance 2) Overly familiar 3) Wild claims presented without evidence 4) Entitled (some may even say, "hubristic") attitude seasoned diplomat indeed
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Feb 3, 2020 20:15
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Lizard Combatant posted:Jean Luc... buddy... It's such a great scene, honestly. It plays on your familiarity and sympathy for Picard so that you're on his side for it, even though he's wrong and gets rightly called out for being the weird old man who came crawling back to the organization he left in a huff and just dragged publicly two days prior and expected to get his way because he's Jean-Luc Picard.
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Feb 3, 2020 20:23
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5) Suffering from a mental disorder resulting in emotional outbursts
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Feb 3, 2020 20:23
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nine-gear crow posted:It's such a great scene, honestly. It plays on your familiarity and sympathy for Picard so that you're on his side for it, even though he's wrong and gets rightly called out for being the weird old man who came crawling back to the organization he left in a huff and just dragged publicly two days prior and expected to get his way because he's Jean-Luc Picard. Absolutely. I like it when a scene actually remembers that no one thinks they're the bad guy. The Admiral would have been livid.
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Feb 3, 2020 20:28
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DrBouvenstein posted:Not that I think i will EVER come up (though with (minor cast spoiler that has been in the previews) Seven of Nine in the show there's a chance): The archive hologram seemed sentient too. I think it's just illegal to have synthetics in a body that can harm a person (holograms can be disrupted pretty easily.) DrBouvenstein posted:I don't know where I'm going with this other than I just want to see Robert Picardo play The Doctor again. Same. The man is just a treat.
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Feb 3, 2020 20:29
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Lizard Combatant posted:I'm not an American, so I don't have too much knowledge about this and couldn't find the kind of info I wanted online just now. I'm not american either, I was making a statistical guess you were given we're both posting on SA but oh well. No idea. e; and again, I'm not *defending* the choice portrayed in Picard, I'm just trying to clarify the numbers. We don't have a solid figure on the number of species in the Federation, but 14 could range anywhere from 14 worlds (or less if there's any shared planets like Kelpiens and Ba'ul) to a couple thousand worlds if it's a core member like Andoria, or even Vulcan - I can imagine there's plenty Vulcans who have little interest in helping their sister race.
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Feb 3, 2020 20:30
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Calling admirals by their first name is a long-established perk of being a captain, like when Picard notes, "Seems like you really wanna gently caress Commander Shelby, JP!"
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Feb 3, 2020 20:30
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mehall posted:I'm not american either, I was making a statistical guess you were given we're both posting on SA but oh well. Ok, but 14 out of thousands is still peanuts. To even account for say 20% total Federation population, each of those 14 species would have to be outbreeding the rest by like 50:1 Lizard Combatant fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Feb 3, 2020 |
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Feb 3, 2020 20:40
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I am on team No-Fucks-In-Trek but I will fully admit that the line was excellent and perfectly delivered and received. It was probably the best bit of acting on the entire show so far. Also, the other option here is actually that Picard just doesn't have all the information or the moral high ground here. There were almost certainly competing values and stakeholders at odds with legitimate well-meaning claims. Sometimes there is no one perfectly right answer, only a lovely compromise, and it's at those times when persons of good-will are most likely to disagree. I don't see anything different about the Federation so far at all, we know almost nothing about the Federation. As for Star Fleet, we have a cocky Admiral Emeritus and an equally cocky current Admiral who doesn't like him or want to put her neck out for him on some wild Tosk hunt. In All Good Things, basically the identical poo poo happened except it was his own beloved crew that almost universally said Bless His Heart instead of Admiral Not-Really-On-A-First-Name-Basis What's different other than Picard's assessment of the situation
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Feb 3, 2020 20:41
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If they were going a different way, I'd like it if she gave him the most run-down POS ship they have and no crew. But then I assume they're doing more of a "going rogue" story and that'd probably step on that.
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Feb 3, 2020 20:44
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Nullsmack posted:If they were going a different way, I'd like it if she gave him the most run-down POS ship they have and no crew. But then I assume they're doing more of a "going rogue" story and that'd probably step on that. Hey Jean-Luc, we found that shuttlecraft you improperly lent to Scotty twenty-five years ago. Clean it out and it’s yours to borrow. Do you want to take the damage waiver at the rate of 25 slips of Latinum per day?
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Feb 3, 2020 20:52
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zoux posted:Hello I would simply like one starship, one crew and as a bonus for you, I'll accept a demotion to Captain. When do I leave. “That poo poo might have worked a hundred years ago for cowboys like James Kirk, Picard, but I don’t see you rolling in with any whales.”
