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Onmi posted:You ever notice in the Zeon Wank stories like this, that the zeon people are always so humble and unified and devoted to the cause... when Tomino's 0079 showed them to be a bunch of in-fighting dickbags all focused on screwing one another more than they were on winning the war or not being war criminals. I mean, that's really only a handful of the more important officers. Namely Char, M'Quve, Kycilia, Gihren and Conscon ("Char! He's come to laugh at me!! guy). A lot of the other officers and named soldiers weren't notably patriotic but also weren't noticeably petty and seemed to just be there to fight the war in front of them. People like Dozle, Garma, Ramba, Dren, the Black Tri-Stars etc. The nameless soldiers tended to be humanized and to be decent folks just caught in the machinery of war, and 0079 implies that they're either conscripted or just tired of fighting and looking to go home. Guys like the infantry in "Time, Be Still". Caros posted:I still want Gundam: Pentagon Wars. I don't know if that'd be better taken from the Federation's perspective or Zeons, because while Zeon did design some goofy rear end poo poo (as did several other antagonistic factions), the Federation made a lot of over blown stuff that seemed more like it was there solely to justify military budget and not for any need.
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Mar 11, 2020 19:39
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Sharkopath posted:Zeon is cool. Zaku FTW. Imma drop a colony on you, see how you like it
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Mar 11, 2020 20:01
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Shinjobi posted:Imma drop a colony on you, see how you like it It's 2020. It would be an improvement.
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Mar 11, 2020 20:08
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Onmi posted:
Supporting the Delaz fleet is the least forgivable Zeon to be involved with. Like, One Year War? Conscription was in play, and Gihren had a really good propaganda machine going. You look at Cyclops team, Ral, or Cuaran from Time be Still (and Iron Mustang, his own manga), they're decent guys playing a bad hand as best they see how. Republic of Zeon soldiers? They're working for a sane, normal government... with a few nutjobs running off-the-books work with terrorists. Even Char and Haman's Zeons were responding to the Titans and increased oppression of Spacenoids, with Char's Zeon even including speeches about how much the other Zeons sucked. Like, yes, most of those groups were crazy war criminals, but you can see why people threw in with them. The Delaz fleet only exists to perform war crimes against civilians.
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Mar 11, 2020 22:30
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Onmi posted:It's telling that the guy writing 0083 Rebellion (who was involved in both 0083 and Igloo) has the Igloo characters show up to give Gato the Niue Ziel and show that they're still fighting for Glorious Zeon. You know, just in case someone tries to tell you that those two shows aren't massive Zeon Wank. And they're still trying the wunderwaffen thing! chiasaur11 posted:The Delaz fleet only exists to perform war crimes against civilians. Jamitov and Bask consider this a feature, not a bug.
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Mar 11, 2020 23:23
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this is why anavel gato is an iconic himbo
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Mar 11, 2020 23:23
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To be entirely """""""""""""""""""""""fair""""""""""""""""""""" to the Delaz Fleet rank and file, the actual goal of Operation Stardust wasn't a widely known thing. The commander Gato hangs out with in Africa briefly before his HLV launch specifically says he doesn't know what Operation Stardust is but he assumes it's for the benefit of Zeon. So, very technically, they weren't all aware that the explicit operational goal of their fleet the entire time was "cause insane civilian casualties". They all went along with it just fine when that was revealed, of course!
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Mar 11, 2020 23:30
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chiasaur11 posted:Even Char and Haman's Zeons were responding to the Titans and increased oppression of Spacenoids Speaking specifically to Haman's Neo Zeon, but: were they? The way Haman talks in Zeta, they had always intended on launching an attack on the Earthsphere and were just waiting for good timing. The Titans were not something they were railing against the oppression of, but simply a good cover because their actions weakened the Earthsphere and meant that it was easier to attack. They also (a) continue to act after the Titans have essentially been defeated, disbanded and lost any relevance during ZZ and (b) actually fold some of the remaining Titans in to their ranks during ZZ going by the dialogue, which implies they didn't have real problem with their ideology or methodology.
