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MonsieurChoc posted:I think without Amuro and the White Base crew the Federation would have eventually won the war, it would have just taken longer and cost more lives. A lot of what Amuro did got the GM project off the ground and it would've been nowhere near as combat-effective without that. The GM's and Amuro murking every Ace Zeon had are what fundamentally turned the tide, and without that Zeon probably would've won.
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Mar 12, 2020 10:24
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Neddy Seagoon posted:A lot of what Amuro did got the GM project off the ground and it would've been nowhere near as combat-effective without that. The GM's and Amuro murking every Ace Zeon had are what fundamentally turned the tide, and without that Zeon probably would've won. Remember that originally, Odessa was basically won by tanks and planes, with later additions to the lore adding MS to the battle. So from that, we can at least confirm that the ground war would be won by the Federation. Then it'd be superweapons like the solar system that settle the battle in space.
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Mar 12, 2020 10:53
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Darth Walrus posted:Haman is actually pretty honest and up-front about what she wants. The Federation have shown themselves to be unbelievably vicious, venal, and incompetent, and the Earth Sphere's collapsed into chaos, so someone needs to crack some heads together and take charge if the human race is to survive. She makes no pretence that either this process or the end result will be at all pleasant, but she genuinely sees it as the best chance the Earth Sphere has. She's also very upfront about the fact she has no intention of changing for anyone and that she wants an outcome on her terms and not anyone elses. The entire finale is basically Judau trying to get her to stand down because her forces have been destroyed as well as to let go of the hatred that informs her entire character and become a better person and her going "No, I'll never let go of it" and then dying rather than actually live in someone else's world. She is just as vicious as the people she's mad at, but while she may not be venal she's at least as corrupt in her own way and uses a child to push her own agenda. She's also arguably competent, given that while she knew Glemy was going to betray her at some point, she never took any notable precautions to limit his power and his actual rebellion tore her forces apart and destroyed them more than the AEUG ever did really. Omnicrom posted:See that's the thing, I'd argue it WAS the Gundam that beat them, but Zeon totally misunderstood HOW the Gundam was beating them. It wasn't necessarily that the RX 78-2 was the best machine on the battlefield, it was that they dumped a stupid amount of money, mechs, and lives into trying to blow up one single drat Mobile Suit. If the Gundam did beat Zeon it's Zeon's own drat fault. I'm not really sure how much I buy that interpretation, honestly. Char focused on the the Gundam for the first few episodes, but Dozle was kind of annoyed at the resources he was spending to do so. Afterwards, he got Garma to buy in to it once he landed on Earth but Garma wasn't diverting forces or anything so far as we know and after Garma's death, Zeon sends exactly one strike force consisting of a single ship and a half dozen or so suits to capture or destroy the Gundam and White Base. That's basically it. Everything after that point is the Gundam pushing in to Zeon plans, rather than Zeon focusing on them. At least, outside of Char himself. The Gundam is the one that interrupts M'Quve, who is more concerned with Odessa than anything to do with the White Base and the Tri-Stars are called to Earth to fight Odessa, not the Gundam or the White Base. Char comes back in to the story then and chases the Gundam to Jaburo and then eventually to Side 6, but no-one else in Zeon seems to care and the next time anyone besides Char fights them it's when they arrive at Solomon, which is as part of a fleet to fight a major battle during which neither the Gundam or White Base are focused on, and Dozle is concerned with defeating the fleet and not any particular element of it. A Baoa Qu is only a few episodes later, and is essentially the same thing. Char was obsessed with beating the Gundam for the sake of his own pride once he comes back in to the show at episode 26, and uses several unique mobile suits or armor to do so but outside Char, no-one else seems to care much at that point. Maybe Kycilia, since she's his direct commander, but even she hardly even mentions the Gundam except to comment that not even one or two of the suits Char used could beat the Gundam. She doesn't even seem concerned or upset, so much as mildly surprised. Really, it's just Char, Garma and Ramba that were focused on the Gundam, which is a tiny part of the overall Zeon forces even if they make up a notable portion of what the show focuses on. ImpAtom posted:I think it's fair to say that if the Gundam was destroyed or captured at any point the Federation probably would have lost the war because Amuro was basically the only reason potential doomsday weapons like the Elmeth didn't actually get to function at their full capacity, and Amuro's actions turned the tide in some serious battles. It couldn't have won the war alone but the war would have been lost without it. The Elmeth is just a single unit though, and unlike the Big Zam it literally cannot be mass