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Fister Roboto posted:Then can you at least understand that for me and a lot of other people, there is zero or minimal difference between Trump and Biden? That we think that four years of Biden would be worse in the long term, by creating the conditions that will lead to the rise of a competent fascist? That we're absolutely loving sick of this stupid good cop/bad cop game the Democrats are playing with us and we'd rather burn it down than go another round in it? My response to this, as it always has been, that viewing those two as equivalent, or Democrats as a monolith, and voting as such, dooms an incredible number of people to death and despair. Biden is not the man this country needs—he is, at best, a band-aid. But a band-aid means fewer people going hungry in the streets from SNAP cuts. It means less public land and sacred places like Bears Ears being sold off to developers. It means clearer skies and cleaner water due to competent leadership from the EPA. It means fewer people dying from preventable illnesses. Fewer people being denied their voting rights. Fewer people being discriminated against for who they are. Fewer people getting sick and dying from an international pandemic. If your conscience can't bring yourself to vote for Biden, that is a personal decision. And I agree that Biden won't save this country. But maybe he'll stop the bleeding—and in the short term, that means a hell of a lot to a hell of a lot of people. And because of that, if Biden is the nominee, and he's on the ballot in november, my conscience won't let me vote any other way.
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Mar 27, 2020 23:20
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Fister Roboto posted:Then can you at least understand that for me and a lot of other people, there is zero or minimal difference between Trump and Biden? That we think that four years of Biden would be worse in the long term, by creating the conditions that will lead to the rise of a competent fascist? That we're absolutely loving sick of this stupid good cop/bad cop game the Democrats are playing with us and we'd rather burn it down than go another round in it? Stop being so obtuse. I have a really hard time how people can't recognize some pretty loving obvious differences such as: Not slashing funding to the CDC and disbanding things like pandemic offices or other vital parts of the federal government. Listening to scientists and other experts that aren't son-in-laws. Probably taking action weeks/months ago for COVID. Not staying at his own properties and charging the government for their use/stay. An Obama like foreign policy. Stronger efforts for more gun control. Push for renewables and climate change action. Participating in things like the Paris Agreement. Not suspending environmental protections. Qualified judiciary appointments. Not building a southern border wall. And this list was done in 2 minutes.
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Mar 27, 2020 23:32
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I'm going to vote for Biden, but there is a good argument for not voting for him from a left or even liberal position 1) he's not going to win anyway. He's actively refusing to campaign, he has contempt for a huge number of the dem voters he needs, his entire career is material for targeted negative campaign ads, and the forces of social reaction and money are firmly behind Trump. So given that, 2) not voting for him makes your vote meaningful. The sheep like nature of democratic voters is why the Bidens and Clintons of the world exist in the first place. Democrats, both voters and the party, as evidenced by this thread, have internalized the perverse logic that says voters owe their votes to the party. Once you accept that logic, the party has no reason to fight for your vote. Republicans would never accept a guy as far left as Biden's career has been on the right. That's because chuds, for all their vices, have some measure of understanding that their chosen political party should cater to them. A refusal to vote for Biden sends the signal that the Dems need to cater to their voters too.
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Mar 27, 2020 23:34
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Best Friends posted:1) he's not going to win anyway. He's actively refusing to campaign You just gotta let Trump be Trump, that'll convince everyone to vote Joe 
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Mar 27, 2020 23:38
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Zamujasa posted:You just gotta let Trump be Trump, that'll convince everyone to vote Joe 
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Mar 27, 2020 23:39
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Correct! I'm not voting for either rapist.
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Mar 27, 2020 23:40
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TCD posted:
gently caress off if you think thats a positive
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Mar 27, 2020 23:40
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PookBear posted:gently caress off if you think thats a positive
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Mar 27, 2020 23:42
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we were in afghanistan and iraq longer under obama than bush, hope that helps you absolute poo poo for brains
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Mar 27, 2020 23:42
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Best Friends posted:2) not voting for him makes your vote meaningful. The sheep like nature of democratic voters is why the Bidens and Clintons of the world exist in the first place. Democrats, both voters and the party, as evidenced by this thread, have internalized the perverse logic that says voters owe their votes to the party. Once you accept that logic, the party has no reason to fight for your vote. Republicans would never accept a guy as far left as Biden's career has been on the right. That's because chuds, for all their vices, have some measure of understanding that their chosen political party should cater to them. A refusal to vote for Biden sends the signal that the Dems need to cater to their voters too. Bullshit - the reason why Bidens and the Clintons of the world exist is because there's a large part of the democratic base that favor that type of candidate. The primaries reflect that very fact and the challenge for the democrat party is how to reconcile that some of these voices are now in deeply R states. Fister Roboto et. al are like the tea party of the republicans wanting to be so far right of mainstream Rs. Except, somehow, the far right was actually able to get their candidate to the general in 2016. So far, the progressive left is just a bunch of poo poo posting on the internet while the rank and file largely fall inline under Biden at the ballot box.