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Mar 11, 2020 23:36
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tsob posted:Speaking specifically to Haman's Neo Zeon, but: were they? The way Haman talks in Zeta, they had always intended on launching an attack on the Earthsphere and were just waiting for good timing. The Titans were not something they were railing against the oppression of, but simply a good cover because their actions weakened the Earthsphere and meant that it was easier to attack. They also (a) continue to act after the Titans have essentially been defeated, disbanded and lost any relevance during ZZ and (b) actually fold some of the remaining Titans in to their ranks during ZZ going by the dialogue, which implies they didn't have real problem with their ideology or methodology. Yeah Haman was always in it for world domination. The oppression of spacenoids and the crimes of the Titans were just an excuse, just like the Zabis used "spacenoid freedom" as a rallying cry. If the goal was "bust up the Titans and secure the rights of spacenoids", well, the Titans were thoroughly busted up at the end of Zeta and I'm not entirely sure how dropping a colony on a population center full of poor people really advances the cause of spacenoid rights.
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Mar 11, 2020 23:42
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Kanos posted:Yeah Haman was always in it for world domination. The oppression of spacenoids and the crimes of the Titans were just an excuse, just like the Zabis used "spacenoid freedom" as a rallying cry. If the goal was "bust up the Titans and secure the rights of spacenoids", well, the Titans were thoroughly busted up at the end of Zeta and I'm not entirely sure how dropping a colony on a population center full of poor people really advances the cause of spacenoid rights. Oh, yeah. To be clear, I was thinking of that as an excuse for the rank and file, and it only put them above the Delaz fleet, not anywhere good in general.
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Mar 11, 2020 23:53
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Hard to buy the rank and file thought that they were just trying to defend people from a group that no longer existed though.
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Mar 12, 2020 00:09
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Warmachine posted:And they're still trying the wunderwaffen thing! From Zeon’s perspective, it must be the Gundam that beat them.
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Mar 12, 2020 00:10
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Poor Zeon just never got their hands on whatever super metal the Gundam is made of. Better make the machine giant and have 5 times the reactor output to make up for it.
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Mar 12, 2020 00:26
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gms won the 1 year war, but no one finds that exciting so in-universe and out it is quietly ignored.
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Mar 12, 2020 01:02
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Kanos posted:To be entirely """""""""""""""""""""""fair""""""""""""""""""""" to the Delaz Fleet rank and file, the actual goal of Operation Stardust wasn't a widely known thing. The commander Gato hangs out with in Africa briefly before his HLV launch specifically says he doesn't know what Operation Stardust is but he assumes it's for the benefit of Zeon. Except the true hero Cima Garahau.
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Mar 12, 2020 01:51
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ElBrak posted:Poor Zeon just never got their hands on whatever super metal the Gundam is made of. Better make the machine giant and have 5 times the reactor output to make up for it. To be ~*faaaaaaaaaaaaair*~ they thought this was the head. https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/B_Gundam Zeon got lucky with the Zaku.
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Mar 12, 2020 02:45
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Warmachine posted:To be ~*faaaaaaaaaaaaair*~ they thought this was the head. Man, there is a lot of Faaaaaart with "Well if Gato had fought Amuro things would have been different!" And it's like yeah... Gato'd be dead.
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Mar 12, 2020 02:59
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:gms won the 1 year war, but no one finds that exciting so in-universe and out it is quietly ignored. GMs and Balls. But yes. Endless waves of "good enough" doesn't make for compelling visuals. Saw another episode of IGLOO since I've got a completionist streak, and the show managed to make a pretty compelling argument for the Zeon engineering highlighted in the episode. Unfortunately for them, that engineering was the Zaku II. The Hildolfr looked like a massive waste of money. Six Federation pilots with minimal Mobile Suit training managed to take it out in hijacked Zakus with no knowledge of the thing's capabilities. (And then the last one of them gets killed due to plot bullshit sparing the Hildolfr pilot just long enough to get a killing shot despite the lead Federation pilot firing right into the cockpit with his machine gun.) Considering the mechanisms would make the Hildolfr easily cost six times the price of the Zaku II, that's pretty bad. Add in the total lack of space capability, and it's no wonder Zeon dustbinned it. Something that can be taken out by a handful of Zaks going in fresh is going to get eaten alive once GMs hit mass production.
