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chiasaur11 posted:An ace isn't defined by "more than a handful of kills". An ace is defined by getting at least five kills, which, if I remember right, Shiro didn't manage in 08th proper prior to the Norris fight. What is the actual difference between "more than a handful (i.e. five) of kills" and "at least five kills"? I'm also pretty sure he gets more than 5 kills in the first couple of episodes, though I'd have to double check. chiasaur11 posted:While Terry Sanders Jr is technically an ace, with five MS kills to his credit, he describes Norris as "An Ace" with a metaphorical capital, the sort of pilot who reshapes the battlefield. Shiro, explicitly, isn't that sort of ace. He's an above average pilot, but no general is going to go "And of course, this whole plan depends on Shiro", the way Bright does with Amuro or Rustal does with Julieta. He's just a soldier doing a bit better than expected. He absolutely is that kind of ace though, and shows it in the very first episode, whether a general recognizes it or not. His presence and charisma can change the battlefield around him, and he does exactly that in the fight against Norris alone after the fight changes from "Norris v the 08th MS Team" to "Norris v Shiro", and he's allowed to have any skill again. Argas posted:Well, presumably they could've just deployed n-jammers in space so nukes weren't an option anymore. But it's clear that Blue Cosmos didn't intend to back down and basically chose to be proactive in a really lovely situation. Yea, there's no real reason that N-Jammers couldn't have just been deployed in and around the actual plants themselves instead of on Earth, since they have an effective radius of hundreds or possibly thousands of kilometers and any nuke that hit inside their radius would just be a regular missile at worst.
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Feb 11, 2020 10:17
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Personally, I won't accept a protagonist/viewpoint character who gets more than two confirmed kills. I'll accept three if they die in the process and leave a narrative arc abruptly ended, though. ImpAtom posted:Naturals have undergone a period of absolute horror. Within the period of about 80 years they've seen a world war, two pandemics, a complete upending of society, and a massive ever-increasing divide between the haves and have nots which takes the form of space castles and super genes. People who then dropped no-power bombs on the Earth. That is not to say it justifies space racism but it wasn't just people being dicks but people being increasingly afraid of the wealthy motherfuckers making themselves god-kings in their space palaces and ruling the Earth through their economic control. This is of course stoked by the wealthy motherfuckers on Earth who are upset that they no longer can enjoy all the fruits of being absurdly wealthy because mommy and daddy didn't want to genetically engineer them. (i.e: Muruta Azreal's entire motivation.) That said you can do a lot of cultural adaptation in eighty years.
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Feb 11, 2020 10:28
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As I've said many times before SEED manages to be the most hosed up Gundam setting in spite of there being five different continuities that are explicitly post apocalyptic in nature
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Feb 11, 2020 10:54
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Old engineering adage; If it looks stupid, and it works, it's not stupid They take up the entire space of their rotational path but use less than 50% of that space. They'd be much better off with giant Stanford Tori.
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Feb 11, 2020 10:56
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O'Neill cylinders would probably be more resistant against earthnoid missile attack to begin with.
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Feb 11, 2020 10:58
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ImpAtom posted:SEED History Lesson drrockso20 posted:As I've said many times before SEED manages to be the most hosed up Gundam setting in spite of there being five different continuities that are explicitly post apocalyptic in nature Honestly, SEED's backstory sounds like an edgy 15-year old's take on UC History to me. Throwing a space colony into Australia sounds lame, you say? Why, let's add superviruses, nukes, destroying Earth's ways of producing energy and way higher death tolls!
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Feb 11, 2020 11:23
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Considering UC history now features mass cannibalism, I'd say Cosmic Era still has a ways to go in edginess.
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Feb 11, 2020 11:28
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Nessus posted:O'Neill cylinders would probably be more resistant against earthnoid missile attack to begin with. As I discussed before, a properly built O'Neill colony would basically be all but immune to any weapons known to man besides really exotic stuff like a RKV or a Gamma Ray Burst, if mostly because of just how thick and durable they'd have to be built to deal with asteroids, space debris, and cosmic radiation in order to be a permanent habitat for humanity
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Feb 11, 2020 11:40
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drrockso20 posted:As I discussed before, a properly built O'Neill colony would basically be all but immune to any weapons known to man besides really exotic stuff like a RKV or a Gamma Ray Burst, if mostly because of just how thick and durable they'd have to be built to deal with asteroids, space debris, and cosmic radiation in order to be a permanent habitat for humanity The unspoken profound miracle of the UC is that they built all the drat things.