produced, because there will never be enough Newtypes to make use of other models. It'd be devastating at one battle, but one battle is all it can ever affect at at time. A lot of it's threat is removed after Dr. Flanagan limits the effective range of the funnels to stop Lalah hurting herself by using the funnels at beyond visual range too. It might take dozens of Balls, GMs and battleships to overwhelm Lalah, but it'd eventually happen because the Elmeth can still run out of fuel, the funnels need to recharge etc. The Big Zam is basically the same story, because while Dozle was mowing down ships the first time it was introduced, Amuro took it out relatively quickly once he got over his trepidation about approaching it and didn't need any particular Newtype skills to do so; just the courage to get in close and the skill to avoid a melee strike. There's no reason a squad of GMs couldn't take it down. The Big Zam might be mass producable, but (a) it can't be used nearly as effectively on Earth given it's size and relative lack of mobility and (b) the Federation could eventually make an analogue of their own that'd match or overmatch it, just like the with the Gundam to Zeon's Zaku. drrockso20 posted:Yeah the thing about the Aspalus is that when you consider that basically the only components it used which were completely new was it's MPC and everything else about it was taken off the shelf from existing units, it's probably the most cost effective wonder weapon that Zeon developed during the OYW The thing about the Apsalus is that it achieves a LOT with very little. Ginias built something that wouldn't be replicated for literal decades, pushing a Minovsky Craft engine in to a mobile armor when the White Base was notable for being the first warship truly capable of flight because it had a Minovsky Craft engine if I recall. Then Ginias also gave it a cannon so strong it could hull a mountain in one shot, which is a stronger gun than any other single unit in the entirety of UC, be it mobile suit, mobile armor or even battleship. Not even anything in Turn A or G-Reco is comparable. People complain about 0083's GP Project units or Unicorn's Unicorn series units wrecking the technological and power curve of UC Gundam, but 08th MS Team is just as bad really (honestly, I'd say it's worse than 0083 in that regard). chiasaur11 posted:But Johnny Ridden is the guy specifically picked out to lead Kycilia's anti-Newtype team (Formed because she wasn't dumb enough to trust Char) She was though, at least in the animation. She thought that by pushing Char to target Gihren first that she'd be okay, and never actually worried about him betraying her while working with and using him as a central facet of her forces during the final part of the show. She was that dumb, or at least that arrogant. Onmi posted:Remember that originally, Odessa was basically won by tanks and planes, with later additions to the lore adding MS to the battle. So from that, we can at least confirm that the ground war would be won by the Federation. Then it'd be superweapons like the solar system that settle the battle in space. Remember also that the Federation was holding Zeon to a stalemate at the current battlelines for several months even though they had no mobile suits. If Amuro hadn't been around for the GM's to use his data, they'd still have been enough to turn the tide on Earth regardless and they'd probably be good enough to eventually turn the tide in space; even if it'd take longer and cost more lives and resources.
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Mar 12, 2020 11:55
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Supposedly the Aspalus's Minovsky Craft System is derived from the Adzam's(and some games also give it that weird electric wire weapon that thing had), as for why it's able to fly so much better than the Adzam, well that's probably because it uses better engines than the Adzam did(as the Adzam is supposed to be one of the most archaic mobile weapons that Zeon has, basically just being an upgraded version of the Luna Tank), since it uses the engine of a Rick Dom(several of them on the third model)
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Mar 12, 2020 12:06
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Actual footage of mass produced Big Zams... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDUmjadEQVo
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Mar 12, 2020 13:00
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ImpAtom posted:Honestly I don't think so. This reminds me of early on in Zeta where Lyla was freaking the gently caress out because despite being an experienced pilot, she's losing ground to Kamille, who she suspects to be a Newtype. It would've been hilarious to see Gato freak out as Amuro starts kicking his poo poo in.
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Mar 12, 2020 13:11
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More proof that Newtypes are bullshit.
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Mar 12, 2020 13:41
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amigolupus posted:This reminds me of early on in Zeta where Lyla was freaking the gently caress out because despite being an experienced pilot, she's losing ground to Kamille, who she suspects to be a Newtype. There interesting thing with Lyla is there's hints, though not quite confirmation, that she's developing into a Newtype. Of course one of Tomino's big things I.E. Newtypes is how poorly defined the concept is and how it's mostly a word that's been given meaning by many, not something quantifiable.
