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NikkolasKing posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51az0LDdnvE FF X-2 had a pretty erotic massage scene I remember. It might just have been the dub but the girl Yuna's massaging get real into it.
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Apr 8, 2020 00:10
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Kawalimus posted:No its not just as real because theyre doing it specifically the way they are so the risks theyre taking with the story arent really risks. Its cowardly. Make a remake and do those things. Retell the story! You can't hurt the original game because its marinated in our consciousness for long enough. And if its a badly received effort then so be it. Look how many superman movies there are. the fact that it's so ingrained in all our subconcious and still is easily accessible is exactly why they didn't just do the same thing again and why they shouldn't have. Even If they had done just a straight attempt to do a 1:1 remake it would have been haunted by the players' expectations and previous knowledge. the writers and design team knew this and decide to do somethign with it instead of doing the most boring poo poo imaginable.
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Apr 8, 2020 00:14
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:the fact that it's so ingrained in all our subconcious and still is easily accessible is exactly why they didn't just do the same thing again and why they shouldn't have. Even If they had done just a straight attempt to do a 1:1 remake it would have been haunted by the players' expectations and previous knowledge. the writers and design team knew this and decide to do somethign with it instead of doing the most boring poo poo imaginable. I don't want them to do the same thing again. I think using alt realities and crap is a bad storytelling device and makes me less invested in what I'm into. RevolverDivider posted:this is reddit tier nonsense I couldn't care less about this sort of thing so don't bother.
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Apr 8, 2020 00:15
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Kawalimus posted:I don't want them to do the same thing again. I think using alt realities and crap is a bad storytelling device and makes me less invested in what I'm into. You don't know what you want and I'm sorry but saying "The original story still exists even with this other thing" isn't wishywashy it's how stories work.
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Apr 8, 2020 00:21
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I would argue it's not as ingrained into people's minds as you are arguing, although I don't have a stake in this discussion either way. There are a lot of people who don't remember a lot about FF7, this was discussed in various other threads multiple times over the past...year? Years.
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Apr 8, 2020 00:26
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Kawalimus posted:I don't want them to do the same thing again. I think using alt realities and crap is a bad storytelling device and makes me less invested in what I'm into. Yea its pretty lame, but goons always gonna take the opposite side of the whatever the strawman fanboy in their head thinks.
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Apr 8, 2020 00:26
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RubberLuffy posted:
This owns lol.
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Apr 8, 2020 00:26
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It sort of seems like you're looking for some sort of objective measure to hang your disappointment that it's not a straight-up remake on. Like, let's say the exact same events of this remake happen, but they explicitly say that Sephiroth saw the future and that it isn't an alternate reality--it's a different story from the original, but there's no parallel universe stuff. Does that make it better for you? Same exact story, just with an explicit "no alternate realities" statement. To be very clear I don't really expect this meta twist to be good necessarily, I'm just sort of confused by the "it's not real" take. Harrow fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Apr 8, 2020 |
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Apr 8, 2020 00:28
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It was always going to be impossible, obviously, for FFVIIR to not be in conversation with the original. The original is the only reason it exists! Having the retcon ghosts be a major part of this game, though, does make me sympathetic to the "this is less real" argument. That sounds silly, sure, and this game is exactly as fictional as the original was. At the same time, the game itself is just outright telling you "the original FFVII is how things are supposed to happen." Think about, say, the Batman or Spider-Man movie reboots. Every time the universe reboots, it's a new series of films. Most of the characters are in common, a lot of the plot beats might be in common, there might even be winks and nods to past versions of the characters, but they're each "the real" story within their own universes. Compare that to Into the Spider-Verse. That movie tells us straight out of the gate, by making Peter Parker blonde, that we're not in a "real" Spider-Man retelling: as the audience, we know that the "real" Peter has brown hair. That braces us to expect that the movie might take more chances with its characters, that it might do things to subvert our expectations just because it can but every time it makes one of those choices, it's solidifying what a "real" Spider-Man story is: Olivia Octavius is a fun, surprising reveal because Doc Ock is "really" a man. Despite that, we love Miles and care about his story, but there's always the understanding while watching the movie that they're "allowed" to do the things they're doing because they're not telling a Canonical Peter Parker story, they're telling a story that's a lover letter to Spider-Men. I haven't seen how it's executed, but I feel like the retcon ghosts do something similar to the narrative stakes: the writers aren't willing to (confident enough to?) just go and tell a FFVII story with many of the same characters but with different things happening, they're saying with the text "okay, the FFVII you love, that's still there and that's still the real final fantasy vii, this is a different thing that we're doing that's allowed to be different because we told you that the other thing, that's the real thing".
