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nine-gear crow posted:Sorry, I meant to quote the post above you. I'm kind of multi-tasking ATM so I clicked the wrong button and started typing. I suck. you don't suck. you're a pretty cool person.
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Feb 15, 2020 05:08
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ashpanash posted:I kind of think he was being an idiot. A noble, stuck in his ways, nonagenarian idiot. It requires us to assume he's forgotten the time constraints, the danger to his crew and his entire urgent mission because he all of a sudden needs to teach this one bar full of Romulans a lesson in an explicitly provocative and confrontational manner? Right now, not when he first passed the bar and its sign. And it just coincidentally leads to the very outcome he came to planet in the first place for? I think you're gravitating towards this because how the scene is actually played has some icky implications.
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Feb 15, 2020 05:11
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Like I said, I came to the same conclusions you did initially, then changed my opinion on rewatch. I ain't saying I'm right about it, just that that's how it came across. Of note, I actually wanted to rewatch this episode. ashpanash fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Feb 15, 2020 |
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Feb 15, 2020 05:18
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upgunned shitpost posted:you don't suck. you're a pretty cool person. Thank you kindly Star Trek posting friend 
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Feb 15, 2020 05:22
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the idiocy is derived from the fact that picard carries some fairly naive and antiquated notions. openly hostile crowds are only gonna tolerate your liberal unity bullshit if you've got the phaser banks to back them up. there's no way a decapitation was the expected or desired outcome, that's not in picard's character, but while he's aware of his physical limitations he's definitely blind to his... reduced social standing, I suppose. it's something that came up in the disco thread once, the entire bridge crew of the enterprise were privileged failsons who'd be entirely out of their element dealing with everyday people. now picard is everyday people.
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Feb 15, 2020 05:27
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ashpanash posted:Like I said, I came to the same conclusions you did initially, then changed my opinion on rewatch. I ain't saying I'm right about it, just that that's how it came across. Sure, I just don't see him to be the kind of dude to risk his crew and urgent mission in a pissing contest just to tell a dozen people what to do on their own drat planet. Especially when there's only one foreseeable outcome for provoking a bunch of arm band wearing neonationalists. He knows Elnor, he knows his traditions. It only makes sense to me as a way to ensure he needs rescuing, and that's exactly what happens.
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Feb 15, 2020 05:28
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upgunned shitpost posted:the idiocy is derived from the fact that picard carries some fairly naive and antiquated notions. openly hostile crowds are only gonna tolerate your liberal unity bullshit if you've got the phaser banks to back them up. Except we see them interact with everyday people outside the safety net of the ship quite often and they're generally as non confrontational as possible, it's kind of their thing. They'll stick to their principles if pressured to do something they object to, but they're not going to pick a fight unprovoked that could endanger a mission or the lives of others. But "priveledged failsons" is a hot take, I'll give you that. This all seems like a lot of head canon (urgh) retconning to characters we've seen in extremely similar situations before just to absolve the show of writing Picard as willing to be manipulative to get what he wants for some reason. Why is him engineering the situation (decapitation may not have been expected, but violence surely) such a stretch but naive stupidity isn't? Is it because one is morally questionable while the other is still "good" even if diminished? I'd argue the latter requires a level of social naivety and disregard for his crew's safety that is just as out of character. He's not so stupid that he can't read a room. Or... Maybe it's just a bit of a dodgy scene that probably wasn't too well thought out.
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Feb 15, 2020 05:54
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I don't disagree about the scene, but feel it works because picard thinks he's gonna make a speech, maybe provoke something of a confrontation and have kid katana realize it's a righteous quest. also scoring points as an absentee, yet cool space dad. he's no longer swinging that galaxy class dick though, so an important member of the community gets his head cut off behind some bullshit. it's absolutely in character, one of the most powerful men in the galaxy, now a bumbling old codger wanting to speak with the manager. it kinda rules.
