|
OwlFancier posted:It's not dead you melt it's still full of decent members, it's the people at the top who are shits and it's important the members learn that, if your response to the exposure of entrenched power by abhorrent means is to go "welp that sucks better not do anything about it" you might as well shoot yourself in the head cos you're giving them free license to do it for you. Could you cut this out?
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 13:04 |
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Literally all you ever post is suggestions about "giving up" on every single thing. Maybe because barring a bunch of us trying to loving overthrow the government, nothing is going to change? You want change from neo-liberalism and the rot that has infected the labour party? You think playing in a system that they've designed to gently caress the left over is ever going to get anything other than piecemeal, incremental changes? It isn't good enough to vote anymore, you know that even if you don't want to acknowledge it openly, how many times do these people need to burn you before you realise they aren't allies but actively hindering your efforts?
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:09
|
|
|
Tbh this bullshit is more likely to make me angry enough to get off my lazy rear end and go to some meetings and shout a bit than to tear up my membership, but that's me.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:09
|
|
|
Ash Crimson posted:Maybe because barring a bunch of us trying to loving overthrow the government, nothing is going to change? Posting on an internet forum isn't going to do anything either so you're kind of pissing all over yourself here
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:12
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:It's not dead you melt it's still full of decent members, it's the people at the top who are shits and it's important the members learn that, if your response to the exposure of entrenched power by abhorrent means is to go "welp that sucks better not do anything about it" you might as well shoot yourself in the head cos you're giving them free license to do it for you. This is a disgusting post. Pull yourselves up by your bootstraps, stop complaining and get on with it or shoot yourself in the head. Cool.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:14
|
|
|
Ash Crimson posted:Maybe because barring a bunch of us trying to loving overthrow the government, nothing is going to change? Of course voting alone isn't going to be enough, but that doesn't mean "let's just stop participating in politics" which is literally all you ever suggest. Just give up on everything, every time something doesn't go you way, it's just give up on this, give up on that, stop engaging with everything that isn't going my way right now. Like it or not labour remains the largest collection of sympathetic minds you will find in the UK, if the exposure of the betrayal of that mass of decent people by the people at the top makes you just go "oh no I couldn't possibly involve myself with them any more it's all over we're all doomed" then what the hell else are you suggesting?
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:14
|
|
|
Ash Crimson posted:Maybe because barring a bunch of us trying to loving overthrow the government, nothing is going to change?  , and now there's been a massive airing of the right wing leadership's shitey kecks.Now isn't the time for giving up. Now is the time for membership driven change at the top. The bubble has been popped. Momentum et al need to be champing at the bit for the skidmarks left by this lot to be cleansed, and by forward bottom-up change.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:15
|
|
|
TTerrible posted:This is a disgusting post. Some of us don't have the luxury of surrendering, I can't afford to live my life just "giving up" all the time, because I don't have anything left to give up. If politics is life or death for people what the hell else do you characterise giving up as?
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:16
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Of course voting alone isn't going to be enough, but that doesn't mean "let's just stop participating in politics" which is literally all you ever suggest. Just give up on everything, every time something doesn't go you way, it's just give up on this, give up on that, stop engaging with everything that isn't going my way right now. The change which you need to get the concessions you desire is going to require people literally giving up their lives OwlFancier posted:Some of us don't have the luxury of surrendering, I can't afford to live my life just "giving up" all the time, because I don't have anything left to give up. If politics is life or death for people what the hell else do you characterise giving up as? and i do have that luxury? What do you know of my life?