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Apr 8, 2020 01:16
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Pinterest Mom posted:
This is exactly what I am trying to say. Thank you!
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Apr 8, 2020 01:34
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:You don't know what you want and I'm sorry but saying "The original story still exists even with this other thing" isn't wishywashy it's how stories work. Tfw you're so terminally online you think it's weird that most normal people, who played FF7 once nearly twenty years ago, expect the FF7 Remake to be an FF7 Remake. The internet is a soup and your brain has become the chunks of meat inside it.
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Apr 8, 2020 01:37
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Pinterest Mom posted:I haven't seen how it's executed, but I feel like the retcon ghosts do something similar to the narrative stakes: the writers aren't willing to (confident enough to?) just go and tell a FFVII story with many of the same characters but with different things happening, they're saying with the text "okay, the FFVII you love, that's still there and that's still the real final fantasy vii, this is a different thing that we're doing that's allowed to be different because we told you that the other thing, that's the real thing". It's literally the opposite, the 'retcon ghosts' are the status quo ghosts, they are fighting to make sure that FFVII happens. They intervene when things happen off page, like Hojo trying to say what Cloud is early or Wedge being alive. The entire point of this game is that the FFVII that people know is happening, then it begins to drift, so the ghosts try to put it back on track. In the end you defeat the ghosts, and now all bets are off. FFVII as it existed can no longer happen in their world, things are already different. The game is saying that the thing you know is dead, because you killed it, and now you are making a new thing.
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Apr 8, 2020 01:43
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I haven’t seen it brought up much in this thread, but what does everyone make of the time ghosts being future Cloud, Tifa, and Barret? The enemy descriptions for their battles mention one fights with a sword, one fights with bare fists, and the other with guns.
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Apr 8, 2020 01:49
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HD DAD posted:I haven’t seen it brought up much in this thread, but what does everyone make of the time ghosts being future Cloud, Tifa, and Barret? The enemy descriptions for their battles mention one fights with a sword, one fights with bare fists, and the other with guns. doesn't that describe the advent children guys
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Apr 8, 2020 02:12
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Mulva posted:It's literally the opposite, the 'retcon ghosts' are the status quo ghosts, they are fighting to make sure that FFVII happens. They intervene when things happen off page, like Hojo trying to say what Cloud is early or Wedge being alive. The entire point of this game is that the FFVII that people know is happening, then it begins to drift, so the ghosts try to put it back on track. In the end you defeat the ghosts, and now all bets are off. FFVII as it existed can no longer happen in their world, things are already different. The game is saying that the thing you know is dead, because you killed it, and now you are making a new thing. I agree, but that means that FFVIIR is necessarily not its own thing. In order to reject FFVII, FFVIIR has to be about FFVII. I don't think that's a bad thing - Into the Spider-Verse is a lot more interesting to me than Andrew Garfield Spider-Man or Tom Holland Spider-Man. But it is a choice they made.
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Apr 8, 2020 02:25
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I sorta hope the time ghosts don't disappear from the narrative after part 1 because I feel like that's going to be kind of awkward, especially once the whole series is done and if someone were to play it on its own without having played the original FF7. For those of us who've played the original, making the first part of the remake explicitly about breaking away from the story that we know can be pretty cool; for newcomers, it might be kind of weird to end part 1 with this "now you're free from fate" thing and then never really revisit why that matters.
