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ThomasPaine posted:Humanities are as important as STEM if not moreso in many cases, and the privileging of maths/sciences amongst the elites of say, China, creates its own problems just as much as the British toff's love of classics. Not that we should leave the ethics of things to engineers, but we should probably leave the engineering of things to engineers, and have more curiosity about the ethics and philosophy of science among those in power. Element 93 is Neptunium, because it's between Uranium and Plutonium.
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Feb 19, 2020 15:31
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Coohoolin posted:Tbh as someone who virulently despises israel and their existential danger to diaspora judaism, I do roll my eyes at the repeated "witchhunt screening and panel discussion" type events that the local labour party and trade union people keep putting on. They only ever attract cranks and tankie larpers. I've seen well attended events hosted by non-labour groups that addressed more pressing economic concerns. At a recent meeting someone was trying to put together a list of topics for upcoming party meetings to invite speakers and someone said about getting a speaker on anti-semitism - the person collating the list said to me she was groaning inside 'not again'. We have had 3 or 4 speakers / debates on the subject in the last couple of years and they never get anywhere as noone is allowed to mention for example the Al jazeera or Panorama documentaries and other related items so it descends into 'we have to be whiter than white on this issue' 'just apologize and it'll all go away' which some (typically the Guardian readers) seem to genuinely believe. It is annoying to read tweets etc saying why don't Labour talk about problems people actually care about when it is the media who won't let go and never ask those questions. I have recently concluded that the majority of the British public do not give a fig about foreign policy other than calls to the 'cancel the foreign aid budget' because they don't understand that the foreign aid budget is 90% the 'advertising and marketing' budget for the British government and very little to do with helping anyone, or if 'are boyz' are in a rumble somewhere and they can get a bit of jingoistic flag waving in, or immigration.
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Feb 19, 2020 15:34
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:'we have to be whiter than white on this issue'  Continuez...
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Feb 19, 2020 15:37
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https://twitter.com/DaveWardGS/status/1230134658186305537 Bullshit; bullshit; bullshit.
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Feb 19, 2020 15:43
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Comrade Fakename posted:https://twitter.com/DaveWardGS/status/1230134658186305537 Is that a Labour-wide thing or just Starmer doing a Starmer?
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Feb 19, 2020 15:46
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stev posted:Is that a Labour-wide thing or just Starmer doing a Starmer? It's just Starmer.
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Feb 19, 2020 15:51
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Guavanaut posted:Humanities are important, but when it's taken to the extent that the majority of the elite are scientifically illiterate and the heir to the throne is a homeopathy fan who believes in plant magic, poo poo's bad. Just my opinion but not really sure the ruling class are much more literate in the humanities despite them all being PPEs or Classics grads.
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Feb 19, 2020 15:52
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I wonder if it's like the stages of Marxism, where you have to push through the Capitalist stage (rule by techbros and stemlords) to get from the Feudal stage (rule by aristocrats studying ancient pederasts) to the Socialist stage (rule by a working society).
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Feb 19, 2020 16:03
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i thought the royal mail was private now?
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Feb 19, 2020 16:14
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forkboy84 posted:Just my opinion but not really sure the ruling class are much more literate in the humanities despite them all being PPEs or Classics grads. The ruling classes are very well versed in a particular kind of imperial humanities that's been hilariously outdated amongst actual scholars for at least half a century, but which still has the occasional adherent at Oxbridge etc because of course. E: and PPE is nothing if not a holdover from the days when Oxbridge was an extension of the public school system designed to produce ideologically safe imperial administrators. You get precious few PPE grads in academia. ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Feb 19, 2020 |
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Feb 19, 2020 16:16
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These new immigration laws are predictably vile. It really sickens me that they straight up put a money amount on who is let in. I think of my EU national friends, none of whom have ever made £25k, and it makes me want to cry because they all contribute far more than any of these Tory cunts. gently caress.
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Feb 19, 2020 16:33
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ThomasPaine posted:The ruling classes are very well versed in a particular kind of imperial humanities that's been hilariously outdated amongst actual scholars for at least half a century, but which still has the occasional adherent at Oxbridge etc because of course. You get precious few PPE grads from the -bridge part of Oxbridge either, because only Oxford do it.