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Feb 11, 2020 11:44
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Raxivace posted:Considering UC history now features mass cannibalism, I'd say Cosmic Era still has a ways to go in edginess. Mass cannibalism comes after the space wars, though. It's a consequence The thing about the SEED timeline versus the UC is that, for the UC, what's past is prologue. Even when you get the Origin telling the story of the leadup to 0079 and all the hell that came with it, it's a story of how it could all fall so far. The One Year War is the fulcrum of history, the point where it went from "kinda crappy" to full on FUBAR. (But even so!) In SEED, most of the past clusterfucks are just... more clusterfucks. Where the UC revolves around therefores and dependent chains (poor sent to space therefore Zeon therefore colonial tensions therefore One Year War), SEED's backstory is a bunch of "And". (AND the supervirus came back AND religion is weaker because aliens AND WWIII went nuclear AND...) The UC may be bleaker on the net, but it feels more organic. SEED just kept tossing bad things in until the whole timeline was full.
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Feb 11, 2020 12:32
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How often do colonies get straight up destroyed by conventional weaponry? Colony drops are a pretty convenient 2 birds with one stone way of getting around that problem
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Feb 11, 2020 12:32
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Nessus posted:This seems to hold up considering how you still have large intact chunks of the loving things in places where Zeon dropped them. Wouldn't it be possible to make them thick enough to endure a GRB, even? Or at least guarantee the production of Hulk Newtypes? Well the thing about a GRB is less about it damaging the colony itself to any major degree structurally, it's more that it would probably fry the electronics, not to mention would kill basically anything inside the colony too(it's one of the few things that could realistically kill everything on Earth that wouldn't also just blow up the planet)
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Feb 11, 2020 12:35
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ninjewtsu posted:How often do colonies get straight up destroyed by conventional weaponry? Colony drops are a pretty convenient 2 birds with one stone way of getting around that problem You know how in the first episode of the original Gundam one of the Zaku's blowing up punched a sizable hole in Side 7, in a realistic O'Neill colony that explosion would probably barely leave much in the way of a dent in the superstructure, let alone blast a big hole in it, as even the thinnest sections are probably at least a dozen meters of highly durable material(something a lot of people fail to realize is that explosives can have problems penetrating material past a surprisingly small amount unless designed specifically to penetrate them)
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Feb 11, 2020 12:42
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drrockso20 posted:As I discussed before, a properly built O'Neill colony would basically be all but immune to any weapons known to man besides really exotic stuff like a RKV or a Gamma Ray Burst, if mostly because of just how thick and durable they'd have to be built to deal with asteroids, space debris, and cosmic radiation in order to be a permanent habitat for humanity Or one idiot teenager with a hip-mounted particle cannon who didn't heed their superior's orders not to fire the loving thing inside the colony.
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Feb 11, 2020 14:04
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amigolupus posted:Honestly, SEED's backstory sounds like an edgy 15-year old's take on UC History to me. Throwing a space colony into Australia sounds lame, you say? Why, let's add superviruses, nukes, destroying Earth's ways of producing energy and way higher death tolls! The global devastation caused by Zeon's attempted colony drops was significantly worse than all the horrible poo poo that happened in SEED's past.
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Feb 11, 2020 15:11
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Or one idiot teenager with a hip-mounted particle cannon who didn't heed their superior's orders not to fire the loving thing inside the colony. I feel like you're citing a specific example here, though I'm not sure which one
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Feb 11, 2020 15:35
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drrockso20 posted:I feel like you're citing a specific example here, though I'm not sure which one Kira Yamato using the Launcher Strike's particle cannon inside Heliopolis.