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Mar 12, 2020 14:02
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drrockso20 posted:Supposedly the Aspalus's Minovsky Craft System is derived from the Adzam's(and some games also give it that weird electric wire weapon that thing had), as for why it's able to fly so much better than the Adzam, well that's probably because it uses better engines than the Adzam did(as the Adzam is supposed to be one of the most archaic mobile weapons that Zeon has, basically just being an upgraded version of the Luna Tank), since it uses the engine of a Rick Dom(several of them on the third model) I wouldn't have even known the Adzam had a Minovsky engine until you mentioned it, because it seemed more like a thing that could hover a few feet at best and not fly in any real manner if I recall the fight.
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Mar 12, 2020 14:13
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I personally believe that the biggest contribution the RX-78-2 made was the development of the GM line. Or more specifically, the beam rifle tech. The GMs could destroy any Zeon suit with a single shot, and had slightly better armor to boot. Once the federation was producing RGM-79s en masse, it was over.
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Mar 12, 2020 14:26
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One of my big dislikes of Zeta is that the Federations MS design stopped being clean. I liked the GM as the "Build on this base" suit but since the Titans had to be the villains, they had to start getting Zeonic designs. There's something lost there when the MS progression becomes mixed and muddled and you can't really follow and clean line through.
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Mar 12, 2020 14:47
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Onmi posted:Man, there is a lot of Faaaaaart with "Well if Gato had fought Amuro things would have been different!" And it's like yeah... Gato'd be dead. I think Amuro gave one line in the game itself where he was like "if I fought him longer, he might have won!" But considering that this is Solomon Amuro and not pre-Garma Amuro, the game is probably just full of poo poo.
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Mar 12, 2020 14:55
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Onmi posted:One of my big dislikes of Zeta is that the Federations MS design stopped being clean. I liked the GM as the "Build on this base" suit but since the Titans had to be the villains, they had to start getting Zeonic designs. There's something lost there when the MS progression becomes mixed and muddled and you can't really follow and clean line through. I think that's intentional though because the Federation started poaching Zeon's designers and such. Them becoming muddled makes perfect sense both thematically and in-universe.
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Mar 12, 2020 14:55
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One of my favorite mech things in After War Gundam X is during one of the arcs where the Federation-equivalent of that universe are the villains, they send villain-of-the-week suits that are mutations of the Gundam/GM design philosophy in most cases as an equivalent to the Zeon suit of the week.
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Mar 12, 2020 15:21
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Omnicrom posted:See that's the thing, I'd argue it WAS the Gundam that beat them, but Zeon totally misunderstood HOW the Gundam was beating them. It wasn't necessarily that the RX 78-2 was the best machine on the battlefield, it was that they dumped a stupid amount of money, mechs, and lives into trying to blow up one single drat Mobile Suit. If the Gundam did beat Zeon it's Zeon's own drat fault. Zeon screwed Zeon.
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Mar 12, 2020 15:32
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zeon just plain never had the resources or manpower to conquer earth. but if they had stayed in space then eventually the federation's unchecked war production would have overwhelmed them anyway. i guess they could have started doing orbital bombardments (with objects smaller than colonies) on launch sites to keep the flow of troops into space in check, but that would be a whole other arms race the feds still might win. zeon never seemed terribly interested in suppression or containment, though. making 50 different mobile suits/armors exclusively for fighting on earth was vastly preferable to ever questioning if they should be fighting on earth at all. so obviously, the only route to zeon victory was mass producing the zakrello.
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Mar 12, 2020 16:05
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Onmi posted:Complete bog standard old type. Amuro would have blendered him. Doesn't stop fanboys and writes drinking deep of the Zeon kool-aid to go "but X could have done it!" I've legit heard people argue that Norris could have taken him. With Norris superpowers of inducing massive incompetence on everyone around him and turning the fight choreography into garbage, he would not have just killed Amuro but also MSG as a series.