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Mar 27, 2020 23:42
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PookBear posted:we were in afghanistan and iraq longer under obama than bush, hope that helps you absolute poo poo for brains Yeah there's this thing called the 22nd Amendment...
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Mar 27, 2020 23:44
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PookBear posted:we were in afghanistan and iraq longer under obama than bush, hope that helps you absolute poo poo for brains It's almost as if a foreign policy is more than two countries.
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Mar 27, 2020 23:45
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TCD posted:Bullshit - the reason why Bidens and the Clintons of the world exist is because there's a large part of the democratic base that favor that type of candidate. The primaries reflect that very fact and the challenge for the democrat party is how to reconcile that some of these voices are now in deeply R states. Fister Roboto et. al are like the tea party of the republicans wanting to be so far right of mainstream Rs. Except, somehow, the far right was actually able to get their candidate to the general in 2016. So far, the progressive left is just a bunch of poo poo posting on the internet while the rank and file largely fall inline under Biden at the ballot box. Biden was an also ran until the eve of super Tuesday when the entire Dem apparatus endorsed him. Dem voters did what they were told, like they always do, and this time the result is tragic. Assuming he becomes the nominee, he's easily the weakest Dem nominee of my lifetime. Kerry and H Clinton are high energy fighters for democratic values in comparison.
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Mar 27, 2020 23:47
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gg osama won lmao
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Mar 27, 2020 23:48
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the debate of whether a democratic administration would or would not have materially different court appointments is useless academic vitriol, because there won't be one for quite a few more years. last week i accepted that sanders wouldn't win the election either. anything can happen, but most of the things i think could happen, i don't think would be good news. i've been using my spare time to do wellness check calls; the shahid buttar campaign is calling every volunteer they've ever had, both to see if we need anything that we can give each other, and to prepare to direct us to give mutual aid more broadly. i strongly recommend anyone with influence on any political group, church, or whatever, whose normal activities are on hold, to get them to do something like that.
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Mar 27, 2020 23:48
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Also "Biden, court appointment hero" is an extremely funny take when he fought harder than anyone to put Thomas on the bench, and was chummy with Alito during the hearings. That said, I agree he's going to nominate moderate liberals from a list, because we all know an extremely hypothetical President Biden isn't making a lot of his own decisions.
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Mar 27, 2020 23:51
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Zamujasa posted:Correct! I'm not voting for either rapist. This de facto supports the incumbent rapist.
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Mar 27, 2020 23:53
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:This de facto supports the incumbent rapist. Maybe the Dems should've pushed a little harder for someone who wasn't a rapist? 
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Mar 27, 2020 23:55
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please vote for the correct rapist
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Mar 27, 2020 23:55
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The tea party movement happened in part because of a massive coordinated effort between right wing media outlets like Fox and billionaire donors like the Koch brothers to generate a grassroots movement designed to reverse the Democratic gains of 2008, using the healthcare law in particular to generate momentum against candidates to voted to marginally improve the healthcare death machine. Looking towards the changes the Republican Party has undergone as a model for the Democratic Party is thus a huge mistake, as Republican voters are encouraged and directed by a centralized propaganda network that simply does not and will never exist on the left. PookBear posted:gently caress off if you think thats a positive Iran Nuclear Deal, Paris Climate Accords, and ending the blockade with Cuba were all hugely positive accomplishments by Obama. He was lacking in a huge number of ways, but restoring the US to a global leadership role as Biden would likely do should be seen as a giant point in his favor—especially since that leadership role will be needed to pursue a truly global effort against Climate Change, either by Biden or (more likely) his successor. oh and going back to this: Best Friends posted:I'm extremely skeptical of the "hide during a crisis" school of auditioning to be president. It sounds a lot like rationalization for a guy who either can't or won't actively campaign. Biden hasn't 'disappeared,' he's now doing regular livestreams and interviews from his home. (Like seriously there was literally one going on when I went to grab that tweet earlier). And if you think he shouldn't be in his home... what should he be doing? Giant rallies? Running around DC personally? The thing is, if you think he should be more visible to counter Trump's media appearances, that's really not something he can realistically do. The advantage of being President is that the media will cover whatever you say (Especially in a crisis), you have the oval office as a backdrop, and you have an immense amount of power you can wield to address the crisis. For the reverse of this, see what the Romney campaign went through during Hurricane Sandy in their attempts to try and "do something"—bungled food drives, tepid criticism of the president, and a whole lot of impotence while Obama got to stand on devastated beaches, looking presidential, getting hugs from Chris Christie. No matter what Biden wants to do, there's not a whole heck of a lot he can do that will break through the noise, and that goes for any other politician challenging an incumbent during a crisis.