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Mar 12, 2020 03:12
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I tried watching the first G-Reco movie and I felt my eyes glazing over about 20 minutes in. It's a miracle I made it through the original run of the series. It's a drat shame considering how good the art style and MS designs are.
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Mar 12, 2020 03:16
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Onmi posted:Man, there is a lot of Faaaaaart with "Well if Gato had fought Amuro things would have been different!" And it's like yeah... Gato'd be dead. Gato actually does encounter Amuro during the Encouters In Space game for the PS2, and much like that guy from the 0081 game on PS3, the only reason Amuro doesn't vaporize him is because Char shows up
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Mar 12, 2020 03:16
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Bloody Pom posted:I tried watching the first G-Reco movie and I felt my eyes glazing over about 20 minutes in. It's a miracle I made it through the original run of the series. G-Reco is good and fun
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Mar 12, 2020 04:15
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Onmi posted:Man, there is a lot of Faaaaaart with "Well if Gato had fought Amuro things would have been different!" And it's like yeah... Gato'd be dead. A better tomorrow
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Mar 12, 2020 04:31
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chiasaur11 posted:GMs and Balls. But yes. Endless waves of "good enough" doesn't make for compelling visuals. I love IGLOO but it's irredeemably stupid. The Zudah is one of my favorite MS, but you've been pretty much spot on about the general flow of the episodes. "Zeon good! Look at this wonderful machine, if only they funded it, it would have won the war!" "HAHA I am the man who will show you it's worth funding!" "What an honorable, noble soul!" "And now I will explode and die." And the machines themselves aren't even good. I kind of wish more games that included the Zudah would actually let it explode if you pushed it too hard.
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Mar 12, 2020 04:54
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Onmi posted:Man, there is a lot of Faaaaaart with "Well if Gato had fought Amuro things would have been different!" And it's like yeah... Gato'd be dead. Gato doesn't have Newtype abilities, right? Because ace pilot or not, OYW Amuro would've still turned him to paste.
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Mar 12, 2020 04:58
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Kanos posted:Yeah Haman was always in it for world domination. The oppression of spacenoids and the crimes of the Titans were just an excuse, just like the Zabis used "spacenoid freedom" as a rallying cry. If the goal was "bust up the Titans and secure the rights of spacenoids", well, the Titans were thoroughly busted up at the end of Zeta and I'm not entirely sure how dropping a colony on a population center full of poor people really advances the cause of spacenoid rights. Haman is actually pretty honest and up-front about what she wants. The Federation have shown themselves to be unbelievably vicious, venal, and incompetent, and the Earth Sphere's collapsed into chaos, so someone needs to crack some heads together and take charge if the human race is to survive. She makes no pretence that either this process or the end result will be at all pleasant, but she genuinely sees it as the best chance the Earth Sphere has.
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Mar 12, 2020 05:25
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HitTheTargets posted:From Zeon’s perspective, it must be the Gundam that beat them. See that's the thing, I'd argue it WAS the Gundam that beat them, but Zeon totally misunderstood HOW the Gundam was beating them. It wasn't necessarily that the RX 78-2 was the best machine on the battlefield, it was that they dumped a stupid amount of money, mechs, and lives into trying to blow up one single drat Mobile Suit. If the Gundam did beat Zeon it's Zeon's own drat fault.