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Feb 19, 2020 16:33
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Coohoolin posted:I'm not sure if making a big deal out of anything that isn't the most tangible and basic life quality stuff is going to help labour. It's the catch 22 situation where a lot of the country (geographically, demographically) can look at the Tories and see how they're not caring about their problems. But the moment the left move to address those problems, the same people look at that and say "why are you bothering with that fringe issue" because they don't recognise the problem THEY care about is someone else's fringe issue. I think the only way you deal with that is to try and encourage solidarity outside of the electoral system, encourage people to care about the issues that don't effect them so directly, see an attack on one as an attack on all. Ironically enough, that would do wonders for spreading the consciousness that leads to us getting elected, it's just how you go about doing that in a system that is so stacked against such a lot of people that they can't afford to care about the problems that do directly effect them let alone the ones that don't. That probably involves shaming a bunch of people who are currently content to be idle Guardian reading commentariat to show up more than once every 4 years and actually use some of their freedom from consequences of austerity to benefit someone else.
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Feb 19, 2020 16:36
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https://twitter.com/Workers4Mike/status/1229884101437427712 This apparently is meant to turn people off Bernie, lol
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Feb 19, 2020 16:37
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feedmegin posted:You get precious few PPE grads from the -bridge part of Oxbridge either, because only Oxford do it. I'm not saying you definitely went to Cambridge, but in my experience it is often Cambridge grads who are very keen on making this point.
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Feb 19, 2020 16:37
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WhatEvil posted:Anyway, I know the thread loves Frances Weetman there are more posters ITT than just ThomasPaine
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Feb 19, 2020 16:43
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forkboy84 posted:I'm not saying you definitely went to Cambridge, but in my experience it is often Cambridge grads who are very keen on making this point. In my very limited experience Cambridge is in fact the less toff and more correct place. I've not gone to either but have worked with a lot of grads and academics from both.
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Feb 19, 2020 16:47
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feedmegin posted:You get precious few PPE grads from the -bridge part of Oxbridge either, because only Oxford do it. Ok! They're both still poo poo! (and have cultural roots in this attitude towards higher education)
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Feb 19, 2020 16:48
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:As a STEM PhD, I'd like to know why such an emphasis is being put on that when unless you go into academia or high finance, there are very few jobs, research funding is being cut to the bone and with Brexit we're going to be losing a lot of European project cash too. In practice 'STEM' usually means programmers. Because not everybody can do it and thus businesses find us annoyingly highly paid thanks to supply and demand.
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Feb 19, 2020 17:16
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forkboy84 posted:I'm not saying you definitely went to Cambridge, but in my experience it is often Cambridge grads who are very keen on making this point. Actually I went to Oxford. I read History, though.
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Feb 19, 2020 17:16
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99% of programmers do not have PhDs as it has close to zero value in the industry beyond some extremely specialized but still mostly research based roles. It just seems like they've not really consulted at all on what the stem industries actually need and have just hamfisted out some idiotic criteria so they can say to the dumb public "Look! We only allow doctors in!". It's never about reality with this party.
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Feb 19, 2020 17:21
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Yeah, my doctorate is probably of less commercial benefit than four years experience and not being miserable would have been.
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Feb 19, 2020 17:27
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I think the most important point is whether they retain the resident labour market test, which is by far the worst bit for eroding the bargaining position of foreign workers. Basically companies need to conduct a national job search and can only hire you if they don't find any suitable candidate for some specified period of time; the main way to beat that is by offering a lot less than any locals would be willing to do the job for. Given they do appear to retain the registered sponsorship program and make it mandatory (it's one of the "required" points) I'm not holding out hope. Otherwise it's a very minor loosening of the current guidelines (IIRC the limit is over 30k now) but nothing to get excited about either way. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Feb 19, 2020 |
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Feb 19, 2020 17:58
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qhat posted:99% of programmers do not have PhDs as it has close to zero value in the industry beyond some extremely specialized but still mostly research based roles. It just seems like they've not really consulted at all on what the stem industries actually need and have just hamfisted out some idiotic criteria so they can say to the dumb public "Look! We only allow doctors in!". It's never about reality with this party. I'm more worried about them keeping useful people like nurses out than programmers tbqh Anyway, gently caress 'em, open borders.
