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Oh poo poo!!!! #vamily https://twitter.com/LAbyNight/status/1243534292661092359
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Mar 27, 2020 18:28
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Mors Rattus posted:I feel like 2e Mage actually took the very clear authorial position of 'they are not the same thing at all' in the text itself. Sorry, 1e. As this was before Lost 2e was out so I went with the old ways.
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Mar 27, 2020 18:58
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Also word of god from Dave Brookshaw on multiple occasions in this very thread. Wait, waitwaitwait Ok so I want to propose some wild heresy: What if the realms invisible precede the Watchtowers? If, in the Time Before, the various realms invisible were present, and the Watchtowers were built to allow humans to understand and reach the Supernal despite the Abyss - they could have been cast on the model of the realms invisible, which humans already know and can understand. The undifferentiated Supernal World, we know, exists beyond the Paths and their various frameworks for understanding symbolic ur--reality. The various Supernal 'flavors' could therefore be understood, perhaps, as existing only after the Watchtowers, and if they were created with human comprehension in mind drawing on the symbolism of the realms invisible would be an effective way of making Spirit-walking shamans into Thyrsoi, for example. This is only a hypothesis, not my strong stance, but I think it adds a fascinating wrinkle to the question of which came first (especially since the Fallen World was shaped towards humanity as well, so the various Watchtowers might themselves have reinforced or humanized the realms invisible, a feedback loop that makes the Time(s) Before ever less knowable). E: I have no idea what my friend is planning with Arcadia/Arcadia, to be clear. They're definitely different but may be linked, and apparently the exploration of that connection (and probably fighting The Ruin) is going to be a major part of the game, so I'm excited. I'll report back, I guess, when that actually runs someday! Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Mar 27, 2020 |
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Mar 27, 2020 19:03
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What if the Watchtowers themselves as the sole means of interpreting and engaging with the Supernal Realms are part of the Lie, he said emerging from the back of a van in a billowing cloud of weed smoke
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Mar 27, 2020 19:59
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To be honest, I've never liked the Watchtowers and could totally see them being part of the lie. The idea that magic is a force for making your will manifest through a deeply personal expression and empowered by individual journey towards enlightenment but also shaman wizards go like this and all alchemists also talk to ghosts and whatever strikes me as antithetical to the larger themes of the game.
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Mar 27, 2020 20:57
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The five Watchtowers and the subtle/gross pairings specific to each one was like the first thing that caught my attention about Awakening and made me realize that we were due to get a really good game, way back when W:tF had recently come out and all we had of M:tA was some very vague previews. All alchemists do talk to ghosts because there's an intimate connection between the concept of "death" and the concept of "matter". You gotta learn the rules before you can break them to good effect.
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Mar 27, 2020 21:18
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Yeah, I like the Paths a lot. Awakening does a good job of both having real ‘traditions’ of magic that have weight, which are the Neoplatonic congeries of symbolism that are the paths, to a lesser extent the Orders, and the various Legacies and Supernal things - and having a real freedom of interpretation and flexibility for various symbolic approaches. There is a true thing out there, but we approach it through various frameworks; death and alchemy are closely connected on a metaphysical level, but you can be a Matter mage or an alchemist without being of the Moros path, or take it in new directions. The Uncrowned Kings are alchemists, but not all of them are necromancers, though being a necromancer and being an alchemist are similar in Supernal ways.
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Mar 27, 2020 21:46
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A realization I came to when posting about oWoD vs nWoD in another thread a little while ago was that you could encapsulate the primary difference between Ascension and Awakening in this way: the former is about ideology, while the latter is about theory. You really do have to be incredibly willful and creative and idiosyncratic to work magic in either case, but in Awakening those things aren't actually enough on their own - you need an actual, actionable handle on the truth. So, the fact that Mind and Space are related to each other, and are demonic, are cool and important details of the nWoD.
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Mar 27, 2020 21:51
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Demonic in a specific way, at that. The temptation and testing in fire are a matter of improvement rather than damnation, and that is important, because they’re ultimately about the ability to connect to others and be elevated even through pain. Hell is other people, and is a crucible for your improvement.