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Feb 11, 2020 15:36
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Kira Yamato using the Launcher Strike's particle cannon inside Heliopolis. In fairness to the colony design, the reason it destroyed the colony was not the hole in the side, but because he hit the spinal axle which I guess lead to the thing spinning itself apart? At least, I think that's how that happened.
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Feb 11, 2020 15:56
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Warmachine posted:In fairness to the colony design, the reason it destroyed the colony was not the hole in the side, but because he hit the spinal axle which I guess lead to the thing spinning itself apart? I don't think so. Iiirc, he "merely" punched a big hole through the outer layer and it just sort of unraveled as it decompressed.
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Feb 11, 2020 15:59
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If I remember right the colony collapse was actually caused by Mu going ham with the Archangel's main guns on the Ginn's the were fighting, Kira just caused some minor damage relatively speaking
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Feb 11, 2020 16:42
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Seemlar posted:If I remember right the colony collapse was actually caused by Mu going ham with the Archangel's main guns on the Ginn's the were fighting, Kira just caused some minor damage relatively speaking No, the chain of events was Murrue screaming "NO, DONT SHOOT THAT loving THING IN HERE!" and Kira vaporizing a big hole in the outer hull was the root cause of the colony coming apart at the seams. The fighting didn't help, but it most definitely was caused by the Launcher Striker.
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Feb 11, 2020 17:54
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Raxivace posted:Considering UC history now features mass cannibalism, I'd say Cosmic Era still has a ways to go in edginess. Kanos posted:The global devastation caused by Zeon's attempted colony drops was significantly worse than all the horrible poo poo that happened in SEED's past. Sorry, my bad for not being able to get my idea across better.  Chiasaur actually put it way better than me. In the UC timeline, the worst thing that happened before the series began was the colony drop, and it's only after that when worse things kept happening over time. In CE, too many terrible things happened all at once prior to the events of SEED, so it just felt like an edgy parody to me.
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Feb 11, 2020 19:12
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https://twitter.com/truongasm/status/1227273601855844354?s=20
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Feb 11, 2020 21:36
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Thinking about SEED, you know what it could really use from the original Gundam? A Hayato. I'm not kidding. SEED's central conflict revolves around the privileged superhumans against the "normal" humans, but it has very little sympathy for the regular people who aren't fond of being treated as obsolete. Hayato's role as the guy who can't catch up is perfect for countering that. If one of Kira's useless friends was a mech pilot, it would allow for more scenes that actually play with the ideas in an interesting way. Someone having to work three times as hard to be half as good is sympathetic, and having an underdog get occasional wins is generally satisfying.
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Feb 11, 2020 23:22
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chiasaur11 posted:Thinking about SEED, you know what it could really use from the original Gundam? SEED does have that. Sai and Tolle. Sai just gets poo poo on nonstop while Tolle is decapitated by Athrun.
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Feb 11, 2020 23:27
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chiasaur11 posted:Thinking about SEED, you know what it could really use from the original Gundam? Well, I mean, Sai exists. Sort of.
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Feb 11, 2020 23:27
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I only still remember Sai because the first newtype magazine I bought called him Ssigh which looked like the dumbest poo poo
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Feb 12, 2020 00:26
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I remember Sai getting justifiably mad that Kira slept with his girlfriend and tried to punch him for it, only for Kira to sidestep and put him in an armlock. Yet somehow no one in their group of friends ever commented on it again, or ostracized Kira for being a tremendous douchebag. It was like the writers wanted to show Kira had flaws, but didn't have it in them to show the consequences for it.
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Feb 12, 2020 00:33
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amigolupus posted:I remember Sai getting justifiably mad that Kira slept with his girlfriend and tried to punch him for it, only for Kira to sidestep and put him in an armlock. Yet somehow no one in their group of friends ever commented on it again, or ostracized Kira for being a tremendous douchebag. It was like the writers wanted to show Kira had flaws, but didn't have it in them to show the consequences for it. You can't call Kira a "douchebag" for what happened. He was in a tremendously vulnerable place and was preyed on by a horribly traumatized girl.