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Mar 12, 2020 06:05
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amigolupus posted:Gato doesn't have Newtype abilities, right? Because ace pilot or not, OYW Amuro would've still turned him to paste. Complete bog standard old type. Amuro would have blendered him. Doesn't stop fanboys and writes drinking deep of the Zeon kool-aid to go "but X could have done it!" I've legit heard people argue that Norris could have taken him.
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Mar 12, 2020 06:14
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I think it's fair to say that if the Gundam was destroyed or captured at any point the Federation probably would have lost the war because Amuro was basically the only reason potential doomsday weapons like the Elmeth didn't actually get to function at their full capacity, and Amuro's actions turned the tide in some serious battles. It couldn't have won the war alone but the war would have been lost without it. The key there though is that the Gundam was less important than Amuro. Its main contribution was keeping Amuro's dumb rear end alive long enough for him to develop. It's basically just coincidence and plot fiat that people who are similarly capable of significant changes to the world keep ending up in Gundams, not that Gundams end up changing the world, which is the mistake a lot of people make.
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Mar 12, 2020 06:24
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Onmi posted:Complete bog standard old type. Amuro would have blendered him. Doesn't stop fanboys and writes drinking deep of the Zeon kool-aid to go "but X could have done it!" I've legit heard people argue that Norris could have taken him. Depends when in the OYW they meet him, I guess. Norris could probably make a similarly dangerous alternative to Ramba Ral, for instance.
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Mar 12, 2020 06:25
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Darth Walrus posted:Depends when in the OYW they meet him, I guess. Norris could probably make a similarly dangerous alternative to Ramba Ral, for instance. Honestly I don't think so. The major problem with the majority of OYW Zeon aces is that they are oldtypes and their experience and skills were rapidly losing ground to Amuro's insane growth. Norris did good against bog-standard pilots but Amuro is basically to guys like Norris what Norris was to the 08th MS Team and those Guntanks. He pretty effortlessly hosed up the Black Tri-Stars who were in top of the line suits and considered among the best Zeon had to offer. After they were down it was basically only Char and Newtypes that posed any real threat to Amuro. I guess you can argue M'qube but he was intentionally laying traps rather than straight fighting.
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Mar 12, 2020 06:32
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ImpAtom posted:I think it's fair to say that if the Gundam was destroyed or captured at any point the Federation probably would have lost the war because Amuro was basically the only reason potential doomsday weapons like the Elmeth didn't actually get to function at their full capacity, and Amuro's actions turned the tide in some serious battles. It couldn't have won the war alone but the war would have been lost without it. Origin has the Jaburo base attack happen before Odessa and Amuro has to go out in a GM and it's a fairly even fight between he and Char's z'gock it also shows how devastating the massed GMs are in how they push out and raze the Zeon forces.
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Mar 12, 2020 06:37
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ImpAtom posted:I think it's fair to say that if the Gundam was destroyed or captured at any point the Federation probably would have lost the war because Amuro was basically the only reason potential doomsday weapons like the Elmeth didn't actually get to function at their full capacity, and Amuro's actions turned the tide in some serious battles. It couldn't have won the war alone but the war would have been lost without it. It didn't quite help Zeon that every new Mobile Armor/doomsday weapon they produced they either tested against the Gundam or the Gundam happened to wander into it's testing grounds. Against any other segment of the Federation they probably could have caused some serious damage. Big Zam in particular seemed to almost single-handedly halt the assault on Solomon, but nope, Amuro was there with his own secret weapon (the Sleggar Missile  ).Caros posted:I still want Gundam: Pentagon Wars. On the subject of Mobile Armors though, the Apsalas is just peak Pentagon Wars. The jump between II and III is just amazingly dumb, you just kinda have to love it. What's funny is the Apsalas II wasn't even bad, it was only defeated because the 08th knew it was coming and
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Mar 12, 2020 06:50
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Yeah the thing about the Aspalus is that when you consider that basically the only components it used which were completely new was it's MPC and everything else about it was taken off the shelf from existing units, it's probably the most cost effective wonder weapon that Zeon developed during the OYW Which is probably one of the reasons why the guy who did 0083 Rebellion had a new mobile armor derived from it show up
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Mar 12, 2020 07:04
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The Hildolfr is the closest thing in Igloo to being viable and even then, as correctly pointed out, it's gotta hideously expensive and at best you've made a fire support Gouf, a specialist high-spec suit doled out to aces and other elites who can make the most of it. Or you can just get a bunch of Zaku cannons and get the same-ish overall firepower without having to deal with all its bullshit. Sure, it can one-shot a Zaku but that's not an amazing feat for its cost.