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Mar 12, 2020 17:06
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amigolupus posted:This reminds me of early on in Zeta where Lyla was freaking the gently caress out because despite being an experienced pilot, she's losing ground to Kamille, who she suspects to be a Newtype. Its one of my favourite bits, just seeing someone who is actually competent and good at their job get styled on by a magic brain baby because they're bullshit. The opening fight of Unicorn where the Jegans just get dunked on because you literally can't block every angle and that's what you need to do to not get taken apart by funnels is another one I like for showing why so many people consider Newtypes such a threat. Newtypes are absolute horseshit.
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Mar 12, 2020 17:31
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:zeon just plain never had the resources or manpower to conquer earth. but if they had stayed in space then eventually the federation's unchecked war production would have overwhelmed them anyway. i guess they could have started doing orbital bombardments (with objects smaller than colonies) on launch sites to keep the flow of troops into space in check, but that would be a whole other arms race the feds still might win. zeon never seemed terribly interested in suppression or containment, though. making 50 different mobile suits/armors exclusively for fighting on earth was vastly preferable to ever questioning if they should be fighting on earth at all. This plus a combination of what drrockso20 was saying is why I think the Gundam was important for beating Zeon. I think without the Gundam and its data to make really good GMs that Zeon might (keyword: might) have been able to turn the war into such a grind that they eventually manage to have grounds for a ceasefire, but there was no real way they were going to full on "Win" the One Year War. Zeon could probably have managed to not LOSE had someone like Char or Ral taken out the Gundam before it got to Jaburo, but there's basically now way Zeon could actually "win" without going full Gundam X. Of course I wouldn't put it past Zeon to go full Gundam X. HitTheTargets posted:Zeon screwed Zeon. This too. Zeon's most reasonable path towards victory demanded that its desired victory actually matched the rhetoric of what its leaders said. If it had leaders who actually wanted to fight a real war for independence instead of being a bunch of fascy assholes who wanted to conquer Earth Zeon might not have turned into a bunch of lost causer war criminals who constantly self-destruct.
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Mar 12, 2020 19:55
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i bet the part about invading earth was entirely gihren's idea.
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Mar 12, 2020 20:00
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didn't zeon have like a third of earth's land conquered at the start of the show? i thought the whole fundamental concept of the war was that the zaku was such a huge tech advantage that zeon was able to beat back earth's superior manufacturing with relative ease before the introduction of the gundam and eventual GMs. they were already stalemated at show start, and it wasn't that long before zeon was rolling out suits even better than the zaku like goufs and doms. no other tech advancements towards having mobile suits other than the gundam and derived GMs is even hinted at for the federation i'm pretty sure, once doms are hitting the field i can't imagine even the earth's manufacturing capabilities was really going to be beating back zeon. i would sooner believe "the zabis all simultaneously stab each other in the back the moment it looks like victory is assured." even assuming that earth does spam enough tanks to beat mobile suits, as soon as zeon starts losing the land war i'd guess they shift right back to bullshit like colony drops to finish the federation off
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Mar 12, 2020 20:05
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I always assumed the reason Zeon was able to conquer so much ground was because the Federation didn’t really have much of an infrastructure for ground defense. Why bother having a large land army when your only threat is small space based organizations? Which is why when they got it together they took Odessa with Tanks and Fighters.
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Mar 12, 2020 20:43
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zeon had a bunch of huge advantages they pissed away on boondoggles and amuro. their initial success was due to a combination of invalidating all the good federation weapons technology with minovsky particles and then introducing mobile suits which were perfectly suited for this new environment. zeon might have been able to raze all federation forces from the earth, but instead they tried to conquer and occupy territory. that's something their tech advantage would never be able to accomplish.