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Feb 15, 2020 06:03
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upgunned shitpost posted:I don't disagree about the scene, but feel it works because picard thinks he's gonna make a speech, maybe provoke something of a confrontation and have kid katana realize it's a righteous quest. also scoring points as an absentee, yet cool space dad. he's no longer swinging that galaxy class dick though, so an important member of the community gets his head cut off behind some bullshit. it's absolutely in character, one of the most powerful men in the galaxy, now a bumbling old codger wanting to speak with the manager. So he's simultaneously engineering a confrontation and a collosal idiot? Kid Katana doesn't care about righteous quests, only lost causes. Being threatened was absolutely part of the plan. That's why he throws the sign down, he's making the first hostile move. That's why he sits and yells for a waiter he knows won't serve him, he's baiting them. And they take the bait and he let's them get riled up. poo poo he only says a few words in protest and makes sure to drop the "promise" line we spent the cold open establishing to piss them off. Lizard Combatant fucked around with this message at 06:27 on Feb 15, 2020 |
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Feb 15, 2020 06:09
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Lol Romulan samurai is a stand in for audience members who grew up with TNG. Picard was a father figure and role model of impeccable moral integrity, one who was a part of our lives as children— telling educational stories, making the best and often most difficult decision in every situation, and leading by example in never conceding his principles. Then he disappeared for 20 years and the world went to total poo poo. Now he’s back and he’s telling us no, you don’t kill people you fucks.
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Feb 15, 2020 06:28
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mfny posted:Yeah, its just so .. instantly offputting. It looks like the cargo bay or some other utility section of a much larger ship actually now that I think about it. So, here's La Sirena:  Weirdly, the more I look at this, the more I like it. It's basically the starship equivalent of a studio apartment, which works perfectly for Rios in regards to his character and status. You can totally imagine him hauling cargo for a short-term gig with this setup. Plus, there are separate rooms connecting to the space, looking in the background and maybe that lower deck area (accessible by a handy lil' stepladder). edit: I also dig the likely-unintentional callback to the lovely Merchantman bridge from ST3, which literally was just consoles and chairs in front of some crates 
Cross-Section fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Feb 15, 2020 |
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Feb 15, 2020 06:41
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Delthalaz posted:Lol Romulan samurai is a stand in for audience members who grew up with TNG. Picard was a father figure and role model of impeccable moral integrity, one who was a part of our lives as children— telling educational stories, making the best and often most difficult decision in every situation, and leading by example in never conceding his principles. Then he disappeared for 20 years and the world went to total poo poo. Now he’s back and he’s telling us no, you don’t kill people you fucks. Hah! Or the Federation is a stand in for the franchise going to poo poo. "But I can't do it without you Elnor, I'm an
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Feb 15, 2020 06:46
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I see a line between the interview, walking into star fleet headquarters demanding a ship, the initial conversation with rafi, tossing out orders on the new boat, et al. there's a great deal of ego and self-importance being carried. actions of a man who forgets himself, this time it spirals into relatively pointless violence. pointless violence that is important to the plot while also advancing it. every quest needs someone who's hell with a knife or it's gonna be lame. kid katana cares about a lot of things, a better relationship with space dad is one of them. he's just kinda guarded and weird cuz while all the other nineteen year-olds were getting laid and poo poo... he studied the blade. breaking down the rather third-wayish sensibilities of tng through the actions of an out of touch boomer feels intentional. mostly due to the repetition. killing a muthafucka just to do it feels out of character.
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Feb 15, 2020 06:49
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Also the ship is fine. Yes it's very mass effect, but it's fine. I do hope we get to see some big starships too though.
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Feb 15, 2020 06:49
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Cross-Section posted:Weirdly, the more I look at this, the more I like it. It's basically the starship equivalent of a studio apartment You know, since I found myself really liking the description of the Nebula class as a "hatchback Galaxy class"... I think I can find it in me to like the description of La Sirena as a studio apartment.
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Feb 15, 2020 06:49
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upgunned shitpost posted:breaking down the rather third-wayish sensibilities of tng through the actions of an out of touch boomer feels intentional. mostly due to the repetition. I think you and I have a very different understanding of third way politics.
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Feb 15, 2020 06:53
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I kind if get the impression La Sirena is kind of deliberately nondescript 'cause they don't want to do starship porn and keep the attention strictly on the characters. With the added bonus that it is probably cheaper/easier with such a mandate.
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Feb 15, 2020 07:06
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Lizard Combatant posted:Also the ship is fine. Yes it's very mass effect, but it's fine. Show the F! Show the F! Show the F! I continue to chant as I am dragged out of the building.