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Mar 12, 2020 07:07
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Argas posted:The Hildolfr is the closest thing in Igloo to being viable and even then, as correctly pointed out, it's gotta hideously expensive and at best you've made a fire support Gouf, a specialist high-spec suit doled out to aces and other elites who can make the most of it. Honestly I figure it probably wasn't even all that expensive, it probably borrowed most of it's parts from the Zaku and the Magella Attack Tank, and it's cannon was apparently a preexisting model
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Mar 12, 2020 07:14
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I think without Amuro and the White Base crew the Federation would have eventually won the war, it would have just taken longer and cost more lives.
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Mar 12, 2020 07:25
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MonsieurChoc posted:I think without Amuro and the White Base crew the Federation would have eventually won the war, it would have just taken longer and cost more lives. I figure it probably would have ended in something of a draw, like the Federation manages to push Zeon off Earth but gets completely bogged down at Solomon once someone sorties the Big Zam(not to mention several of the other Mobile Armors that Amuro blew up in canon), things settle into a Cold War for a couple years and then fighting erupts again at some point
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Mar 12, 2020 07:40
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Onmi posted:Complete bog standard old type. Amuro would have blendered him. Doesn't stop fanboys and writes drinking deep of the Zeon kool-aid to go "but X could have done it!" I've legit heard people argue that Norris could have taken him. From the showings in Return of Johnny Ridden, I'd say that even at the end of the war, Johnny could have made Amuro work for his win in a Gelgoog, and if they'd met when Amuro first landed on Earth in equivalent suits, Amuro'd get bodied. But Johnny Ridden is the guy specifically picked out to lead Kycilia's anti-Newtype team (Formed because she wasn't dumb enough to trust Char), an absolute monster of a pilot. He's one of the few oldtypes confirmed to kick the crap out of artificial newtypes. Char and Amuro can still dunk on him, but they're about it.
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Mar 12, 2020 07:44
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drrockso20 posted:I figure it probably would have ended in something of a draw, like the Federation manages to push Zeon off Earth but gets completely bogged down at Solomon once someone sorties the Big Zam(not to mention several of the other Mobile Armors that Amuro blew up in canon), things settle into a Cold War for a couple years and then fighting erupts again at some point Keep in mind that the big Sam was low on power even in the short time it's active. It's a gas guzzler. Destructive and all but if the destruction is limited to a 10-30 minute window... So I'd expect it to go beyond one year, but the federation would eventually grind Zeon down. chiasaur11 posted:From the showings in Return of Johnny Ridden, I'd say that even at the end of the war, Johnny could have made Amuro work for his win in a Gelgoog, and if they'd met when Amuro first landed on Earth in equivalent suits, Amuro'd get bodied. I enjoyed what I read of RoJR. I especially like it's take on Yazan.
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Mar 12, 2020 08:05
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Onmi posted:Keep in mind that the big Sam was low on power even in the short time it's active. It's a gas guzzler. Destructive and all but if the destruction is limited to a 10-30 minute window... So I'd expect it to go beyond one year, but the federation would eventually grind Zeon down. Well the way I was seeing it, the Big Zam probably goes down, but by the end of the battle the Federation has lost so many of their forces that they can't hold onto Solomon, let alone try and assault A Baoa Qu, with the Federation basically only able to hold onto the Moon and Luna II in space
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Mar 12, 2020 10:20
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