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Mar 27, 2020 22:01
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Also the microcosm of the mind is isomorphic to the macrocosm of the world and of society: As above, so below. And also distance is fake, emotional and personal distance is your real context and sympathy is more real than the Lie of physical separation. The Path of Scourging is a very cool set of symbolic truths.
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Mar 27, 2020 22:31
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Responses to a bunch of things!Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Drop everything, read the Horror Recognition Guide (linked in the OP I believe) and go nuts from there This is good advice for CoD in general but doesn't help me; I already have significant experience with the game and its potential and just need help catching up if that makes sense. I also don't need a lot of horror Neopie posted:No clue on the other ones, but slasher is great. Cool, I appreciate the insight! moths posted:Immortals is weird. It's basically non- vampires with alternate immortality schemes but who are also monstrous in other ways IIRC. It's very niche, and they're much more rare in the WoD than vampires. Oh, I have Chicago already. But we're playing in Toronto as our setting (it has its own gothic literature subgenre!) and I was curious about romance as an idea. Jhet posted:Chicago is perfectly serviceable as a setting. Even better if you’re not scared to just throw things out and make a mess of things. Because it's a solo game I'm pretty beholden to what my player wants to do, and he was very big on modern day. I did bring up the possibilities of other times, specifically thinking of New Wave Requiem, but he decided not to go for it. I will leave a trip report! I Am Just a Box posted:Chronicles of Darkness Second Edition Rulebook. No, I'm serious. In second edition, your best one-stop shop for miscellaneous supernatural stuff for your Vampire game that isn't vampires is the mortals rulebook, which now contains a system for designing miscellaneous Horrors. To make a sorcerer you might need to supplement their Dread Powers with Supernatural Merits (also in the mortals rulebook) or borrowed blood sorcery rituals or something, but Horrors are a good base system. Sweet, that advice about creating miscellaneous horrors is really helpful. I was looking at the Hunter books but they actually seem to point you back towards the monster-specific lines. Thanks everyone!
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Mar 27, 2020 23:28
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Ferrinus posted:the primary difference between Ascension and Awakening in this way: the former is about ideology, while the latter is about theory. I really like the concept of what this means, and it’s perfect for describing the games. Theory is a big part of just about every session for us, and the word choice just really nails it.
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Mar 27, 2020 23:52
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I'm thinking of trashing the entire experience system from both editions and replacing it with something like the following. Because this is a solo game played over Discord posts, I don't really have sessions to hang a lot of the experience framework off of. I don't want to worry about the entire mechanics of conditions and tilts from 2e, so using that for Beats is also out. I'm thinking of using the multiplicative costs from 1e, and applying a rule I generally use for sandbox games in other systems, so it would look like this. Experience: -When you fulfill an Aspiration, gain 1 Experience. Replace the Aspiration at your next Moment of Respite. [replaces aspiration beats] -When you risk your Integrity or Humanity, gain 1 Experience. You can only gain experience from this once until your next Moment of Respite. [replaces breaking points, still need to nail down exactly which systems I'm using] -When you take an action at great risk that reflects your Virtue, Vice, Mask, or Dirge, gain 1 experience. You can only gain experience from this once until your next Moment of Respite. [replaces heroism from 1e] -When you learn something significant about the World of Darkness, gain 1 experience. You can only gain experience from this once until your next Moment of Respite. [learning curve from 1e] -When you advance a Relationship/Touchstone in a significant way, gain 1 experience. You can only gain experience from this once until your next Moment of Respite. [touchstones + all the various relationship mechanics] -When you fail a roll, you may instead choose to make it a dramatic failure and gain 1 experience. You can only gain experience from this once until your next Moment of Respite. [dramatic failure Beat] Skill Experience: -When you get an exceptional success on a Skill roll, mark one experience for that Skill. That experience may only be spent on that Skill. [Why I Hate Experience Points From Mirrors] Moment of Respite: A Moment of Respite is a rest period of general safety. It can be hiding from the sunlight in a hidden space; feeding on a helpless victim with trusted backup; or any other moment that allows your character to significantly recharge and refocus themselves towards further challenges. A Moment of Respite