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Feb 19, 2020 18:00
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Camrath posted:Various dramatic events. Holy poo poo I hope you're OK. qhat posted:99% of programmers do not have PhDs as it has close to zero value in the industry beyond some extremely specialized but still mostly research based roles. It just seems like they've not really consulted at all on what the stem industries actually need and have just hamfisted out some idiotic criteria so they can say to the dumb public "Look! We only allow doctors in!". It's never about reality with this party. Consult? With industries? Why would Dom Cummies need to do that he's hired only the best free thinkers (but ew not that free) and binned the ones he doesn't like, who do things like express rational opinions about economcs or queer issues. thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Feb 19, 2020 |
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Feb 19, 2020 18:05
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I'm guessing that the PhD thing is because what they really want isn't programmers programming, it's comp sci lecturers lecturing to foreign students paying exorbitant fees.
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Feb 19, 2020 18:08
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goddamnedtwisto posted:https://twitter.com/Workers4Mike/status/1229884101437427712 Love 2 depict my political enemies in heroic poses with stirring imagery.
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Feb 19, 2020 18:08
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It's an unqualified person's idea of a qualified person. The PPE set have no idea of what is relevant to the actual work.
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Feb 19, 2020 18:09
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I mean it is better than the status quo; the practical effect is that a) the required wage drops from 32k to 26k, b) non-stem PhDs can go down to 24k, c) STEM PhDs can go down to min 17k. The shortage occupation list has pretty much zero effect since the current conditions are just about the same. Oh I guess there's a stronger language requirement and your employer needs to get on the registered sponsor list (and pay a lot of money for that), that too. e: It's an inconsequential rejiggering which pretends to be a point system but is just a restatement of what we currently have, except I guess PhDs have a slightly easier time now. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Feb 19, 2020 |
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Feb 19, 2020 18:11
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Guavanaut posted:I'm guessing that the PhD thing is because what they really want isn't programmers programming, it's comp sci lecturers lecturing to foreign students paying exorbitant fees. As someone with a STEM PhD most of us only know how to do the basics in R or maybe Matlab for data analysis and whatnot. My university has been teaching us Python and it's an utter ballache. I see it as a hamfisted attempt to address a potential brain drain, and has the stench of Cummings all over it. Interestingly we had someone from the EU come into our institution to talk about post Brexit funding, and they seem to be worried about the same thing from their end, so who knows what the hell will happen! Didn't most of these Tory pricks study classics anyway? Anyway, this: forkboy84 posted:I'm more worried about them keeping useful people like nurses out than programmers tbqh
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Feb 19, 2020 18:24
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Thoughts after a look-through: - there's a great deal of chatter about the doctorates/stemminess, but it strikes me as something that is relatively easily tweaked. The main thing the doctorate seems to buy here is flexibility - the doctorate entitles the applicant to seek a completely unrelated job offer, whereas the shortage route mandates a particular job (note that either way one still needs that job offer). This does seem to be a tweak introduced from the top since it was not present in the earlier white paper in late 2018. - the main point is that the numerical quota is suspended and the statement commits to removing it. You may recall this was the main Tory attack line on the Points-Based System that existed 2008-2010. The party line was only eventually reversed by Javid at Home - the Tier 2 salary requirement has decreased (from £30k to £25.6). The skills threshold for the T2 visa has also fallen from RQF6 (bachelor's degree) to RQF3 (A-level equivalent). This represents an enormous liberalization for non-EEA migrants. Only about a tenth of the cohort in India enters higher education, but about a quarter finish post-secondary education. That is a lot of people! - the policy statement does make clear that the goal is to impose requirements present for non-EEA migrants on EU migrants in para 38 quote:In its latest report, the MAC modelled the impact of salary and skills thresholds on the EEA migrant population. It estimated that, under their recommendations, around 70% of resident EEA citizens arriving in the UK since 2004 would be found ineligible for either a skilled-work, family or Tier 4 visa given their current (2016-18) characteristics. The MAC suggest that these changes could bring both costs and benefits to the UK, and highlight ‘estimated impacts at the macro level are small’. All in all it seems like a massive liberalization for non-EEA migrants and a huge clampdown for EEA migrants relative to the status quo ronya fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Feb 19, 2020 |
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Feb 19, 2020 18:29
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Oh I missed the bit about removing the degree requirement, I guess that's pretty good. It's still definitely not a permissive system mind you. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Feb 19, 2020 |
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Feb 19, 2020 18:36