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Mar 12, 2020 20:47
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ninjewtsu posted:didn't zeon have like a third of earth's land conquered at the start of the show? i thought the whole fundamental concept of the war was that the zaku was such a huge tech advantage that zeon was able to beat back earth's superior manufacturing with relative ease before the introduction of the gundam and eventual GMs. they were already stalemated at show start, and it wasn't that long before zeon was rolling out suits even better than the zaku like goufs and doms. no other tech advancements towards having mobile suits other than the gundam and derived GMs is even hinted at for the federation i'm pretty sure, once doms are hitting the field i can't imagine even the earth's manufacturing capabilities was really going to be beating back zeon. Zeon's initial gains were largely due to sheer shock and awe. They had a small, powerful, elite force that struck mostly without warning against a somnolent military that was used to supremacy and absolutely wasn't on guard for an attack and invasion of the magnitude Zeon came out with at the start of the OYW. By the time we see the situation on Earth in MSG, the situation had stagnated; Zeon's rapid conquest of territory had largely stopped and the Federation elastic had bounced back into rigidity, as it were. Zeon was developing more advanced technology to deploy, but their numbers were always horribly limited. Char got bitched out and put in the doghouse for losing a few Zaku IIs(the most common and widely produced Zeon suit) to the Gundam, as an example. It's unlikely that they could have cranked out enough Goufs and/or Doms to really keep the tide from turning, especially given what we see at Odessa, where the Federation assaulted a vital Zeon invasion stronghold with effectively a completely conventional force and kicked Zeon's rear end hard enough that M'Quve's highest priority was "steal as many resources as we can so that when we get our asses kicked into space we can keep fighting". Without the Gundam and the GMs, the war would have ground on much longer and quite possibly would have led to an armistice, but Zeon had absolutely no chance at conquering the planet through anything other than a complete capitulation of the Federation's will to resist(which was basically nipped in the bud by Revil's speech).
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Mar 12, 2020 21:36
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Onmi posted:One of my big dislikes of Zeta is that the Federations MS design stopped being clean. I liked the GM as the "Build on this base" suit but since the Titans had to be the villains, they had to start getting Zeonic designs. There's something lost there when the MS progression becomes mixed and muddled and you can't really follow and clean line through. Only really applies to Titan designs, those by the regular Federation forces overall retain that clean aesthetic gimme the GOD drat candy posted:zeon just plain never had the resources or manpower to conquer earth. but if they had stayed in space then eventually the federation's unchecked war production would have overwhelmed them anyway. i guess they could have started doing orbital bombardments (with objects smaller than colonies) on launch sites to keep the flow of troops into space in check, but that would be a whole other arms race the feds still might win. zeon never seemed terribly interested in suppression or containment, though. making 50 different mobile suits/armors exclusively for fighting on earth was vastly preferable to ever questioning if they should be fighting on earth at all. Well it did get mass produced in The Origin(taking over the slot that the Bigro holds in the regular continuity) gourdcaptain posted:One of my favorite mech things in After War Gundam X is during one of the arcs where the Federation-equivalent of that universe are the villains, they send villain-of-the-week suits that are mutations of the Gundam/GM design philosophy in most cases as an equivalent to the Zeon suit of the week. We see some of that in SEED and SEED Destiny too
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Mar 12, 2020 22:07
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GimmickMan posted:With Norris superpowers of inducing massive incompetence on everyone around him and turning the fight choreography into garbage, he would not have just killed Amuro but also MSG as a series. I don't know, given how often people treat the Gouf fight as the best thing ever I think it's possible it'd have helped the show despite itself because bombastic animation is more important than good choreography to some degree. gimme the GOD drat candy posted:i bet the part about invading earth was entirely gihren's idea. It's likely the entire war was Gihren's idea. The narrator specifies that Degwin ceded power to Gihren prior to the war and that after he did so, Gihren declared war and it's pretty clear once Degwin is introduced that he has no real emotional stake in it's outcome and just wants it done. Granted, we only see him after Garma's death, but even then, he seems like someone who was never really interested in it. During the "Hitler" scene for instance, Degwin states that he had transformed Side 3 in to a Duchy to help further Deikun's ideals and that the Federation recognized them as the first independent nation afterwards or something and that seems to have been as far as he was willing or interested in taking things. Gihren also implies that the war is at least partially a front for his desire to reduce the human population and thus, the burden of resources, as well as make it easier to control the remainder. ninjewtsu posted:didn't zeon have like a third of earth's land conquered at the start of the show? i thought the whole fundamental concept of the war was that the zaku was such a huge tech advantage that zeon was able to beat back earth's superior manufacturing with relative ease before the introduction of the gundam and eventual GMs. Everything Zeon gained, they gained in the first weeks of the war and the war had been at a stalemate for 6+ months despite the presence of Zakus because the Federation were capable of defending that last little bit regardless of the drastic difference in technological capability through sheer numbers, resources and industrial capacity. It demonstrably didn't matter that Zeon had a huge tech advantage, and it wasn't until the GM was just about ready to roll off the lot that Zeon started rolling out suits that were a marked improvement over the Zaku II in enough numbers to matter. If Amuro and/or the Gundam hadn't existed, then the Federation would just have taken longer to get to where they were in the show and better suits like the Gelgoog weren't going to make a massive difference on their own, because the Zaku II was already so much of a power multiplier over anything the Federation was fielding and yet couldn't finish the job due to the numbers they were facing. You say the Federation weren't fielding any other advancements, but (a) that's not entirely true, since the White Base itself was also a tech advancement, as was the Guncannon to some degree, and even the Guntank really and (b) the Gundam (or Project V as a whole really) introduced several massive tech jumps that Zeon were only really starting to surpass by show's end. Given more time, they were probably going to be capable of aping Zeon's technology and improving it again, just like with the Gundam, because again, better resources. Ethiser posted:I always assumed the reason Zeon was able to conquer so much ground was because the Federation didn’t really have much of an infrastructure for ground defense. Why bother having a large land army when your only threat is small space based organizations? Which is why when they got it together they took Odessa with Tanks and Fighters. I imagine that the reason Zeon was able to conquer so much ground was because the colony drop destroyed a lot of the ground defense forces the Federation did have, and threw what remained in to so much chaos that Zeon were able to sweep in and brush them aside before they could put up a proper defense.