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Feb 12, 2020 00:39
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Gripweed posted:You can't call Kira a "douchebag" for what happened. He was in a tremendously vulnerable place and was preyed on by a horribly traumatized girl. I don’t think that’s a level of maturity you should expect from the teens in the show, though.
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Feb 12, 2020 00:42
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Neddy Seagoon posted:No, the chain of events was Murrue screaming "NO, DONT SHOOT THAT loving THING IN HERE!" and Kira vaporizing a big hole in the outer hull was the root cause of the colony coming apart at the seams. The fighting didn't help, but it most definitely was caused by the Launcher Striker. Not quite. Kira does put a hole or two in the outer layer in one fight, but what actually causes the collapse is what Warmachine is slightly misremembering - Kira kills a GINN carrying anti-ship missiles, which then proceed to fire and fly off in a random direction and complete the destruction of the central support whatever. Hell, while Kira caused some damage, the vast majority of the damage that ultimately caused the collapse was entirely ZAFT's fault. Or in simpler terms, Episode 2 is the one where Kira's firing off the Launcher pack, while the collapse actually happens at the end of Episode 3... when he's using Sword. Of course you could reasonably argue that the Archangel contributed to the damage too, what with it firing its main beam guns inside a colony, but we're not actually SHOWN where those shots go other than just missing suits.
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Feb 12, 2020 00:50
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I found it hilarious that in Cross Rays they just sidestep the whole Flay/Kira/Sai nonsense. It happens and Sai just... kinda gets over it immediately.
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Feb 12, 2020 00:50
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It's also worth remembering that his friends knew they were highly dependent on Kira as their primary line of defense, and that he had every reason to side with the people attacking him instead of them so they really weren't in a position to be too confrontational. They also had other poo poo to worry about, so it probably wasn't their primary concern, douchey as it was.
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Feb 12, 2020 00:54
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If I recall correctly, in side material after Destiny Kira does finally drop the faux-pacifist mentality and sides fully with Lacus' ZAFT faction, because they're the only ones who aren't completely loving evil by that point.
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Feb 12, 2020 00:57
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Bloody Pom posted:If I recall correctly, in side material after Destiny Kira does finally drop the faux-pacifist mentality and sides fully with Lacus' ZAFT faction, because they're the only ones who aren't completely loving evil by that point. That’s probably the least unrealistic thing that happens; no teenage boy is going to risk cutting off his sex supply by taking a moral stand.
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Feb 12, 2020 01:09
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Gripweed posted:You can't call Kira a "douchebag" for what happened. He was in a tremendously vulnerable place and was preyed on by a horribly traumatized girl. While that's true, I think the scene had Sai asking how could Kira steal his girlfriend, and Kira responding along the lines of "Well Flay likes me now, so just deal with it." I think Kira might have mentioned something about how he's the only one who can protect the ship and Flay too? I could be wrong though. Bloody Pom posted:I found it hilarious that in Cross Rays they just sidestep the whole Flay/Kira/Sai nonsense. It happens and Sai just... kinda gets over it immediately.  This sounds like something they could have done for the HD remaster.
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Feb 12, 2020 04:02
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amigolupus posted:
Comedy option; Sai gets one good look at what Flay's really like and just goes "Y'know what?... Nevermind...  "
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Feb 12, 2020 04:09
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Midjack posted:That’s probably the least unrealistic thing that happens; no teenage boy is going to risk cutting off his sex supply by taking a moral stand. His relationship with Lacus always came off as really painstakingly chaste. They couldn't even be super loving weird about each other which is the true failing of that pairing option for me. At least Lunamaria and Shinn actually seemed like they were in to eachother in a way other than Shinn being a knight for her.
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Feb 12, 2020 06:10
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Tulalip Tulips posted:At least Lunamaria and Shinn actually seemed like they were in to eachother in a way other than Shinn being a knight for her. While I can sort of understand that they got together because they're both stuck in an extremely lovely situation, I still find them hooking up completely hilarious since from Luna's perspective, Shinn killed Meyrin along with Athrun.
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Feb 12, 2020 10:49
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Let's be real, they're together because of their va's
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Feb 12, 2020 11:59
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