is declared by the Storyteller, but can be suggested by a player. Spending Experience: Spending Experience needs to be done when it is appropriate for the story. This is frequently, but not always, a Moment of Respite. For example, a harrowing blood sorcery experience can provide knowledge of new rituals; a calculated feeding program can increase Blood Potency; time spent training at the range can increase Firearms. Prioritizing training or increasing a particular statistic is not a suitable Aspiration; instead, it provides an opportunity to spend experience on that statistic, frequently at a discount. Notes: -After doing some more talking with my player, they've got a really crackerjack idea for the prelude/Embrace section, so we'll be playing around with that for awhile before we even get to actual Vampire things. They'll be starting off just as a mortal, and then applying the vampire template later. Sanctity of Merits is something I'll be using, so I fully expect some of their Merits to get trashed and replaced after Embrace; conversely they will be starting with just basic inbuilt clan allowances of Disciplines and so on, buying any first dot of say Theban Sorcery manually with Experience, and all that. -Also because they're solo, being a generalist is highly encouraged; I therefore don't need to worry about the specialist versus generalist dilemma either in group balance or in terms of their own expenditures. Having numbers start off really easy to grab and then getting harder is exactly the right curve I want. -This is also going to turbocharge their experience gain in general, which is nice for getting them up to speed and making the limited time of what's essentially a play by post game more valuable. Thoughts, ideas, comments?
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Mar 28, 2020 16:02
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I'd play that. You already know that's going to give them plenty of XP, so as long as you're fine with that use it. The only one that might run into trouble maybe is the skill xp from exceptional successes, but maybe that's just because I'm inundated with exceptional successes because mages. Probably not a problem for vampires.
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Mar 28, 2020 16:31
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Careful with re-instating multiplicative costs while keeping dot-based chargen, because it suddenly means there are more or less XP-optimal ways to distribute your starting stats. For instance, should I start with Athletics 1 Brawl 2, or Athletics 0 Brawl 3? Well, if each dot of a skill costs XP proportionate to the new rating, and I eventually want 3/3, I'd be a fool not to pick the 0/3 start since it'll cost me 1X + 2X + 3X (getting Athletics to 1, then to 2, then to 3) to reach instead of costing me 2X + 3X (getting athletics to 2, then 3) + 3X (getting brawl to 3). When my group played 1E we used XP-based chargen for this reason - it's a little more fiddly and slow to start but it gives you more options in the long run. You could, instead, take a page out of V5's book and just offer starting dot arrays, like choices of "focused" vs "branched out" vs "generalist" stat and skill arrays that players can then build off of with XP in gameplay.
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Mar 28, 2020 17:08
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Ferrinus posted:Careful with re-instating multiplicative costs while keeping dot-based chargen, because it suddenly means there are more or less XP-optimal ways to distribute your starting stats. This is what I meant by a solo game making that play out differently. Per Requiem Chronicler's Guide p.140 it's a really really bad idea to specialize like that because you have no one else to rely on; you only have yourself to be able to make any given roll in any given situation, so it's in your best interests to take a more general spread. I'm aware of the gap, but there's enough pressure from other parts of the setup to make the optimal less optimal, if that makes sense.
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Mar 28, 2020 17:18
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Arivia posted:This is what I meant by a solo game making that play out differently. Per Requiem Chronicler's Guide p.140 it's a really really bad idea to specialize like that because you have no one else to rely on; you only have yourself to be able to make any given roll in any given situation, so it's in your best interests to take a more general spread. I'm aware of the gap, but there's enough pressure from other parts of the setup to make the optimal less optimal, if that makes sense. Oh yeah, I missed that part about multiplicative costs. That would make it very slow in comparison to the speed of gain I was thinking. We use a flat XP/AXP gain system (1 each per session) in my awakening 2e game now and that's hit the balance right for the flat costs. Going multiplicative would really throw on the brakes in terms of character advancement in any sort of mechanical variety to back up the story. Definitely do what you're comfortable with doing, but a solo campaign sounds like a really good time to try out some of the stronger powers just because the powers are there, so why not get to play with them? Way easier to balance with only one character too.
