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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:
The answer to both those questions is almost certainly yes.
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Mar 28, 2020 09:39
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galagazombie posted:I think you're missing the point. Yes you can "choose" to do this, but it's a false choice when you're offered no alternatives besides "Eat poo poo and wait behind several million Genoshans or live in a society that has open contempt for you now that you can't shoot lasers out your rear end". galagazombie posted:Saying humans are all the same who are all irredeemable seems pretty racist to me. Almost like saying all mutants are the same is racist.
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Mar 28, 2020 10:51
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BrianWilly posted:Putting it another way...is there nothing that you want that would be worth going through the Crucible for? I mean, I've already mentioned how the resurrection process opens up interesting stories about gender identity and stuff. But ok, if I knew for a fact that I would be rebuilt as a 100% AFAB indistinguishably cis-looking woman if I allowed myself to get killed by a violent tyrant with a sword in front of a crowd of cheering spectators, no, I would not take it, because in principle I think I'm opposed to violent tyrants being encouraged to publicly kill people in desperate need of help in gruesome displays of sovereignty. If I knew it would mean bringing back somebody I loved or curing them of a disease or something maybe I would but I'd hate myself for it and I'd hate everybody who made it the only option. The moral option I guess, within this fantastical context in which death is temporary and being provisionally killed is the only way depowered mutants can get repowered, would be to not involve a violent tyrant getting to publicly kill them with swords. Surely there is mutant euthanasia. If I had to get macabre about it I'd say that if a mutant wanted to die expressly in order to be reborn they could have a telepath shut down their pain receptors and put them into a deep sleep and then do whatever. If they had to get bumped to the back of the queue so what. If I hypothetically lived on Krakoa I'd rather be bumped to the back of queue than legitimize the Crucible. The point is that it's bloodthirsty and makes a fetish out of martyrdom-- I guess in a civilization where death is inconsequential why not make a fetish out of martyrdom, to some extent, but I still don't like it and again, I think that, as a reader, the intended effect is probably revulsion. Note that almost all of our reader-identification characters in the issue are ambiguous about the Crucible at best. Let's imagine this scenario without the grandiosity of death being on the line, or the peculiar position that this storyline makes us re-evaluate death in. If there was a story where depowered mutants could get their powers back only after a brutal hazing ritual in which they were mercilessly beaten, wouldn't that seem like naked cruelty? How Wonderful! fucked around with this message at 11:16 on Mar 28, 2020 |
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Mar 28, 2020 11:13
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How Wonderful! posted:Let's imagine this scenario without the grandiosity of death being on the line, or the peculiar position that this storyline makes us re-evaluate death in. If there was a story where depowered mutants could get their powers back only after a brutal hazing ritual in which they were mercilessly beaten, wouldn't that seem like naked cruelty? The point of hazing is the cruelty. And despite Crucible being cruel, I don't think you can argue in good faith that the point of it is cruelty.
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Mar 28, 2020 11:27
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:is there a backup system for cloning? or, since this is x-men, is there some hosed up time paradox? Sinister was probably running the first resurrections with Xavier until they had the five back to formalize the process
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Mar 28, 2020 12:01
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Adder Moray posted:But it's not hazing. The entire point of hazing is the humiliation and the inability to lash out against those doing the hazing under penalty of being denied the thing you're after. The humiliation that comes with hazing is a side product, not the point. Hazing is about proving your worth and, more critically, going through a process that the hazers did. Joining a club of people who had to go through the same thing. There's a perverse concept of tradition in it. Which makes the crucible even worse, because there is no tradition. They chose this method recently. Apocalypse never had to prove his worth, neither did the people watching it. Obviously there were other, less cruel options here. But this is a case where the chosen option works for the story. If you've got loving Apocalypse as a leader on Krakoa, you need to address his (incorrect in nature) beliefs in the survival of the fittest.
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Mar 28, 2020 13:18
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Finally snagged a copy of the Jeam/Emma Giant Sized issue and more Dauterman/Wilson all the time, please.