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Feb 3, 2020 20:55
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TheCenturion posted:“That poo poo might have worked a hundred years ago for cowboys like James Kirk, Picard, but I don’t see you rolling in with any whales.” It would've been cool if the admiral was a whale. Nullsmack posted:If they were going a different way, I'd like it if she gave him the most run-down POS ship they have and no crew. But then I assume they're doing more of a "going rogue" story and that'd probably step on that. Oh? Are Miranda classes still around.
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Feb 3, 2020 20:56
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Lizard Combatant posted:You're still justifying in universe politics. What is the show (ie, the writers/directors) trying to convey here with their characterisation of the Admiral, the music, camera framing, language, the choice of having Picard himself being on the opposing side? You say that, but the scene directly preceding this one has Picard walking up to the front desk and expecting to have everyone recognize him and let him in. It was a subversion of his expectation in the receptionist asking his name and where he's from that indicated that Picard may be too full of himself. As others have indicated Picard brought no evidence to the meeting and simply expected to be handed a ship and crew with him daining to accept a demotion because he's so generous. Even with that presumptuousness of Picard's part, the admiral still followed up with Starfleet intelligence about the matter he brought to her attention despite no evidence at all being presented.
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Feb 3, 2020 21:04
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Nitrousoxide posted:You say that, but the scene directly preceding this one has Picard walking up to the front desk and expecting to have everyone recognize him and let him in. It was a subversion of his expectation in the receptionist asking his name and where he's from that indicated that Picard may be too full of himself. Dude, I said he brought no evidence to the meeting. It's a scene I actually like and thought was very effective. The point you're quoting is in regards to how the show is framing the moral issue itself, not Picard's meeting tactics in that one scene specifically. That's just where we get most of the facts about the incident, there and the interview scene. Picard the character is in the right, even if he's totally blowing the meeting. Picard the concept is there arguing this issue (rather than say a background character on the news) to give it moral weight to the audience. Lizard Combatant fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Feb 3, 2020 |
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Feb 3, 2020 21:13
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It has only framed it as Picard Disagrees With The Admirality which is like the 999th time that's happened. We don't even have enough information to know more than the most hazy, basic outline of the issue.
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Feb 3, 2020 21:15
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The Bloop posted:It has only framed it as Picard Disagrees With The Admirality which is like the 999th time that's happened. Okay, if that's really all you got from it and you don't think the show is intentionally framing Picard as being in the right, then let's just agree to disagree.
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Feb 3, 2020 21:31
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I just hope all this poo poo goes someplace positive in the end
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Feb 3, 2020 21:33
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Lizard Combatant posted:Absolutely. This is something The Expanse does extremely well. Everyone is trying to do the right thing.
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Feb 3, 2020 21:33
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Tighclops posted:I just hope all this poo poo goes someplace positive in the end Me too pal.
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Feb 3, 2020 21:33
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It reads to me like it was the politically expedient choice. I don't take from it that the federation is corrupt and grim-dark now, just that Picard and Star Fleet had a falling out over the ideals of the Federation- self preservation versus charity. The existance of a quasi slave race of simulants is more of a problematic development for me than the decision not to help the romulans at the cost of federation unity.
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Feb 3, 2020 21:38
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Dietrich posted:The existance of a quasi slave race of simulants is more of a problematic development for me than the decision not to help the romulans at the cost of federation unity. I mean that's what Maddox was trying to do back in TNG days, apparently with the full support of Starfleet brass. They accept Data into Starfleet, presumably meaning they consider him sentient, and then change their mind and want to take him apart against his will. And of course Voyager had the EMH holograms on mining duty. Synthetic life forms have always had it rough in the federation.
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Feb 3, 2020 21:45
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Echo Chamber posted:Fans who want utopian Trek are living in a Fukuyama "end of history" mindset. I personally do not think that Star Trek's Earth/Federation needs to be perfect, but I do strongly believe it should be a substantively more just society than the one we live in, because A) I think this is a key element to the Star Trek setting (and if you don't accept this element, I would ask why you are writing a Trek story in the first place rather than choosing or creating a different setting) and B) I think it is good for at least one setting to attempt to portray what a better society would look like and how it might work. I don't want Star Trek's Earth to be Space America. I can deal with rear end in a top hat admirals and I can even accept that they managed to get their way this time when it came to Romulan policy, but honestly what I found more disappointing in terms of setting were the little details about the workers at Mars. Why do they have bad food? Why are they feeling overworked? Are these just lazy writing shortcuts or do the writers/producers deliberately want to convey that 24th century workers are trapped in wage slavery just the same as 21st century workers?
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Feb 3, 2020 21:47
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Yeah, this seems to be taking the “non-organic rights” argument that has popped up occasionally in Trek over the years to its logical conclusion.