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Mar 28, 2020 00:01
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Best Friends posted:Also "Biden, court appointment hero" is an extremely funny take when he fought harder than anyone to put Thomas on the bench, and was chummy with Alito during the hearings. ...Biden voted against both of them e: like I understand his role re: Anita Hill but to say "he fought harder than anyone to put Thomas on the bench" is ludicrous hyperbole, and people really need to stop taking hyperbole as fact. Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Mar 28, 2020 |
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Mar 28, 2020 00:05
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Best Friends posted:Also "Biden, court appointment hero" is an extremely funny take when he fought harder than anyone to put Thomas on the bench, and was chummy with Alito during the hearings. That said, I agree he's going to nominate moderate liberals from a list, because we all know an extremely hypothetical President Biden isn't making a lot of his own decisions. Dude if you're not even gonna bother to get basic facts right...
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Mar 28, 2020 00:09
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Acebuckeye13 posted:...Biden voted against both of them You mean a Twitter Left meme...isn't accurate?
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Mar 28, 2020 00:11
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TCD posted:Bullshit - the reason why Bidens and the Clintons of the world exist is because there's a large part of the democratic base that favor that type of candidate. The primaries reflect that very fact and the challenge for the democrat party is how to reconcile that some of these voices are now in deeply R states. Fister Roboto et. al are like the tea party of the republicans wanting to be so far right of mainstream Rs. Except, somehow, the far right was actually able to get their candidate to the general in 2016. So far, the progressive left is just a bunch of poo poo posting on the internet while the rank and file largely fall inline under Biden at the ballot box. And the "large part" of the democratic base doesn't effect my personal vote. the DNC establishment can suck my left nut if they think I'm going to vote for Biden just because he's a democrat. He's so far appeared to be a spineless, conservative, sexist old white dude. The progressive left have been active at the local level and gaining ground. The national level is going to hell in a handbasket because of the assumption that Biden will get votes for being not-Trump
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Mar 28, 2020 00:12
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Can you all start another thread to bitch about Biden and discuss how lovely the Dems are as a party? It's been non-stop all week, and it's exhausting and I'm positive all you dudes are doing is making your own anxiety worse by posting constantly about how awful he is and how badly he is going to lose the election.
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Mar 28, 2020 00:13
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Acebuckeye13 posted:...Biden voted against both of them So is the story that Biden didn't want to clear the field for Thomas, but he just was really outraged that a woman came forward? It seems extremely obvious what the game was there. Biden has been iffy on abortion and chummy with hard right figures his whole career. I am very eager to hear your explanation for why he went hard on Anita Hill
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Mar 28, 2020 00:15
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Fister Roboto posted:Then can you at least understand that for me and a lot of other people, there is zero or minimal difference between Trump and Biden? That we think that four years of Biden would be worse in the long term, by creating the conditions that will lead to the rise of a competent fascist? That we're absolutely loving sick of this stupid good cop/bad cop game the Democrats are playing with us and we'd rather burn it down than go another round in it? Hi there, I'm going to write an angry as gently caress reply to this. You need to understand the situation the world is facing right now. Here in New Zealand, we have not quite 500 cases confirmed yet, and the entire country is staring down the barrel of anywhere up to 18 months of lockdown, whether partial or full. These claims coming out about Biden are incredibly disturbing, and in literally any other time period in the last 50 years should and I hope would be an instant disqualification. But these are not normal times. So far, Trump's body count through complete inaction, is over 1500. Is what happened to this woman awful? Absolutely. Should Biden face trial for it? Definitely. But not yet. Because if this becomes a disqualifier for him, then you are putting one person's horrific experience ahead of god knows how many who are going to loving die because of this virus. I haven't seen one single shred of evidence to suggest that Trump has any kind of overarching grand plan, or even a next step in place for this loving thing. It may already be too late to bring this thing back under control, I don't know. But what I do know, is that if Trump stays in power, he will continue to gently caress things up even worse, and the death toll is going to climb into the hundreds of thousands if not millions. You no longer have the option of refusing to vote for the lesser of two evils, because a lot of people have already died and countless more will if this is not stopped. Or, you can stay home in November and congratulate yourself for not breaking your moral standards, and I hope for your sake that none of those bodies belong to anyone you know. NB this post assumes Biden is the nominee
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Mar 28, 2020 00:20
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btw don't fly united https://twitter.com/matthewstoller/status/1243626367092219905
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Mar 28, 2020 00:20
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Or, you can stay home in November Thanks for the angry reply. When the gently caress have I ever said that I'm not going to vote at all? And gently caress you, if this is so important that lives are on the line, then the Democrats need to make drat sure that they're nominating the best possible candidate to beat Trump. Biden is not that candidate. I do not accept responsibility for his failure. Fister Roboto fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Mar 28, 2020 |
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Mar 28, 2020 00:21
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Eej posted:btw don't fly united I mean they'd already filled out the paperwork, it would've been such a waste to not go ahead with it
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Mar 28, 2020 00:29
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It would save everyone time if you had just said "I'm a dedicated third-party purity voter, so only engage with me if you understand that fully."