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Mar 28, 2020 16:47
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I think GZ is correctly identifying some the negative social pressures that are part of pushing this in a gross fascist religious direction. But it's complicated. I love every bonkers thing happening so far.
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Mar 28, 2020 17:43
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danbanana posted:Finally snagged a copy of the Jeam/Emma Giant Sized issue and more Dauterman/Wilson all the time, please. I believe Dauterman will be back for the Storm issue.
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Mar 28, 2020 22:55
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Open Marriage Night posted:I believe Dauterman will be back for the Storm issue. I said ALL the time. Pumped.
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Mar 28, 2020 22:59
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Nevvy Z posted:I think GZ is correctly identifying some the negative social pressures that are part of pushing this in a gross fascist religious direction. But it's complicated. I love every bonkers thing happening so far.
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Mar 28, 2020 23:15
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Nessus posted:Yeah I don't think anything Apocalypse has been doing has been "good." At best he is going to have some kind of role in Moira's grand plan that works towards positive ends, and has neutral side effects along the way. It has certainly been showing he is not just a guy with big lips who says "EVOLUTION" before he shoots you with a doom ray, at least. Yeah. Excalibur's a good example which had him setting up Jamie Braddock of all people as king of Otherworld. It's part of the plan to ensure mutant well being, but it's also Jamie Braddock so my goodness.
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Mar 28, 2020 23:31
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Apocalypse played a big part in getting the Nimrod information during Moira's 10th life. He's also very onboard with Krakoa as a concept so it's hard to say he's not being "good" when his whole shtick has been adopted by Charles and everyone else. Hell, it's been interesting to see all these characters still remain true to themselves while also aligning with each other. I mean the council has Apocalypse, Shaw, SINISTER, Mystique, and Erik. Krakoa is definitely operating and running nowhere near "good". Charles himself started X-Force this time around.
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Mar 28, 2020 23:35
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Apocalypse played a big part in getting the Nimrod information during Moira's 10th life. He's also very onboard with Krakoa as a concept so it's hard to say he's not being "good" when his whole shtick has been adopted by Charles and everyone else. Hell, it's been interesting to see all these characters still remain true to themselves while also aligning with each other. I mean the council has Apocalypse, Shaw, SINISTER, Mystique, and Erik. Krakoa is definitely operating and running nowhere near "good". Charles himself started X-Force this time around. I assume Shaw will not be on the council for that much longer
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Mar 29, 2020 01:03
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I think a distinction has to be made between something that is..."good," and something that is understandable. Krakoa does a lot of good, but at a great cost as well. Even beyond the race rhetoric, or the clone dystopia, or the suicide rituals clothed as self-care, there are hundreds of other objectionable issues about it that not a single writer has come close to even touching on, including the amount of families it must have split apart and the fact that its governing party is utterly oligarchic with no established successional rules. But...it really is all still understandable. You understand why they're doing things this way, you understand why certain characters would be fine with it and why others wouldn't be, and it sucks that the characters that wouldn't be don't really get much internal agency here other than to mutter every so often about how conflicted they are about things. But even then you still understand why they're just so tired enough of the old ways to at least be complacent about the new ways, because their actual in-universe alternative is to go back to the way things were when they were written by Matthew Rosenberg. And that's a fate no one should be hoping for.
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Mar 29, 2020 01:35
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It's not out of Apocalypse's character to be hypocritical so it makes sense but really he should be hopping on board with Nimrod who's been the most fit on Earth in multiple timelines.
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Mar 29, 2020 01:43
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I just want a "rock on the eternal shore" moment. In fact, I want all of Apoc's scenes to be that moment. That's all the dude needs to do and I'm sold.
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Mar 29, 2020 02:21
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Apocalypse is another standout of the new status quo. He has a different perspective than anybody else, and keeps it from just being the Magneto/Xavier show at the top level. We still haven’t seen his first horsemen that have been being teased. And he looks drat good in a suit.