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:17
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Of course voting alone isn't going to be enough, but that doesn't mean "let's just stop participating in politics" which is literally all you ever suggest. Just give up on everything, every time something doesn't go you way, it's just give up on this, give up on that, stop engaging with everything that isn't going my way right now. What are you trying to achieve by being this big a prick and telling people who want to give up to kill themselves? Like seriously what's your goal here, because if it's "keep people in Labour" you're doing a loving poo poo job Guavanaut posted:Labour is the largest party in Europe by membership, Starmer may have won but he lost on votes to The problem here is that Labour has its power concentrated at the top. The changes won over the last 5 years have been because the party was led by a democratiser. If Keir and his mates don't fancy the change, it won't happen.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:18
|
|
|
mfcrocker posted:Like seriously what's your goal here, because if it's "keep people in Labour" you're doing a loving poo poo job Owl has always been like this
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:19
|
|
|
Ash Crimson posted:The change which you need to get the concessions you desire is going to require people literally giving up their lives As opposed to what, them being taken anyway and for absolutely no gain? If you believe the right to be hostile to your very existence why is giving up going to make them spare you? They'll starve you or freeze you to death without a thought. You can't abscond from the consequences of politics by pretending it doesn't exist. Ash Crimson posted:and i do have that luxury? What do you know of my life? I have no loving idea about your life but what I am telling you is that the notion of giving up on participation makes no sense otherwise. That's literally only available to people who have no actual need of political support. If you're not in that group which I would assume you're not, then the position you're advocating makes no sense.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:20
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:As opposed to what, them being taken anyway and for absolutely no gain? If you believe the right to be hostile to your very existence why is giving up going to make them spare you? They'll starve you or freeze you to death without a thought. You can't abscond from the consequences of politics by pretending it doesn't exist. I cannot, in good faith, look at the labour party and believe it's ever going to be a vehicle for leftish politics. OwlFancier posted:I have no loving idea about your life but what I am telling you is that the notion of giving up on participation makes no sense otherwise. That's literally only available to people who have no actual need of political support. If you're not in that group which I would assume you're not, then the position you're advocating makes no sense. It's going to take working-class people rioting and revolting against the government levels of action and death before anything seriously changes that will ever change the joke of a system we have in britain
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:22
|
|
|
mfcrocker posted:The problem here is that Labour has its power concentrated at the top. The changes won over the last 5 years have been because the party was led by a democratiser. Forcing the change sounds like the easier option at the moment.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:23
|
|
|
I don't know what's so hard about keeping your labour membership to be able to push leftist poltica where you can WHILE doing your other organising. All this "leave labour" stuff just seems like purity politics imo. The Labour Party is a tool nothing more. Christ you can even just join a union like unite rather than the party just to keep left voices in it. It literally doesn't take too much.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:24
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Some of us don't have the luxury of surrendering, I can't afford to live my life just "giving up" all the time, because I don't have anything left to give up. If politics is life or death for people what the hell else do you characterise giving up as? Some of us don't have the luxury of endless mental bandwidth to spend throwing ourselves at what appears to be an impenetrable establishment. Jeremy Corbyn won two leadership elections and still couldn't get past it. It's great that you do. I'm sure you were dismayed by the two page spread about how the PM isn't weak like all the people who died of Corona. Maybe don't weaponise that exact same nonsense towards people who are done with Labour. Are they just weak too?
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:27
|
|
|
Ash Crimson posted:I cannot, in good faith, look at the labour party and believe it's ever going to be a vehicle for leftish politics. And that's going to be a lot harder to organize if you're suggesting that all the left leaning people should quit the largest group of left leaning people in the country and go pick their bums instead. There is no alternative organization, there's certainly no alternative organization with any hope of achieving political power or a large platform, if you've a plan to build one then go ahead but it stll makes more sense to participate in the labour party if only because at that point it will be a direct threat and competitior to your alternative organization. I keep saying it but you can't ignore them, they are either a vehicle or an obstacle, a tool or a threat, in either case you're going to be dealing with them and if you want to deal with them on hostile terms you need an alternative organization from which to attack them, which does not exist at the moment and I am frankly skeptical that it could exist more easily than this mess radicalizing the membership against the right.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:29
|
|
|
Guavanaut posted:Then the only thing to do is force the change, or boycott the party for an alternative >500,000 strong left movement. I'm curious how you think forcing the change is going to happen, because I personally don't see the route. zentigeist posted:I don't know what's so hard about keeping your labour membership to be able to push leftist poltica where you can WHILE doing your other organising. I left this month because Labour has been loving crawling with transphobes the entire time I've been in it and I sat there and got on with it because it felt worth doing. I'm not wasting my energy and sanity dealing with that poo poo for a party that's rejecting left-wing politics and has been actively corrupt the whole time too.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:29
|
|
|
Every Starmer voter needs to kneel on Zoom and say "sorry Mr McFee" and whip themselves with a branch before they can post in the threads again
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:30
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/emmadentcoad/status/1249415690941075463 Still hurts a bit that she lost  .