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Mar 28, 2020 18:28
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Arivia posted:This is what I meant by a solo game making that play out differently. Per Requiem Chronicler's Guide p.140 it's a really really bad idea to specialize like that because you have no one else to rely on; you only have yourself to be able to make any given roll in any given situation, so it's in your best interests to take a more general spread. I'm aware of the gap, but there's enough pressure from other parts of the setup to make the optimal less optimal, if that makes sense. I actually don't buy that general spreads are better than specialized spreads in the first place, especially when we're talking about two or three-die differences being made when you're choosing whether to generalize or specialize within an already-specialized category (eg "mental skills"), and being in a solo game might make it easier rather than harder to get away with a total deficiency when it comes to computers or knives or whatever because... what, are you going to run into a locked door you can't pick and that's it, that's the end of the game, thanks for playing? And scaling costs make it very, very easy to develop basic competence in fields in which you start out totally ignorant, so even if it is the case that being a jack of all trades is crucially important any character's going to rapidly become a jack of all trades as the need arises.
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Mar 28, 2020 19:10
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I'm not sure there's all that much advantage to going back to scaling XP costs but then also ramping up XP gain. Sure it'll slow down higher level advancement a bit, but you already outlined plenty of other reasons why they should want to generalize anyway. Meanwhile, getting any cool top-tier stuff they want just takes longer waiting on a metagame meter to build up, which tends not to be fun even if you happen to not hate it. Also while it's more prominent in Skill and Attribute values, the fourth and fifth dots of a Discipline rarely feel like they're worth an additional couple dozen XP compared to the first through third, and the third dot is almost never worth a dozen more than the first. If going hard into Dominate or maxing Athletics somehow is a mistake, I say let your player make that mistake, and make it not so onerous to fix afterwards. The ultimate message scaling XP sends is "earn your fun", which sucks.
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Mar 28, 2020 19:16
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With Disciplines, your most useful and effective dots are absolutely dots 1 and 2, yeah.
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Mar 28, 2020 20:34
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I actually do like scaling XP costs for the character development incentives they produce and the way V5 managed to split the difference between quick chargen and scaling growth is probably my single favorite thing about the new edition (or it would be if they hadn't then gone and hosed it up right at the end). It is true that the really broad benefits that tend to come with even your first and second dots in Requiem 2E make scaling costs on disciplines feel a little less important, although I still like their effect on the growth of attributes and skills.
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Mar 28, 2020 21:08
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Anyone up for playing Vampire the Dark Ages V20 PbP over Discord during PST? I need two more players at least.
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Mar 29, 2020 00:32
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Finally reading Signs of Sorcery, and it's a blast. I already registered my mild complaints in the F&F thread, and generally the book's great - but what I'm curious is, does anyone have an idea for the Peirasmon Ministry? It's unique to The Ruin, Exarch of Fate, and I couldn't find any further canonical details. The Kyrian Ministry which is shared by the Prophet and the Ruin is the Ministry of Inescapable Lack of Social Mobility, which is awful, but that means the Peirasmon Ministry needs an approach that doesn't overlap with that. Obviously if any devs are about, I'm curious about the canon account, but since The Ruin could be important to a friend's game and she's looking through the canon for bits to use, I'd love to know if anyone has ideas about what to attach to that name.
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Mar 29, 2020 01:10
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Helical Nightmares posted:Anyone up for playing Vampire the Dark Ages V20 PbP over Discord during PST? I need two more players at least. I might be, but I'm not the most rustworthy for these kind of things. Also how does the pbp work in this case?