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Feb 3, 2020 21:47
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Dietrich posted:It reads to me like it was the politically expedient choice. I don't take from it that the federation is corrupt and grim-dark now, just that Picard and Star Fleet had a falling out over the ideals of the Federation- self preservation versus charity. Just to be clear, it's a refusal to committing any ships to help evacuate a planet about to be engulfed by a sun. It's not financial aid or military aid, it'll have a direct impact on how many people live or die. I'd argue this would have been unthinkable in previous iterations of Star Trek, a view shared by Picard in this show. marktheando posted:I mean that's what Maddox was trying to do back in TNG days, apparently with the full support of Starfleet brass. They accept Data into Starfleet, presumably meaning they consider him sentient, and then change their mind and want to take him apart against his will. And of course Voyager had the EMH holograms on mining duty. Synthetic life forms have always had it rough in the federation. This is more of a suitable moral quandary for this type of show too. It's not an easily quantifiable line in the sand as to where something stops being a mere tool, their resemblance to humans not withstanding.
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Feb 3, 2020 21:48
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I can deal with rear end in a top hat admirals and I can even accept that they managed to get their way this time when it came to Romulan policy, but honestly what I found more disappointing in terms of setting were the little details about the workers at Mars. Why do they have bad food? Why are they feeling overworked? Are these just lazy writing shortcuts or do the writers/producers deliberately want to convey that 24th century workers are trapped in wage slavery just the same as 21st century workers? Yeah, I'm going with lazy writing in that part. It felt like being in the same spirit as Deep Space Nine's ration scenes when the replicators were down due to an attack, except without any justification. It's a shame, because F8 was great.
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Feb 3, 2020 21:51
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It was definitely thoughtless short hand for "dock workers".
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Feb 3, 2020 21:52
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Word of God from Picard in First Contact is that the federation contains over a thousand planets and around 150 member species.
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Feb 3, 2020 21:52
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Arglebargle III posted:Word of God from Picard in First Contact is that the federation contains over a thousand planets and around 150 member species. They've been busy it seems.
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Feb 3, 2020 21:54
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 "I didn't know Romulans could be so hot." Pause for laughter. "Me either." Pause for further laughter and applause. DaveKap fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Feb 3, 2020 |
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Feb 3, 2020 21:55
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I can deal with rear end in a top hat admirals and I can even accept that they managed to get their way this time when it came to Romulan policy, but honestly what I found more disappointing in terms of setting were the little details about the workers at Mars. Why do they have bad food? Why are they feeling overworked? Are these just lazy writing shortcuts or do the writers/producers deliberately want to convey that 24th century workers are trapped in wage slavery just the same as 21st century workers? Well the school on earth where a couple of their kids were at looked very fancy in the Short Trek. I read it as being a tough job, far from home, with few comforts for sure, but one that people would want to do for reasons other than poverty. Like being on an oil rig. The one dad said he wouldn't be able to get back to earth for a year. Though this doesn't make much sense with how easy travelling between Earth and Mars must be in Star Trek, but I think that was the intention.
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Feb 3, 2020 21:58
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I can deal with rear end in a top hat admirals and I can even accept that they managed to get their way this time when it came to Romulan policy, but honestly what I found more disappointing in terms of setting were the little details about the workers at Mars. Why do they have bad food? Why are they feeling overworked? Are these just lazy writing shortcuts or do the writers/producers deliberately want to convey that 24th century workers are trapped in wage slavery just the same as 21st century workers? Totally agree here. I mean the only real explanation I can muster is that post-scarcity doesn't mean you can have anything you want and there are some things (bigger housing, better location, holosuite hours, reservations at Sisko's, whatever) require you to do something distasteful for society to earn Reputation Credits or whatever, and there is some important reason why that job is somewhat of a hardship posting. This is all fanwank backsplanation of course. It's bad writing because you shouldn't have to make excuses for this poo poo.
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Feb 3, 2020 22:02
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galenanorth posted:Yeah, I'm going with lazy writing in that part. It felt like being in the same spirit as Deep Space Nine's ration scenes when the replicators were down due to an attack, except without any justification. It's a shame, because F8 was great. TBQH, in a post-scarcity society, these sorts of folks would almost be cosplayers or SCA/Ren Faire folks. Just picture some guys showing up a nice open-plan office with coffee machines and monitoring instruments for the robots that actually build poo poo, and they're like 'No, this is NOT what I signed up for! I was promised dirt, and grime, and bitching about the bad food! And there's supposed to be at LEAST one industrial accident during my stint! It's in the sign-up forms!'
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Feb 3, 2020 22:06
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