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Apr 8, 2020 02:34
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Captain Oblivious posted:Tfw you're so terminally online you think it's weird that most normal people, who played FF7 once nearly twenty years ago, expect the FF7 Remake to be an FF7 Remake. Dude I dunno what to tell you if you don't think previous iterations of a story affect the next telling of it in some way. You can't escape it. It happens in every medium and genre where stories are remade or retold. It affects the story as much as writing it in a different time period. Like even the eco-terrorism stuff in FF7 seems quaint now. We've kind of surpassed a lot of the horror they talked about could be coming down the pike. Playing that exactly as they did in 1996 isn't gonna have the same weight writing it in 2020. That's not online brain, that's just media analysis. Even attempts to be 1:1 remakes of things still change, not because of the writing but because of the comprehension of the audience, which differs being in a different time with different context (including the fact that the media in question is in fact a retelling!). poo poo changes, you can't tell the same story to the people the same way twice. Even going back to playing my old PC copy of FF7 the game is going to be different because I'm different. Even if Remake was a 1:1 remake of FF7 Original, someone new coming to it wouldn't have the same experience as I did playing it for the first time in the 90's. Like even with the game going on with it's own spin on the narrative you still have basically every reviewer directly comparing it to the old story, the game is just self aware that it couldn't outrun that comparison and decided to directly respond to that kind of dissonance instead of just playing it straight and hoping it wouldn't be too bad. That plus the fact that the director was put in charge of a remake of a beloved game that he himself admits to not really being His project. There was no way for a Modern SE team, headed by someone that knows he wasn't why the original was the product it was, could recreate it in a way that would be satisfactory if they wanted to go with just a perfect recreation. Cause of that whole deal the first 2 paragraphs were about. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Apr 8, 2020 |
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Apr 8, 2020 02:39
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NikkolasKing posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51az0LDdnvE I can't believe Cloud got a handjob. NikkolasKing posted:Did they replace his actual original theme? No, that song is still in the game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_f8J8WF69c Blueberry Pancakes fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Apr 8, 2020 |
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Apr 8, 2020 03:06
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Harrow posted:I sorta hope the time ghosts don't disappear from the narrative after part 1 because I feel like that's going to be kind of awkward, especially once the whole series is done and if someone were to play it on its own without having played the original FF7. For those of us who've played the original, making the first part of the remake explicitly about breaking away from the story that we know can be pretty cool; for newcomers, it might be kind of weird to end part 1 with this "now you're free from fate" thing and then never really revisit why that matters. You kill the time ghost bahamut at the end of the game and it seems like Sephiroth's time ghost play is kind of done, but he alludes to Aerith dying and whatever so who knows if his well of super time ghost powers will continue. So yeah maybe less time ghosts but the theme of it is important. Maybe loving with the ghosts has made big impacts and other effects will be seen. I'm excited about what bullshit they're going to do from here but I do still think they're going to keep the game tracking along the FF7 narrative with some extra bullshit.
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Apr 8, 2020 03:18
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Harrow posted:I sorta hope the time ghosts don't disappear from the narrative after part 1 because I feel like that's going to be kind of awkward, especially once the whole series is done and if someone were to play it on its own without having played the original FF7. For those of us who've played the original, making the first part of the remake explicitly about breaking away from the story that we know can be pretty cool; for newcomers, it might be kind of weird to end part 1 with this "now you're free from fate" thing and then never really revisit why that matters. I think they could disappear because you are "free from fate", but the fact that you are means we're off the map in terms of the narrative in part 2 and they'll almost definitely talk about it at some point Square isn't subtle enough to just have Aerith live or whatever and not spend 20 minutes dwelling on why
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Apr 8, 2020 03:24
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JBP posted:You kill the time ghost bahamut at the end of the game and it seems like Sephiroth's time ghost play is kind of done, but he alludes to Aerith dying and whatever so who knows if his well of super time ghost powers will continue. So does Sephiroth control the whispers somehow or do they push back against him, too? I'm unclear on which side wants to change fate here the most.
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Apr 8, 2020 03:32
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Harrow posted:So does Sephiroth control the whispers somehow or do they push back against him, too? I'm unclear on which side wants to change fate here the most. He might not have total control of them but he's definitely got his fingers in the destiny pie and he's seeing the future/trying to alter it. The end boss destiny thingies are definitely Sephiroth's crew. I'll be at the final chapters again soon and have a think. First time around I was too busy laughing and going WOW THE ANIME
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Apr 8, 2020 03:38
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Dude I dunno what to tell you if you don't think previous iterations of a story affect the next telling of it in some way. You can't escape it. It happens in every medium and genre where stories are remade or retold. It affects the story as much as writing it in a different time period. Like even the eco-terrorism stuff in FF7 seems quaint now. We've kind of surpassed a lot of the horror they talked about could be coming down the pike. Playing that exactly as they did in 1996 isn't gonna have the same weight writing it in 2020. It’s true there is indeed no space between “100% faithful remake” and “time ghost alternate timeline”. You got me. That is a real argument used by people who aren’t arguing backwards towards a presupposed conclusion for sure. It’s possible to like a thing without transforming into Candide and saying “truly this is the best of all possible worlds” to validate you liking that thing. It can be cool and good and still provoke valid negative reactions.
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Apr 8, 2020 05:14
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If I end up liking this am I going to be the video games equivalent of one of those dudes who loves the Star Wars prequels, or are those the Advent Children super fans
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Apr 8, 2020 05:32
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Harrow posted:If I end up liking this am I going to be the video games equivalent of one of those dudes who loves the Star Wars prequels, or are those the Advent Children super fans I've seen people interested in another TORtanic try to compare it to the Star Wars sequels and it's like... No. Nothing done in this remake is anything like that.