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Mar 29, 2020 01:14
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Joe Slowboat posted:Finally reading Signs of Sorcery, and it's a blast. I already registered my mild complaints in the F&F thread, and generally the book's great - but what I'm curious is, does anyone have an idea for the Peirasmon Ministry? It's unique to The Ruin, Exarch of Fate, and I couldn't find any further canonical details. The Kyrian Ministry which is shared by the Prophet and the Ruin is the Ministry of Inescapable Lack of Social Mobility, which is awful, but that means the Peirasmon Ministry needs an approach that doesn't overlap with that. They specialise in taking people Sleepers regard as role-models and tempting them to self-destruction. The Ruin's the Exarch of Inevitable Shittiness Leading to Apathy, so they help people who seem to be resisting that along as examples. They're one of the Minor Ministries who I figured would have Servitors other than the four Majors, too - probably some kind of succubus/incubus. Made out of people, like all Servitors. Dave Brookshaw fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Mar 29, 2020 |
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Mar 29, 2020 01:32
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Fate would've been my pick for 'predestination for everyone!! IT SUCKS!!!' but per Nameless and Accursed that's Time, instead.
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Mar 29, 2020 01:40
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Mors Rattus posted:Fate would've been my pick for 'predestination for everyone!! IT SUCKS!!!' but per Nameless and Accursed that's Time, instead. Well, Fate is ‘choice’ while time is... time, so that fits IMO. The Prophet and Ruin are maybe the most viscerally hateable Path pair of the Exarchs, and there is some extremely stiff competition in that category. Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Mar 29, 2020 |
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Mar 29, 2020 02:02
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MonsieurChoc posted:I might be, but I'm not the most rustworthy for these kind of things. Also how does the pbp work in this case? PbP is just text over discord. Since you don't have PMs, come chat here.
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Mar 29, 2020 03:50
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I'll try to make time to go back through the Contagion Chronicles to post my requisite million words on it, but Rand's assessment is pretty much the same as mine. Here are the central problems: The Contagion is basically never defined. The book doesn't even start trying to address the question until two or three chapters in, which is a problem when those previous chapters are all about organizations wholly defined by their response to the Contagion and the powers they use by harnessing the Contagion. There is never anything as simple as a sentence that attempts to sum up what the Contagion is or what it does. It's not clearly stated, but if you sift through you find the suggestion of where it comes from, which seems to be that it is what results when God-Machine infrastructure malfunctions or breaks. The book repeatedly brings up the idea of the God-Machine's infrastructure, despite not seeming to understand what infrastructure is, specifically that infrastructure always takes the form of material mechanisms of some kind. Much of the "infrastructure" that would be involved in this book is so ill-defined as to be ethereal and bodiless, as if the laws of physics themselves counted as infrastructure. Ultimately, the only common factor shared by most manifestations of the Contagion are they do something weird with some kind of contagious component. Well, duh. The "factions," divided into Sworn and False groups, embody the Contagion Chronicle's answer to the question of how to make crossover play work with monsters based around different themes, interests, and conflicts. The answer is: ignore them. The factions treat different character types as essentially interchangeable aside from different bonus effects for using that faction's Vector power. In the Contagion Chronicle, being a metamorphic Victorian occultist vampire or a trash-wizard Sin-Eater bound to a jinn of ashen death is really just secondary flavor. You're an Operative of Zero Hour or an Iconoclast of the Ship of Theseus. This book's splats are what matters and your home game's stuff is just a hat you wear. The Storytelling chapter has little advice on how to make characters from different gamelines cohere thematically, spending more time on how each gameline relates to the central Contagion that overrides everything else. When it does have advice, it is of the caliber of "Primordial Beasts are meant for crossover, so consider centering the group around their Beast friends!" Yes, expect a lot of passages in this book that mention Beasts in a context that assumes you're okay with hanging out with them. The Sworn and False are your Camarilla-Sabbat style "they're actually all awful villains but one group is the protagonists by default because the other is even worse." What separates them is ill-defined. Supposedly the Sworn fight the Contagion and seek a cure while the False accept it as a route to power. There are only three False factions presented, and one of them is defined by being so poo poo-terrified of the Contagion that whenever they find an outbreak they do everything they can to metaphorically nuke it from orbit so it doesn't spread. On the other hand, one of the Sworn factions is strongly suggested later in the book to be wholly infected and embracing a Contagion of obsession with mystery.