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Mar 29, 2020 02:39
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Open Marriage Night posted:Apocalypse is another standout of the new status quo. He has a different perspective than anybody else, and keeps it from just being the Magneto/Xavier show at the top level. We still haven’t seen his first horsemen that have been being teased. The diplomat doing his research and asking if he preferred to be called Abin Sur was a real  moment.
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Mar 29, 2020 03:33
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:The diplomat doing his research and asking if he preferred to be called Abin Sur was a real I think he has a big enough ego already without a green lantern ring thrown into the mix.
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Mar 29, 2020 03:42
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Man that's not the first and probably won't be the last time i keep loving up those two's names. En Sabah Nur. Got it.
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Mar 29, 2020 03:56
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Adder Moray posted:I mean, firstly, the back end of this is entirely bullshit. And secondly, you didn't actually address the question. What is the moral option here. Also, how the hell is it a "false" choice? It's a false choice in the same way someone who has a gun to their head is considered under duress. You're basically holding a massive piece of these peoples well being hostage behind some crazy rear end hazing ritual. And it's not both sides'ism to point out That they're talking about humans in the same way the Purifiers talk about mutants. Plus it ignores the fact that humans have been helping out the X-Men and opposing in both word and deed other bigoted humans constantly since forever.
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Mar 29, 2020 04:29
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galagazombie posted:It's a false choice in the same way someone who has a gun to their head is considered under duress.
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Mar 29, 2020 04:34
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If I had cool powers, and lost them, I’d probably get involved in some barbaric ritual to get them back faster. Having cool powers can be an addiction, and I’d die by the sword if it meant I came back healthy and powerful. Hell, these people probably don’t even remember dying. If Xavier backs you up before the crucible, you only remember walking into the pit, and then you wake up with your powers back. What a sacrifice. Guess I’m playing both sides on this one.
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Mar 29, 2020 05:30
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To be honest you'd have to do a hell of a lot to get me to accept resurrection. I'd be like Dr. Bones and the loving transporter. Don't tell me how indistinguishable the other version of me will be, if you can clone me that ain't me.
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Mar 29, 2020 05:38
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I love the difference of opinion. I’d be dying (haha) to know.
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Mar 29, 2020 05:53
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ImpAtom posted:To be honest you'd have to do a hell of a lot to get me to accept resurrection. I'd be like Dr. Bones and the loving transporter. Don't tell me how indistinguishable the other version of me will be, if you can clone me that ain't me.
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Mar 29, 2020 06:13
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https://twitter.com/mymonsterischic/status/1244084373747630080?s=20 Obviously it's not the most important priority in the world, but I do really hope the current crisis doesn't delay her X-Factor too much
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Mar 29, 2020 06:18
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Me too. I felt like she really got a ton of rich and strange material out of Age of X-Man and wound up writing one of the most moving titles of that year. The Krakoa status quo is already fuller, deeper, and weirder than the skeleton of Age of X-Man and I can't wait to see what she does-- one of my most anticipated books of 2020 (I hope) for sure.
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Mar 29, 2020 06:28
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How Wonderful! posted:Me too. I felt like she really got a ton of rich and strange material out of Age of X-Man and wound up writing one of the most moving titles of that year. The Krakoa status quo is already fuller, deeper, and weirder than the skeleton of Age of X-Man and I can't wait to see what she does-- one of my most anticipated books of 2020 (I hope) for sure. Leah Williams said on twitter I think that she planned on addressing what happens when a trans mutant wants to be resurrected in a body matching the gender they identify as, which is a wonderful way to tie the fantastical elements of Krakoa back into more explicitly real-world elements. Shame that comics are canceled, huh
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Mar 29, 2020 06:42
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galagazombie posted:
"Not all humans!" is not a good argument when- again- millions of mutants have been murdered, more have been generally oppressed, and all Captain America does is show up when The Red Skull wants to kill them and no other time. BrianWilly posted:You can hate the Crucible as much as you want but the fictional characters who agree to it are agreeing of their own fictional free will, with zero coercion or false pretenses. GIving someone one option- sword fighting an 8 foot tall blue immortal- to become whole again is absolutely not free will because- get this- they could develop another option that isn't as cruel! Because- get this!- they can do anything they want.