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:32
|
|
|
TTerrible posted:Some of us don't have the luxury of endless mental bandwidth to spend throwing ourselves at what appears to be an impenetrable establishment. Jeremy Corbyn won two leadership elections and still couldn't get past it. It's great that you do. If you, personally, do not have the capability to engage, then fine. That's something you can't do. But there is a difference between that and constantly telling everyone else to give up as well as if it's somehow the better choice for everyone. Because there's no reasonable way that makes sense. It is literally a death sentence for a lot of people if that happens, and I don't have the capability to not take that personally. It is me, and my kin, who will suffer for that apathy.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:32
|
|
|
theres been 3 or more unbearable posts in a row and i have been summoned
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:34
|
|
|
Ash Crimson posted:Maybe because barring a bunch of us trying to loving overthrow the government, nothing is going to change? I think its more the fact that you seem to come across differently from how you imagine it. I have no doubt that this is simply you being factual and urgently informing people of things. In practise however, you give the impression of someone to whom emotion is so foreign that misery is the only one you can identify and so just keep hammering at it. No one in this thread is saying "just go out and vote". Especially not any one of us who are regular posters. In general, Labour is and always has been a means to get more Socialist stuff out there, and the task of persuading folk is going to be hard, but it's something I hope we can all aim for. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Apr 12, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:36
|
|
|
Josef bugman posted:I think its more the fact that you seem to come across differently from how you imagine it. I have no doubt that this is simply you being factual and urgently informing people of things. In practise however, you give the impression of someone to whom emotion is so foreign that misery is the only one you can identify and so just keep hammering at it. Being clinically depressed and autistic does tend to cloud your opinions, judgement and emotions, yes. But you don't know me Josef, perhaps we should keep it that way.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:39
|
|
|
mfcrocker posted:I'm curious how you think forcing the change is going to happen, because I personally don't see the route. The route is to push through pressure groups, the NEC, letter writing, comradely activity. Maybe it's because I came into this whole thing via Bakunin, but I'm not even surprised that the leadership is full of corrupt wreckers to this extent, because they're a leadership group. The leadership of a playgroup would probably become self-interested and bound to their own interests after a few months, and this is a party that's had over a century. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be challenged.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:41
|
|
|
Ash Crimson posted:Being clinically depressed and autistic does tend to cloud your opinions, judgement and emotions, yes. Indeed, I at least half of that, the depression section, too. But the point is to go "okay, is this useful" not to encourage others into this. Would you inflict how we feel on others, in order to have comrades in misery? I don't, but often the responses always seem very personal, in a way that I am not sure is helping. These are clearly very raw things you are talking about and feeling, but what purpose do they serve? Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Apr 12, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:42
|
|
|
So far I haven't seen anything that's surprised me from these. It's good to air these grievances tho and see how kier responds. We already knew they were trying to lose for 5 years, is there evidence of like direct interference and sabotage in there? I did see them trying to reduce NEC turnout which is pretty fuckin bad
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:43
|
|
|
Well, lots of poo poo the plp were rumoured to have been complicit in is now confirmed and other poo poo has been exploding in chain as people read through it and put stuff together and more traitorous wretches start deleting everything and protecting accounts. It was already bad enough to make me quit but just seeing the relish those fuckers put into killing the chances of electoral success in 2017 was physically sickening, as is thinking about how things would have been better over the last three years for my family, and then the country as a whole. All that effort so many people put into the effort, all that time spent away from their families and friends, so they could be backstabbed. Corbyn couldn't purge because it wasn't in him, and even if he was capable it would have been a challenge even with heavy membership support. Now? countdown till starmer does a call for unity and asks folk to put this all behind them at this difficult time and nothing of note is done to sort poo poo out and even more members haemorrhage away and some centrist courtier will bang out a few thousand words for the graun on how these painful times will be a new rebirth for the labour party or some other trite bollocks, while the next set of knives are sharpened within the party apparatus a pox on the rotten plp
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:44
|
|
|
Guavanaut posted:This report has been a gift because it has shown that the leadership were actively corrupt wreckers. If the membership and pressure groups like FM can't use it to push for more member accountable, or at the bare least supportive of a soft left agenda, administrative leadership then I'm not sure what else can. It's an absolute gift I'll readily agree, but my fear is that it'll be way too easy to sweep this under the rug and ignore the pressure. I hope I'm wrong on that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:46
|
|
|
mfcrocker posted:It's an absolute gift I'll readily agree, but my fear is that it'll be way too easy to sweep this under the rug and ignore the pressure. I hope I'm wrong on that. Well let's try and make some noise about it. Tomorrow is going to be quite email heavy I think!