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Mar 29, 2020 04:46
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I Am Just a Box posted:a Contagion of obsession with mystery. devs finally confirm mages are a disease
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Mar 29, 2020 04:57
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And now for something completely different: Scion 2E. They took out Izanami and Izanagi as divine parents in the 2E book, which is reasonable, but what Purviews and Callings do you think you'd give them if you were adapting old characters/game materials from Scion 1E? For Purviews both would presumably have Fertility, and perhaps Health. I am unsure on the third beyond that Darkness would also make sense for Izanami. Callings I'm at sea for. Even Liminal doesn't quite seem to make sense for Izanami. I gather dimly that they may be getting adapted as primordials (or titans in Izanami's case) in some upcoming book, too.
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Mar 29, 2020 12:19
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I Am Just a Box posted:On the other hand, one of the Sworn factions is strongly suggested later in the book to be wholly infected and embracing a Contagion of obsession with mystery. Ah poo poo. Mage Chat is spreading into the game itself, it seems.  Also, the contagion book sounds really...I don't know, bad? The idea that the God Machine does have positive uses (IE: Keeping the status quo in the setting from deteriorating by maintaining the integrity of reality so it doesn't go bonkers and mutate everything.) is a good one that adds a bit of complexity of what to do with it. But it appears that the person that wrote the contagion thinks it's all just metaphysical stuff? That seems...Hard to interact with in a truly satisfying way if you aren't a mage or similarly powered splat. Also, the reasoning behind a Camarilla/Sabbat type divide where they're actually both assholes doomed to failure is a bit played out at this point. We have the OWoD back. Does it need to be that needlessly grimdark? That was part of what made people roll their eyes at Swedish Dracula too. Edit: I do find the implications that the contagion is basically a breakdown of reality similar to the Wyld infestations from Exalted to be amusing, though. Why are Beast's still being pushed as the ultimate crossover line however? Was that part just written before everyone noticed how bad Beast is? Anyone familiar with abusers and their tactics are only going to want them as the center of a crossover if everyone's wanting to team up to kick their rear end. And that assumes they're okay with horrible abuse elementals taking part in their game. Which I imagine most people are not okay with. Archonex fucked around with this message at 13:29 on Mar 29, 2020 |
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Mar 29, 2020 12:56
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Ferrinus posted:I actually don't buy that general spreads are better than specialized spreads in the first place, especially when we're talking about two or three-die differences being made when you're choosing whether to generalize or specialize within an already-specialized category (eg "mental skills"), and being in a solo game might make it easier rather than harder to get away with a total deficiency when it comes to computers or knives or whatever because... what, are you going to run into a locked door you can't pick and that's it, that's the end of the game, thanks for playing? And scaling costs make it very, very easy to develop basic competence in fields in which you start out totally ignorant, so even if it is the case that being a jack of all trades is crucially important any character's going to rapidly become a jack of all trades as the need arises. Talked to my player, settled on x1 x1 x2 x2 x3 for multiplier. That gives us a bit higher costs for the high dots without it being too crazy.