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Apr 8, 2020 05:43
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Harrow posted:If I end up liking this am I going to be the video games equivalent of one of those dudes who loves the Star Wars prequels, or are those the Advent Children super fans This is more like Twin Peaks season 3 where everyone thought we were getting more plucky adventures of Agent Cooper and...well.
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Apr 8, 2020 05:47
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HD DAD posted:This is more like Twin Peaks season 3 where everyone thought we were getting more plucky adventures of Agent Cooper and...well. Cloud: Aeris. You're Aeris Gainsborough Aerith: Who? I'm Aerith Page. Cloud: I want to take you to your mother's home. Your home, at one time. It's very important.
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Apr 8, 2020 06:50
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Mantis42 posted:Cloud: Aeris. You're Aeris Gainsborough Sephiroth: I'll see you in 25 years.
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Apr 8, 2020 07:37
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HD DAD posted:This is more like Twin Peaks season 3 where everyone thought we were getting more plucky adventures of Agent Cooper and...well. Technically they were still adventures, just less plucky and more stoner. Still a mind blowing as hell season though. What SE is doing here is unprecedented. There's no real apt comparison. At best, maybe the friction between fallout 2 to 3, which was actually pretty common for a number of titles that changed from 2d to 3d (including ff6 to 7, iirc). I can't think of any remake that has strayed as far from the original story as this one is doing, and I can't think of a remake that got poo poo on for failing to adhere to their original story, only for gameplay issues or artistic liberties.
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Apr 8, 2020 14:40
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So interestingly, since I am going back through FF7... or rather I'm just going through it because I couldn't get past the chocobo races before because it crashed... There's a bit with Seph and Aerith at the Temple of the Ancients and a bunch of times where Sephiroth/Jenova expresses that it's goal is to become one with the planet, and grasp control of the future, to which Aerith responds that the future belongs to everyone. Now... I know, that back then, it was metaphorical... but now with the remake!
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Apr 8, 2020 15:00
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RubberLuffy posted:
That connection never made any sense and this is even more baffling. I'm gonna just assume this is an easter egg and not actual lore.
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Apr 8, 2020 15:22
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RatHat posted:That connection never made any sense and this is even more baffling. I'm gonna just assume this is an easter egg and not actual lore. I regret to inform you that Kazushige Nojima himself considers the connection real, or at least something he's interested in being real. He said the following in the Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega years ago: Kazushige Nojima posted:After quitting the Gullwings, Shinra received enormous financial support from Rin, and began trying to use Vegnagun to siphon Mako Energy from the Farplane. But, he is unable to complete the system for utilizing this energy in his generation, and in the future, when traveling to distant planets becomes possible, the Shin-Ra Company is founded on another world, or something like that....... That would happen about 1000 years after this story, I think.
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Apr 8, 2020 15:39
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what if the time ghosts just exist to allow for things to be different from the original and wont really come up anymore
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Apr 8, 2020 15:43
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Endorph posted:what if the time ghosts just exist to allow for things to be different from the original and wont really come up anymore This is sorta what I'm expecting and also kinda what I'm hoping isn't the case, because that's a huge setting element to just do away with at the end of part 1. But yeah I fully expect that they're just there to be an in-universe justification for things being different this time. Or more specifically, they push back against things being different, and then the player defeats them, symbolically letting go of the story we thought we were going to get and embracing an unknown future.
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Apr 8, 2020 15:45
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my main hope is that the second part comes out relatively quickly so people can have conversations about where they're taking this rather than the vague concept of where they might be taking this
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Apr 8, 2020 15:46
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You will almost certainly start getting info about where the game is going from the actual developers a year from now as part of the hype campaign
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Apr 8, 2020 15:47
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God I hope so I'm expecting like 2 years, maybe a little more, but if it's longer than that then lol it's going to be agonizing
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Apr 8, 2020 15:48
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Actually another thought that just occurred to me is that if the plot's going to be changing somewhat from here on out, it makes the idea of this being two or three parts more feasible. With how indepth Midgar was and how much content they got out of a relatively small part of the game, it'd need to be like 10 parts to cover the entirety of the original FF7. If the plot's somewhat different, you're more free to clip out parts of the original, abridge things, or have multiple beats occur at once.
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Apr 8, 2020 15:55
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Lessail posted:doesn't that describe the advent children guys Oh goddamn it, I hope that isn't it.
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Apr 8, 2020 15:59
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LadyPictureShow posted:Oh goddamn it, I hope that isn't it. I mean, it describes the Advent Children guys because they were made to have fights with the original 3 FF7 party members.
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Apr 8, 2020 16:02
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