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:48
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:It's not dead you melt it's still full of decent members, it's the people at the top who are shits and it's important the members learn that, if your response to the exposure of entrenched power by abhorrent means is to go "welp that sucks better not do anything about it" you might as well shoot yourself in the head cos you're giving them free license to do it for you. this is a good post, OF, and you don't deserve the kicking you're getting for it TTerrible posted:Are they just weak too? Yes, in their own way, and that's ok. We all have weaknesses. If your political activity is causing you unbearable trauma nobody will begrudge you taking a step back from it. But those who can keep up the fight, should. Sometimes that's going to be hard, and stressful, and it's going to hurt, but you're damned right we need people with the steel to take that and come back ten times harder right now. It's not the 'I am personally leaving Labour because of x' that's frustrating to hear, it's the 'Labour is garbage and everyone should leave and sit about moping about it'. Unless you've got some other very smart plan to upturn the entire political framework we live in, in the UK Labour remains our best shot at agitating for socialism.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:48
|
|
|
ThomasPaine posted:this is a good post, OF, and you don't deserve the kicking you're getting for it If telling people to kill themselves counts as a good post for you, you might want to recalibrate what the gently caress you're considering a good post.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:50
|
|
|
mfcrocker posted:If telling people to kill themselves counts as a good post for you, you might want to recalibrate what the gently caress you're considering a good post. don't worry, I'm sure the moderators are right on top of it
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:52
|
|
|
I was saying that the suggestion is suicidal that that it is bad because of that. I don't want anyone ITT to die by their own hand or by anyone else's and that's why I want as many as possible to fight.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:52
|
|
|
Josef bugman posted:Indeed, I at least half of that, the depression section, too. But the point is to go "okay, is this useful" not to encourage others into this. Would you inflict how we feel on others, in order to have comrades in misery? What would you have me do?
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:53
|
|
|
mfcrocker posted:If telling people to kill themselves counts as a good post for you, you might want to recalibrate what the gently caress you're considering a good post. This is a loving reach tbh
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:54
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:I was saying that the suggestion is suicidal that that it is bad because of that. I don't want anyone ITT to die by their own hand or by anyone else's and that's why I want as many as possible to fight. Sure, well assuming this is in good faith you might want to watch your wording in the future because that post was horrible.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:54
|
|
|
DesperateDan posted:Now? countdown till starmer does a call for unity and asks folk to put this all behind them at this difficult time and nothing of note is done to sort poo poo out and even more members haemorrhage away and some centrist courtier will bang out a few thousand words for the graun on how these painful times will be a new rebirth for the labour party or some other trite bollocks, while the next set of knives are sharpened within the party apparatus
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:54
|
|
|
You need to stay in the Labour Party and fight, so you can get easily outmaneuvered by a bunch of labour party staffers called "Jolyon" for 5 years
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 13:04 |
|
|
I'm just really torn, on the one hand Labour does seem like one of the most effective potential tools for left-wing politics, on the other actually using them for left-wing politics is looking pretty futile and maybe there are better things to be wasting my limited time on this Earth with than trying to get the British public to do something, anything in their own self-interest I admit I'm probably just sliding back towards generalised total pessimism about humanity. I know that that isn't helpful or productive, but I almost had a complete mental breakdown in December, which I only avoided by completely 100% boycotting any information about the world in general for several months. I can't really see myself pouring my time and soul and energy into another election campaign if the people now in charge of the party try and sweep this under the carpet like they seem to be doing currently, because that's just compounding the contempt for the membership that the report makes clear. I'm still planning on staying a member, at least until there is some indication of policy direction, but frankly it's all just looking a bit hopeless at the moment. It's definitely the good and right thing to do to carry on working for left wing government but it's also really hard and I'm not going to beat myself up if I do eventually decide that it's not worth making myself miserable trying to save the Great British Public from themselves tldr; I'm not quite giving up yet
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2020 21:59
|
|