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Mar 29, 2020 14:20
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Rochallor posted:Leah Williams said on twitter I think that she planned on addressing what happens when a trans mutant wants to be resurrected in a body matching the gender they identify as, which is a wonderful way to tie the fantastical elements of Krakoa back into more explicitly real-world elements. FWIW Marvel hasn't officially cancelled comics yet, and their most recent public(ish) statement was to freelancers telling them it was business as usual.
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Mar 29, 2020 16:48
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I mean, comics can be made remotely just fine. If anything's not going to survive, it's comic shops. Comics can be distributed fine digitally, but any dedicated store that managed to last to the current decade in spite of the tiny margins and all the poo poo Diamond pulled over the years is now going under very soon.
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Mar 29, 2020 17:48
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danbanana posted:GIving someone one option- sword fighting an 8 foot tall blue immortal- to become whole again is absolutely not free will because- get this- they could develop another option that isn't as cruel! Because- get this!- they can do anything they want.  Establish, in any way, how Melody Guthrie was forced or coerced or tricked or even pressured into going through the Crucible. List the page where she wasn't given every opportunity to back down, where she had anything less than full and complete understanding of what she was getting into, where she was of unsound mind or somehow otherwise unable to decide if she wanted to go through with this of her own choice. Show the part where she was ambivalent, or undecided, or even regretful of her decision after the fact like she somehow didn't walk into the situation with her eyes wide open and end up getting exactly what she wanted and was promised. Is it possible they could do this another way? Maybe, and it still wouldn't have anything to do with the current given choice being somehow false. But on that note, sure, what's the other way to do this then? How do you get the depowered mutants their powers back without putting off the sixteen million Genoshans who are still dead?
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Mar 30, 2020 00:13
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I don’t know where to post this, but I just have to say it: I’ve been reading old X-Men and New Mutants comics, and Chris Claremont is extremely horny. I don’t know if there was an editorial policy at the time that horny was mandatory, but wow is it noticeable now.
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Mar 30, 2020 00:17
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Horny... how?
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Mar 30, 2020 00:23
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BrianWilly posted:Cool. Again, you guys can wax poetic for post after post about how crude and barbaric and just plain ol' mean the ritual is and it'll still have jackall to do with the participants not having free will. I used to be a Libertarian, too! It sucks and ignores almost all behavioral science so I stopped.
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Mar 30, 2020 00:31
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Sandwolf posted:Horny... how? So apparently someone hasn't read any of Claremont's X books.
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Mar 30, 2020 00:45
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:I don’t know where to post this, but I just have to say it: I’ve been reading old X-Men and New Mutants comics, and Chris Claremont is extremely horny. I don’t know if there was an editorial policy at the time that horny was mandatory, but wow is it noticeable now. If anything, he was forced to sneak a lot of it past his editors. As has recently been discussed, his original plan was that Mystique would've shapeshifted into a man in order to father Nightcrawler with Destiny. Dude was 20 years ahead of the American horniness curve. I am occasionally grateful that Claremont grew up reading Heinlein, though, where enthusiastic consent was typically the order of the day, rather than anything more questionable than that. (There's a funny story in Peter Sanderson's X-Men Companion interviews, where Claremont apparently has most of a spec script in a drawer somewhere about a crossover between John Norman's Gor novels and Iron Fist. A bunch of Gorean slave traders would have landed in New York and kidnapped Misty Knight and Colleen Wing. By the time Danny and Luke borrow a spaceship to go after them and bring them back, Misty and Colleen have overthrown civilization on Gor.)
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Mar 30, 2020 00:55
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:I don’t know where to post this, but I just have to say it: I’ve been reading old X-Men and New Mutants comics, and Chris Claremont is extremely horny. I don’t know if there was an editorial policy at the time that horny was mandatory, but wow is it noticeable now. And it feels like 75% of it is for Storm.
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Mar 30, 2020 01:10
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