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One obvious impact is a drastic shift back toward South/East/Southeast Asia to fill programmers, nurses, social work, etc roles on the shortage list, since these countries have explosive numbers of English-speaking people with at least a post-secondary qual
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Feb 19, 2020 18:39
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ronya posted:One obvious impact is a drastic shift back toward South/East/Southeast Asia to fill programmers, nurses, social work, etc roles on the shortage list, since these countries have explosive numbers of English-speaking people with at least a post-secondary qual the reaction to this from the people who voted for brexit to get rid of the muslims will be fun
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Feb 19, 2020 18:42
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what that plan means is anyone "foreign" (non-white, accent, name, whatever your othering of choice is) will be constantly challenged on whether they meet "the rules for being here". It's designed to exclude basically everyone, and the "essential: speaks English at the required level" bit is basically a free pass to harass people regardless of their actual language ability I mean there's always been people who'll do that, but it wasn't backed by a state-issued checklist. It's not just legitimising those attitudes, it's giving them the cover of civic duty in rooting out the people exploiting the system - and poo poo, if there's one thing the UK has more of than bigots, it's narcs who just love to see people suffer consequences for breaking the rules. The whole thing's gonna create a really poisonous atmosphere, especially in the era of TAKING BACK CONTROL OF ARE BORDERS also wouldn't be surprised if the government doesn't actually crack down on employers hiring immigrant workers under the table for cheap, so the economy can continue to benefit from their exploitation, and they can send out the vans to round people up on a regular basis to remind everyone that immigrants are still the cause of all problems. Get a few seasons of Channel 5 policewank sorted at the same time
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Feb 19, 2020 18:49
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You do already have to speak English for the Tier 2 EEA migrants don't, but they tend to be able to pass for white
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Feb 19, 2020 18:53
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Plank Sanction posted:As someone with a STEM PhD most of us only know how to do the basics in R or maybe Matlab for data analysis and whatnot. My university has been teaching us Python and it's an utter ballache. Plank Sanction posted:the stench of Cummings all over it marktheando posted:the reaction to this from the people who voted for brexit to get rid of the muslims will be fun baka kaba posted:the "essential: speaks English at the required level" bit is basically a free pass to harass people regardless of their actual language ability
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Feb 19, 2020 18:55
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ronya posted:You do already have to speak English for the Tier 2 I'm talking more about the social effect of having this checklist of criteria to judge every perceived non-brit against, not the real details behind it. I mean the facts never stopped people from being terrible about immigration before
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Feb 19, 2020 18:57
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Communist Thoughts posted:i thought the royal mail was private now? has been for a decade. one of the headline Labour manifesto 2019 commitments was to nationalise it so basically this tweet’s complaint amounts to the party chose to contract to one private delivery company over another that he happens to work for. cue the world’s smallest violin.
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Feb 19, 2020 19:02
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I've said this before, but the voting public really does have fundamentally inconsistent expectations of the immigration system. One can construct a majority fully in favour of generous family reunification rights and generous access for "deserving" aslyum seekers/migrants (loosely defined), much more generous than the actually-existing status quo. One can also construct another majority in favour of much lower levels of immigration, much lower than are reckoned actually achievable even with unrealistically harsh or utterly impractical conditions. The median voter appears to juggle both attitudes at the same time... These are widespread attitudes and notably are not special to the British or English outlook; they are also prevalent in other countries with different demographic makeups, social outlooks, political drifts, etc. Attitudes to immigration are generally negative and have very little actual association to national levels of economic privation or lack thereof. There has never been and there never will be ready support for higher immigration levels outside of the social elite. The contradictory demands of the public have allowed governments and politicians everywhere to rig the debate to pursue essentially pragmatic outcomes... the most toxic part of the policy discourse introduced by the Conservatives was the quota, which instead undermined the ambiguity and allowed the red tops to call for ever lower and lower quotas (even as those same red tops hastened to defend 'deserving' Windrushers, notably in terms of their contributions to postwar Britain). People are essentially innumerate and any number larger than zero is only too easy to spin as outrageous. We should be glad, I think, that the quota seems to be exiting the stage without much complaint from the usual suspects. ronya fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Feb 19, 2020 |
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Feb 19, 2020 19:10
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