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Feb 15, 2020 07:10
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nine-gear crow posted:Show the F! Show the F! Show the F! I continue to chant as I am dragged out of the building. Respects not paid. Sad.
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Feb 15, 2020 07:15
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Drink-Mix Man posted:I kind if get the impression La Sirena is kind of deliberately nondescript 'cause they don't want to do starship porn and keep the attention strictly on the characters. Also it's an unregistered freighter/courier probably converted from a civilian ship that was already nondescript to begin with, so it probably shouldn't be flashy even if people expect flash from their hero ships. This also makes it easier to replace should the plot go in that direction. The Stargazer is still out there, just saying.
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Feb 15, 2020 07:18
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Lizard Combatant posted:Respects not paid. Sad. Subscribe to my Patreon to raise money for me to fly to Hollywood and follow Alex Kurtzman around everywhere he goes with a megaphone shouting "Show the Enterprise-F you coward!".
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Feb 15, 2020 07:19
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Hahaha jesus christ I just watched the Short Trek where they frat hazed a recent victim of extreme trauma cadet by giving her a head injury and telling her that her husband was again about to die. I hope that wasn't a live weapon at least. Hey don't worry don't worry, you got in. Stop crying.
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Feb 15, 2020 07:36
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Starfleet's got a weird tradition of psychologically torturing their cadets to make sure they can handle a stressful situation - it shows up in a couple of episodes. I blame the Vulcan influence - it seems like something they'd come up with.
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Feb 15, 2020 07:42
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Angry Salami posted:Starfleet's got a weird tradition of psychologically torturing their cadets to make sure they can handle a stressful situation - it shows up in a couple of episodes. I blame the Vulcan influence - it seems like something they'd come up with. Where they don't know it's a test? Got any more examples? I don't remember. I'm always interested in this kind of poo poo that wouldn't get past a university ethics board or even pass in today's military.
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Feb 15, 2020 07:51
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Lizard Combatant posted:Where they don't know it's a test? Coming of Age. Season 1 TNG. Part of Wesley's Starfleet entrance exam involves the waiting room he's in suddenly bursting into a catastrophic fireball, critically wounding one person and trapping another. The trapped dude can be saved easier than the injured dude, but is too scared to move so Wesley has to abandon him in order to save the untrapped but injured person, leaving them behind to horrifically burn to death. He's then told it was all a test and no one was in any real danger, leaving Wesley rightly traumatized.
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Feb 15, 2020 08:04
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nine-gear crow posted:Coming of Age. Season 1 TNG. Part of Wesley's Starfleet entrance exam involves the waiting room he's in suddenly bursting into a catastrophic fireball, wound one person and trapping another. The trapped dude is too scared to move so Wesley has to abandon him in order to save the untrapped but injured person, leaving them behind to horrifically burn to death. Hahaha loving hell... Terrible. e: okay I looked it up and he is literally in the waiting room for said psych test, that he's been preparing for and is the reason for being there. It's still a little hosed up, but he knew he was there for a gruelling test at least. Lizard Combatant fucked around with this message at 08:24 on Feb 15, 2020 |
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Feb 15, 2020 08:06
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Arguably there's also the Kobayashi Maru. There's even a version for bridge officers where you have to order the black guy to kill himself because the robot isn't there, even though we've never seen a "real" situation play out like that as far as I remember.
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Feb 15, 2020 08:29
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ashpanash posted:Arguably there's also the Kobayashi Maru. Oh I've got no problem with hard choice test scenarios. Troi getting her command rank was a pretty neat episode, she didn't need to think she'd actually killed Geordie for the weight of the responsibly she's accepting to sink in.
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Feb 15, 2020 08:37
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HD DAD posted:Hell, if you believe YouTube (or even SA), there’s been no good Star Trek. After reading this and 2 other related threads I get only this vibe. And it is sad.
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Feb 15, 2020 12:53
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Everyone doing the Kobayashi Maru knows it's a training sim. But by that point, they're 3-4 years into the Academy (and Saavik was a Lieutenant, so she was in like a post-graduate command class), the cadets feel smart as hell, and have done hundreds of such sims with scenarios they could always resolve and "win." So you throw someone in a sim they can't beat and see if they get angry, if they give up and leave the freighter to die, if they go out guns blazing, etc. And nothing is really the wrong answer so much as a direction for further training and study.
