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V. Illych L. posted:he wants to use social science and nudge theory to totally dominate the population of the UK you really are a loving idiot
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Apr 4, 2020 11:17
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Barry Foster posted:Giving up on humanity makes all of this a lot less painful, hth giving up is not an option, unfortunately, since the entire world is at stake
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Apr 4, 2020 11:20
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V. Illych L. posted:giving up is not an option, unfortunately, since the entire world is at stake The entire world is already hosed. It's already lost. Localism and direct action are the only options, IMO. I genuinely think we're way past the 'cure' phase. Now we're in global palliative care. Which is not a reason to give up entirely, just a reason to give up on the idea that the world can still be changed
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Apr 4, 2020 11:25
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Barry Foster posted:The entire world is already hosed. It's already lost. Localism and direct action are the only options, IMO. I genuinely think we're way past the 'cure' phase. Now we're in global palliative care. the world is changing as we speak - huge parts of the world are in lockdown and the global economy is melting down in a big way, and they're trying to keep it from collapsing utterly by stuffing it with public money. the price of oil has gone down precipitously, fuelling more instability. the old order is seriously dying and conditions for the left are better than they've been since the fall of the soviet bloc, but we've got to keep our courage
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Apr 4, 2020 11:30
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V. Illych L. posted:the world is changing as we speak - huge parts of the world are in lockdown and the global economy is melting down in a big way, and they're trying to keep it from collapsing utterly by stuffing it with public money. the price of oil has gone down precipitously, fuelling more instability. isn't this guy not even from the UK lol?
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Apr 4, 2020 11:32
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oliwan posted:isn't this guy not even from the UK lol? i'm not, i'm norwegian as stated in my av
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Apr 4, 2020 11:32
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V. Illych L. posted:i'm not, i'm norwegian as stated in my av lol
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Apr 4, 2020 11:34
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I'm just a passive observer but if no one cares about your posts in the UK thread, in fact most absolutely hate you in the UK thread because your posts are really dumb, and you are not even from the UK... you should probably not post in the UK thread. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 4, 2020 11:36
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ok dude
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Apr 4, 2020 11:36
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I'm british and I welcome any and all posters in our thread. The worst the better, in fact. As you may be aware, we Brits love voting for huge amount of poo poo to be funneled down our throats. We voted for pain, and we shall get it.
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Apr 4, 2020 11:38
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V. Illych L. posted:the world is changing as we speak - huge parts of the world are in lockdown and the global economy is melting down in a big way, and they're trying to keep it from collapsing utterly by stuffing it with public money. the price of oil has gone down precipitously, fuelling more instability. If you don't think the only outcome of this is fascism and/or some sort of hideous corporate hellworld (more than even now, lol), with a battered left doing their best around the edges to ensure just a few fewer people starve or live lives barely worth living, then I have an expensive garden bridge to sell you
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Apr 4, 2020 11:39
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Barry Foster posted:If you don't think the only outcome of this is fascism and/or some sort of hideous corporate hellworld (more than even now, lol), with a battered left doing their best around the edges to ensure just a few fewer people starve or live lives barely worth living, then I have an expensive garden bridge to sell you we'll see. i do agree that it's important to build local organisations and civil society groups with a clear ideology, but politics as large is about to cone back in a big way imo
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Apr 4, 2020 11:41
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oliwan posted:I'm just a passive observer but if no one cares about your posts in the UK thread, in fact most absolutely hate you in the UK thread because your posts are really dumb, and you are not even from the UK... you should probably not post in the UK thread. nah, he's not welcome in the UKMT in mainline D&D because he said Boris Johnson allegedly beating his girlfriend wasn't that bad actually. Their opinions were only marginally less dogshit than that
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Apr 4, 2020 11:51
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oliwan posted:I'm just a passive observer but if no one cares about your posts in the UK thread, in fact most absolutely hate you in the UK thread because your posts are really dumb, and you are not even from the UK... you should probably not post in the UK thread. JFC. Pot meet kettle.
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Apr 4, 2020 11:51
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Barry Foster posted:If you don't think the only outcome of this is fascism and/or some sort of hideous corporate hellworld (more than even now, lol), with a battered left doing their best around the edges to ensure just a few fewer people starve or live lives barely worth living, then I have an expensive garden bridge to sell you I get it's tough but I don't think this is a very helpful attitude tbh I've been really pleased by the community response i've been seeing and all the rent strikes and such that are being organised We're in unpredictable times so saying for certain that everything is going to be total poo poo is just as wrong as saying everything is fine
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Apr 4, 2020 12:07
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https://tribunemag.co.uk/2020/04/socialists-stay-in-the-labour-party?fbclid=IwAR3_3_j_rAP44IMLXg2ym7WPjNta7xPFRI7xF9RbFZvdWL-qpcHYgcXssZA this op ed in tribune makes a good point imo - as socialists, foregoing party politics is probably a mistake and the left still has a good foothold in the party. abandoning it in adversity is probably a bad decision
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Apr 4, 2020 12:10
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Trash article, gently caress electoralism.