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Mar 13, 2020 01:04
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tsob posted:I don't know, given how often people treat the Gouf fight as the best thing ever I think it's possible it'd have helped the show despite itself because bombastic animation is more important than good choreography to some degree. We're is seen multiple times basically being forced into things by Gihren. Like even with Farms he's like "I just want a small funeral to mourn my son" while Gihren arranges a god damned state funeral rally speech.
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Mar 13, 2020 02:19
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GimmickMan posted:With Norris superpowers of inducing massive incompetence on everyone around him and turning the fight choreography into garbage, he would not have just killed Amuro but also MSG as a series. The fight choreography... wasn't bad though? Karen and Sanders dropped the ball pretty hard though.
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Mar 13, 2020 02:35
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MechaX posted:The fight choreography... wasn't bad though? You have to admit the transformation sequence was a little gratuitous. 
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Mar 13, 2020 02:43
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ImpAtom posted:I think that's intentional though because the Federation started poaching Zeon's designers and such. Them becoming muddled makes perfect sense both thematically and in-universe. I thought it was amusing how the Titans used the Hizack since it was literally just the Zaku with a barely different name.
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Mar 13, 2020 02:50
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:zeon had a bunch of huge advantages they pissed away on boondoggles and amuro. their initial success was due to a combination of invalidating all the good federation weapons technology with minovsky particles and then introducing mobile suits which were perfectly suited for this new environment. zeon might have been able to raze all federation forces from the earth, but instead they tried to conquer and occupy territory. that's something their tech advantage would never be able to accomplish.
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Mar 13, 2020 02:59
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 drat that's good timing.
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Mar 13, 2020 03:40
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Welp, Narrative premiered on YouTube. It was just as nonsensical as I remember from the theater last year.
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Mar 13, 2020 05:32
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Who is this person and why are they a genius On one hand, I do enjoy the sea of GM-derivatives. On the other hand they get really boring fast in GBO2.
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Mar 13, 2020 07:55
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Warmachine posted:Welp, Narrative premiered on YouTube. It was just as nonsensical as I remember from the theater last year. I re-watched Narrative during the premiere with some friends who are Gundam fans but who had never seen it, and it confirmed my initial reaction: It's pretty impressive to me how goddamn bad Narrative is as a movie, even if you're a huge Gundam fan. Even Stardust Memory is more competently put together and has some better, more memorable characters, which should say a lot. The characters in Narrative all remind me of Banagher. They're mostly just shadowy outlines of Gundam stereotypes, without character or personalities of their own, that rely on the viewer to fill in their character traits using their knowledge of existing Gundam tropes. The only two characters that feel like they have any life to them or a unique story to tell are Michele(who would have been an infinitely more interesting main character than Jona) and Zoltan(who has an awful design and a terrible backstory but his performance is loving excellent so he's pretty much the only character in the movie who is allowed to have a personality). I think the movie's greatest sin isn't its nothing plot or bad characters, it's the decision to fill the movie with 30000 flashbacks, many of which are nearly identical to previous flashbacks, instead of telling the story mostly in sequence. Fukui either forgot his concept of pacing from Unicorn or no one bothered to rein him in and say "no, don't do this" this time, but pretty much every single major action sequence in the movie is brought to a screeching halt by at least two flashbacks, killing any form of tension or pacing and simply annoying the audience. Any time the viewer might maybe start getting wrapped up in what's going on, the movie yanks them back by the collar and says "No, watch this flashback of Rita speaking cryptically to Jona for the 8th time" and it suuuuuucks because for all the movie's flaws the action sequences are pretty good. I showed them December Sky for the first time right after Narrative and the reaction was night and day. It also gave me a really big appreciation for how succinct and well put together December Sky is - it has 20 minutes less runtime than Narrative to work with, but does an infinitely better job introducing all the characters, giving them distinct personality traits and motivations, and explaining the plot to the viewer in a way that - unlike Narrative - has absolutely no reliance on outside sources to make complete sense and reach a satisfying conclusion.