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Mar 28, 2020 00:30
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The point he's trying to make is that Biden needs to make some sort of visible effort at promoting policies that will actually help people. And not just accept that any policy will help people more than trump is, because thats a bullshit argument despite it being a factual truth.
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Mar 28, 2020 00:35
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M_Gargantua posted:thats a bullshit argument despite it being a factual truth.  why?Let's imagine you tier candidates this way, with top being best and bottom being worst. quote:Magical Person How does that explain that aiding Trump's reelection is better than not?
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Mar 28, 2020 00:38
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If people who aren't going to vote for Biden need to accept responsibility for anyone who dies under Trump, then the Biden voters need to accept responsibility for anyone who dies under Biden. And there absolutely will be people who die as a direct result of his policies. He said he would veto any M4A bill, remember?
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Mar 28, 2020 00:39
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 I am the candidate in favor of actively burning you to death.  Oh yeah, I'm the candidate who's boring, but I prefer the status quo, where you are not actively burning you to death. But I might not care to optimize the fire department, and also I'm really old and lame. Gawrsh, I'm so confused as to who to choose!Alternately:  I have elected to vote for none of the dumbasses above, which means inherently aiding the incumbent. That's the guy who wants to burn you to death.
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Mar 28, 2020 00:41
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mlmp08 posted:
If you actually want to be accurate with this, then Biden is campaigning in favor of not putting out people who are currently on fire.
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Mar 28, 2020 00:45
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Fister Roboto posted:If you actually want to be accurate with this, then Biden is campaigning in favor of not putting out people who are currently on fire. Literally better than actively lighting more people on fire.
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Mar 28, 2020 00:46
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Fister Roboto posted:If people who aren't going to vote for Biden need to accept responsibility for anyone who dies under Trump, then the Biden voters need to accept responsibility for anyone who dies under Biden. And there absolutely will be people who die as a direct result of his policies. He said he would veto any M4A bill, remember? Can you please either say what you think people should do instead, or shut the gently caress up, because you've done nothing but poo poo up this thread so far and it's getting really tedious.
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Mar 28, 2020 00:46
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This kind of arguing is why I keep saying I'm going to vote Bigfoot. Joe will handily take Colorado, even though we went for Bernie in the primary. Just gonna scribble in Bigfoot with a side of Garfield for VP (he runs a lasagna4all heavy platform) and vote progressively on the rest of my ballot, that I get to fill out in the comfort of my home, because we have mail in voting and every state that doesn't is lame.
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Mar 28, 2020 00:50
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Fister Roboto posted:Thanks for the angry reply. When the gently caress have I ever said that I'm not going to vote at all? It's trite, but Voltaire was right with "Perfect is the enemy of good". Right now, the US doesn't have time for perfect, re: this current shitfuck going on in the country. Sitting around and waiting about perfect and refusing to support good, will wind up with Trump in office again. Maybe if COVID-19 hadn't been a thing, but now the US and the world is up against the wall. If the Democrats somehow nominate another candidate that's great. If not, pissing and moaning on the internet and voting write-in for Bernie or Kamala Harris or Buttigieg or whoever the heck winds you up is precisely the wrong choice. Biden will handle the next 18 months way the gently caress better than ANYTHING Trump can come up with. If you let Trump run unchecked for the next 18 months, the US will be looking at drat near 6.5 million dead in the US alone, because Trump will not implement proper controls or appoint the appropriate people to the appropriate places for crisis management. I don't like Joe Biden either (I much prefer Bernie Sanders for President), but I absolutely realize that he is an infinitely better pick than a bumbling moron like Trump. If only for the fact that he will nominate people who know what the gently caress to do to appropriate places and then get the gently caress out of the way if he isn't an expert in the thing.
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Mar 28, 2020 00:51
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