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Feb 15, 2020 14:59
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Lizard Combatant posted:He doesn't throw the sign off because of principles, he throws it off and sits down to order a drink to provoke exactly the kind of reaction he got, to get Elnor to have to step in. He didn't get what he wanted at the nunery, so he engineered a situation to force Elnor's hand. Which is exactly why he gets upset when Elnor shows up and kills the dudes. His little stunt just got 3 guys killed, when all he wanted was for Elnor to realize Picard needs him.
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Feb 15, 2020 15:04
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Dietrich posted:Which is exactly why he gets upset when Elnor shows up and kills the dudes. His little stunt just got 3 guys killed, when all he wanted was for Elnor to realize Picard needs him. I mean he picked a fight with a bar of arm band wearing neonationalists, to get the assistance of a hot headed young elf ninja. He must have expected a violent confrontation, he'd know they surely wouldn't back down and Elnor certainly wouldn't. He has no one to else to blame for how it went down, but he probably thought he could at least intervene before heads started flying. I buy that level of over confidence way more than the idea that he was just good old Picard standing up against segregation in some rando bar.
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Feb 15, 2020 15:16
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He probably thought he'd have the chance to make the dramatic "my friends, we failed you" speech before the violence broke out, yeah. Also overconfident to think that even if he had, it would have prevented the fight.
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Feb 15, 2020 15:39
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Lizard Combatant posted:Oh I've got no problem with hard choice test scenarios. Troi getting her command rank was a pretty neat episode, she didn't need to think she'd actually killed Geordie for the weight of the responsibly she's accepting to sink in. Holo-LaVarr Burton plays that scene beautifully. The way he looks back at her as he walks off to save the ship knowing he isn't coming back out of that Jeffries Tube is perfect Terrible quality, but here's the scene. It's one of my favorite moments of the show. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K7QGia1aCc
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Feb 15, 2020 16:11
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As someone who is already a walking Amelia Bedelia, I would be happy living amongst people that practice absolute candor. It would be refreshing to be around people that cut out the bullshit and tell you exactly what they think and expect you to respond back the exact same way.
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Feb 15, 2020 18:02
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HD DAD posted:Hell, if you believe YouTube (or even SA), there’s been no good Star Trek since 1993. This is correct if you change the year to 1999.
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Feb 15, 2020 18:24
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Aces High posted:As someone who is already a walking Amelia Bedelia, I would be happy living amongst people that practice absolute candor. It would be refreshing to be around people that cut out the bullshit and tell you exactly what they think and expect you to respond back the exact same way. Yeah I actually felt like they could have pushed it further, it still felt a bit polite at times.
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Feb 15, 2020 18:29
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I was glad the nuns came right out and stated that their policy was "tell, don't show," but I was disappointed that philosophy leaked out into the other characters. When the ex-Senator was orating, I kept wishing they'd shown and explored this distrust at Picard having scattered the Romulans across the galaxy, rather than just have the guy dump a page of exposition. And why wasn't he mad at his own drat government for dropping the ball? Ugh, just Nero-is-mad-at-Spock all over again. I also wish all the Borg cube scenes had been condensed into a single episode, so I could've skipped it. Get out of here, creepy Romulan sister!
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Feb 15, 2020 18:37
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ashpanash posted:Like I said, I came to the same conclusions you did initially, then changed my opinion on rewatch. I ain't saying I'm right about it, just that that's how it came across. I mean, I haven't seen the episode yet, but I would presume I would too if its the first one they aren't stuck in an office, a grey borg cube with no real borg, or that chateu.
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Feb 15, 2020 18:52
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I'm still watching. Not fully onboard but it's certainly better as Trek tonally than Disco and Picard as the lost soul an conscience of Starfleet trying to put it back on the righteous path while Evil admirals plot is within the bounds of what is My Star Treks. But god drat even though anyone who's good at watching shows knew the Romulan Samurai Kid was gonna show up to save him from the saber duel he was forced into "Please, my friend, choose to live" is a great fukkin' line to come in on.
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Feb 15, 2020 19:09
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