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Mar 13, 2020 17:27
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Yeah, Narrative is just kind of trash. The only highlights for me is that after the gradual escalation of newtype feats in Unicorn, NT just kind of casually surpasses it without any buildup. Eat poo poo Banagher, I guess? And, I guess how Jona reunites with his two childhood friends/stronger-willed girlfriends and then they dump him, join hands with Zoltan (after stopping his latest suicide attempt) and leave him behind. There's so much better material to adapt. Probably the best thing NT has to add to the Gundam canon is Zoltan's DOME-esque statement that humanity trying to force newtypes into existence is poo poo. Other poo poo that could be adapted: Federation Hooligans is fun though it does become a complicated conspiracy by the end. There's some fun poking at Zeon Deikun but imo it kind of gets dragged down by "Federation corrupt" because of how that tends to be used to prop up Zeon. Unfortunately the pseudo-sequel Gundam Katana kind of dives into newtype stuff and it's not great. Return of Johnny Ridden kind of gets overloaded with showing off too many MSVs but it's still a fun romp and it does explore post-OYW society, albeit through the lens of all these groups of veterans who've walked different paths.
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Mar 14, 2020 02:47
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Argas posted:Yeah, Narrative is just kind of trash. The only highlights for me is that after the gradual escalation of newtype feats in Unicorn, NT just kind of casually surpasses it without any buildup. Eat poo poo Banagher, I guess? And, I guess how Jona reunites with his two childhood friends/stronger-willed girlfriends and then they dump him, join hands with Zoltan (after stopping his latest suicide attempt) and leave him behind. Hooligans is weird. I don't think it's bad, but it feels very un-gundam. I will say there's one thing RoJR, FH and 0083 Rebellion have all shown me... There is a MASSIVE hard-on for the G-Fighter. There are SO MANY G-FIGHTERS! They keep trying to make it a 'thing' and make it work and it never does.
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Mar 14, 2020 03:45
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Onmi posted:Hooligans is weird. I don't think it's bad, but it feels very un-gundam. I will say there's one thing RoJR, FH and 0083 Rebellion have all shown me... There is a MASSIVE hard-on for the G-Fighter. There are SO MANY G-FIGHTERS! They keep trying to make it a 'thing' and make it work and it never does. Oh definitely, I just enjoy the stupidest children being shoved into MS and being told to fight a war, and they're all adults.
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Mar 14, 2020 03:50
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Onmi posted:Hooligans is weird. I don't think it's bad, but it feels very un-gundam. I will say there's one thing RoJR, FH and 0083 Rebellion have all shown me... There is a MASSIVE hard-on for the G-Fighter. There are SO MANY G-FIGHTERS! They keep trying to make it a 'thing' and make it work and it never does. I love the one that serves as a troop carrier. It's just such a beautifully crazy idea.
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Mar 14, 2020 04:02
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Argas posted:Yeah, Narrative is just kind of trash. The only highlights for me is that after the gradual escalation of newtype feats in Unicorn, NT just kind of casually surpasses it without any buildup. Eat poo poo Banagher, I guess? And, I guess how Jona reunites with his two childhood friends/stronger-willed girlfriends and then they dump him, join hands with Zoltan (after stopping his latest suicide attempt) and leave him behind. The Plot to Assassinate Gihren Zabi is amazing. Edit: Also loving Gaia Gear. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP3TqH0iEc0
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Mar 14, 2020 04:57
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