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Apr 4, 2020 12:14
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forkboy84 posted:Trash article, gently caress electoralism.
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Apr 4, 2020 12:23
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It's wrong to take our foot off the rake, we need to stomp harder next time
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Apr 4, 2020 12:24
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Why Corbyn never purged his enemies will be a question for the ages. I doubt the reason is as bad as Sanders having feelings of friendship with people who shanked him like Joe Biden. sorry for americanisms
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Apr 4, 2020 12:24
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All the New Left Media people are pleading that people stay in Labour because 1) they care primarily about the Labour Party not labour as a class and 2) their personal careers depend on it
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Apr 4, 2020 12:25
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Nonsense posted:Why Corbyn never purged his enemies will be a question for the ages. part of it is probably that it's harder to purge people from the party, part that he didn't want to set a precedent for when the right inevitably got in and part that he genuinely believes in the big tent thing, imo
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Apr 4, 2020 12:25
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John Charity Spring posted:All the New Left Media people are pleading that people stay in Labour because 1) they care primarily about the Labour Party not labour as a class and 2) their personal careers depend on it it's hard for me to see how workers can be effectively represented without a parliamentary presence of some sort, and the party does seem like the most likely vehicle for that. certainly earlier efforts like TUSC and Respect haven't ended very well
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Apr 4, 2020 12:29
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Valko posted:JFC. Pot meet kettle. lol
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Apr 4, 2020 12:31
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Nonsense posted:Why Corbyn never purged his enemies will be a question for the ages. I doubt the reason is as bad as Sanders having feelings of friendship with people who shanked him like Joe Biden. sorry for americanisms He's too nice. Jezza was a fundamentally decent man who realised far too late in his life that most MPs are not good people. He asked Liz Kendall to be in his Shadow Cabinet for fucksake. There was also a chronic lack of a ruthless edge. If he wasn't that guy he'd never have won in 2015 but in the end it counted against us because of a refusal to take action to purge the right. The right will not hesitate to purge the left
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Apr 4, 2020 12:47
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https://twitter.com/gsjosan/status/1246393113083510785?s=20 The Great Purges
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Apr 4, 2020 12:52
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V. Illych L. posted:he wants to use social science and nudge theory to totally dominate the population of the UK At this point I would say focus on the communal level and start supporting a small n nationalist movement for a SocialistEngland after Britain and after the monarchy. Because there is really no reason to keep the UK going.
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Apr 4, 2020 13:10
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John Charity Spring posted:All the New Left Media people are pleading that people stay in Labour because 1) they care primarily about the Labour Party not labour as a class and 2) their personal careers depend on it The body politic is filled with parasites, you can't beat the conservatives but you can starve the parasites. I'll say upfront that I'm american and after 2020 it will be time to start the process of killing the Democratic party.
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Apr 4, 2020 13:10
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Crowsbeak posted:At this point I would say focus on the communal level and start supporting a small n nationalist movement for a SocialistEngland after Britain and after the monarchy. Because there is really no reason to keep the UK going. no2EU tried something like this and went nowhere. i don't think this is a viable option - the right is always going to be more credibly patriotic
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Apr 4, 2020 13:15
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Dmitri-9 posted:The body politic is filled with parasites, you can't beat the conservatives but you can starve the parasites. I'll say upfront that I'm american and after 2020 it will be time to start the process of killing the Democratic party. This. The Democrats must be killed for the left to advance in the USA. Really I hate to say it but effectively the left has to come to a realization that the alliance with liberalism in the west was an aberration not something that actually is a natural thing for socialism and that in the long run it allowed for movements meant to be for the workers to become vehicles for those who act as the agents of the petit bourgeois and the bourgeois. The PMC. There needs now to be a violent break from liberalism. Frankly permanently. Especially now as liberalism is in a tailspin. If that requires having to form new organizations and spending five to ten years rebuilding. Then that is what is required. Also for those who talk of climate change. Is it happening? Yes? Is trying to keep things together with the ideological bedfellows of the system that is it’s main cause ever going to stop it? No. It can only be stopped by Socialism and a Socialism where the liberal and those whose nature is liberalism has no place at all.
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Apr 4, 2020 13:19
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V. Illych L. posted:it's hard for me to see how workers can be effectively represented without a parliamentary presence of some sort, and the party does seem like the most likely vehicle for that. certainly earlier efforts like TUSC and Respect haven't ended very well Alright Bernstein, feel free to list all the times that socialism was achieved via electoralism
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Apr 4, 2020 13:25
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ugh, total melt victory
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Apr 4, 2020 13:25
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i am not comfortable with many of the implications of that. it's going to mean a much increased tolerance of bigotry (not just what amounts to bad manners but actual chauvinist behaviour) and surrendering the great deal of progress made by the left in terms of sexual liberty and internationalism plus, it's not politically viable. the mass of industrial workers who could be effectively mobilised to make such a strategy work hasn't existed in the west for decades. the left needs the urban middle class, and they're deeply preoccupied by small-l liberalism.