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Mar 29, 2020 17:45
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That still makes starting with, say, 2/2/2 instead of 3/1/2 in your tertiary attribute category a flat loss unless you expect to never want to bump those up again! (Though it IS better than the default because it means you don't get incredible value by going 1/1/4) Edit: To be a bit more helpful, here's the 1E XP-based chargen scheme my group's always used: ATTRIBUTES: 70xp in your primary category, 55xp in your secondary category, 45xp in your tertiary category. If you're a vampire, take 25 bonus XP but your clan's favored attributes can't both be 1. (We also let people assign by power/finesse/resistance instead of physical/mental/social if they wanted, just for more flexibility). SKILLS: 78/48/30xp MERITS: 32xp DISCPLINES: 30xp In all cases, you can just save leftover XP in that category and use it in said category later on. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Mar 29, 2020 |
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Mar 29, 2020 19:17
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Speaking of Supernal Arcadia/Changeling Arcadia: Fallen reflections of the Supernal Realms So I had an idea partially inspired by the Supernal Arcadia/Changeling Arcadia divide. Each of the five known Supernal Realms has a fallen reflection. The fallen reflection of Stygia is the Underworld. The fallen reflection of the Primal Wild is the Hisil/Shadow. The fallen reflection of Pandemonium is the Lower Depths. The fallen reflection of (Supernal) Arcadia is the Arcadia of Changeling/the Hedge obviously. The main sticking point is the Aether. I considered the Astral as the Aether's fallen reflection. But if that was the case it seems kinda odd that the path with the easiest access to the Astral (Mastigos) would be different then the path associated with the Aether (Obrimos), and am currently just thinking of the Astral as the "road" (or perhaps...ladder?) to the Supernal (or at least was until the Abyss). That the Lower Depths are often considered to be as separated from the Fallen World as the Fallen World is separated from the Supernal is also a bit of a flaw in the theory, but if I'm ST-ing I can pretty easily wave that bit away.
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Apr 1, 2020 13:57
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hangedman1984 posted:Speaking of Supernal Arcadia/Changeling Arcadia: Also, the Hedge is a layer of the Astral. Albeit one that mages breeze past (it's the Astral Barrier). While future writers and developers are, of course, liable to make their own choices, a lot of care and attention over the last 15 years has gone into making sure the nWoD's cosmology doesn't line up neatly like this. Because we're monsters.
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Apr 1, 2020 14:11
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The Lower Depths aren't one place, and in fact are only related to each other insofar as Mages group them together for in-universe taxonomical reasons. The Underworld itself is arguably a Lower Depth that lacks Life. The Astral is also far more closely related to Mind / Space than to Prime / Forces. A more productive line of inquiry might be looking into Qashmallim, Prometheans, and the origins of human souls, as that's far more resonant. Honestly I subscribe to a similar theory, but you're trying too hard to make things fit. Dave Brookshaw posted:Also, the Hedge is a layer of the Astral. Albeit one that mages breeze past (it's the Astral Barrier). You are monsters if you're doing it for that reason. If there's an internally consistent and discoverable order to it that just happens to produce something slightly more complicated than the classical Greek elements plus one, that's fine and even admirable. Anyways on a note related to both these things, something I think you said a while ago was that the Supernal doesn't compel the existence of things in the Fallen world, but it provides the vocabulary; that is, it's counterproductive to talk about "the Fallen reflection of Arcadia" but at the same time Changeling's Arcadia is obviously a giant pulsing knot of Time and Fate. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Apr 1, 2020 |
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Apr 1, 2020 14:17
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Yes, but also Mind, often more importantly than Time. Messing with the Hedge is usually Mind and Fate, for example.
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Apr 1, 2020 14:28
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The Astral is also far more closely related to Mind / Space than to Prime / Forces. A more productive line of inquiry might be looking into Qashmallim, Prometheans, and the origins of human souls, as that's far more resonant. Yeah, thats why I backed off from the Astral being the fallen reflection of the Aether. I did once have a theory relating to the God-Machine and the..what do the call it in Promethean, Principle I think? When Reality "broke" and the Abyss seperated the Fallen from the Supernal, it also broke "God", with the God-Machine being the fallen half, running mindless processes with little rhyme or reason, and the Principle being the Supernal half.
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Apr 1, 2020 14:40
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G-d is inherently evil, and the Fall was intentionally induced in order to allow the creation of the God Machine, which is the powers of G-d applied to a process which directly manifests themselves in the mortal realm, in order to better torture each individual soul. Essentially the only correct theologist was Jakob Bohme, but instead of the Fall being designed to move creation out of innocense into a more perfect self-understanding, it was done to perfect torment. These Fallen echos serve only to torment the most ambitious mortals with the tantalizing promise of escape.
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Apr 1, 2020 14:57
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