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Apr 4, 2020 13:27
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forkboy84 posted:Alright Bernstein, feel free to list all the times that socialism was achieved via electoralism the parliamentary road to socialism probably isn't viable, but even the bolsheviks participated in electoral politics more flawed than what we're seeing in the west today
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Apr 4, 2020 13:29
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V. Illych L. posted:i am not comfortable with many of the implications of that. it's going to mean a much increased tolerance of bigotry (not just what amounts to bad manners but actual chauvinist behaviour) and surrendering the great deal of progress made by the left in terms of sexual liberty and internationalism The urban middle class are the ones who ensure its failure. They are the enemy. I mean what progress can a socialist really count on if it means that you have had the effective destruction of workers protections and the near destruction of the social safety net. If your liberty that was won can I not be effectively enjoyed by the ten percent with means is it even a liberty that was worth fighting for? Socialists frankly should measure progress if the common people and by that I mean those who work the jobs cleaning the trash. Those who pick the vegetables . Those who take care of the elderly and clean medical waste. Can enjoy their lives at all or exist in something that makes peasent life look better by comparison. If it’s the latter. Then you may as well just let actual reactionaries have the future because at least going back to some sort of bullshit past is preferable to the present. Also. By acting now frankly you set yourself up for the future after liberalism. You can say the right has alway “beaten you” because you were still clasping to liberalism. If you can sever those ties and work from the ground. You have a chance. Also the right will definitely cling to liberalism. You think the stories are going to go one nation after this is over. Boris has always talked a good game of One Nation but every time he does he just doubles down on Thatcherite insanity. And those that surround him are also such liberal trash. Thatcherism still owns the Tories and therefore liberalism still owns them. Let them die with the shattered corpse of that dying ideology while you let socialism in The British Isle be the articulation of a small n nation a nation for all that also stands up to Globalist forces that seek to subordinate it. Crowsbeak has issued a correction as of 13:51 on Apr 4, 2020 |
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Apr 4, 2020 13:39
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there's no viable political entity that can be composed entirely of the working class, partially because that class is largely disenfranchised through the extensive use of migrant labour and partially because productivity per work-hour in competitive western industries is sky high, leading to a much smaller base of easily organised workers which is further splintered by canny conservative policy making ordinary people homeowners for cheap in the eighties with the coming mass unemployment many things will likely change, though - a conservative majority is going to accept much lower productivity if it means getting labour costs down even further. the steadily increasing housing prices which has driven conservative support since thatcher is reaching the limits of sustainability and a great many people are going to have a rude awakening to the state of the social safety net, especially the urban middle classes. corbynism has clear weaknesses, but at the present i think it's the only viable option for a real mass party on the left
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Apr 4, 2020 13:49
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tote up a bags posted:We voted for pain, and we shall get it. Nothing wrong with a lovely crusty baguette.
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Apr 4, 2020 13:52
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V. Illych L. posted:there's no viable political entity that can be composed entirely of the working class, partially because that class is largely disenfranchised through the extensive use of migrant labour and partially because productivity per work-hour in competitive western industries is sky high, leading to a much smaller base of easily organised workers which is further splintered by canny conservative policy making ordinary people homeowners for cheap in the eighties Those Urban Middle Classes were certainly not enough to win . And letting them being the guiding force is a recipe for disaster. It was them. Not the common workers who foisted the people’s vote on Corbyn. It was them who turned Labour into a vehicle for social policy over workers policy. It also was them that Blairism came from. They are fair weather friends and allowing Socialism anywhere to be defined by those who in their heart of hearts want to become the new bourgeois is a recipe for failure. The future of the left must be a rebuilding industry, and a future without London guiding every aspect of the life of Britain it’s cornerstone. Note the former is being allowed to be colored by the Tories for them to give out contracts that are never fufilled. Crowsbeak has issued a correction as of 13:57 on Apr 4, 2020 |
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Apr 4, 2020 13:54
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but what you're left with there is just a wholesale rejection of electoralism under the present circumstances, which is a coherent position but not one which is sound imo for previously mentioned reasons
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Apr 4, 2020 13:59
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V. Illych L. posted:but what you're left with there is just a wholesale rejection of electoralism under the present circumstances, which is a coherent position but not one which is sound imo for previously mentioned reasons Frankly. It may be best at the least to prepare for something after electoralism because your society is starting to look like USSR in the eighties. Do you want a Putin in fifteen to twenty years directing England or even a Britain. You need to have measures prepared for when the collapse comes you can seize power.
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Apr 4, 2020 14:06
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