|
Canuckistan posted:mmmm... finally got bots running in K2. FIrst thing I did was plunk down this mega mall I really like that modular design he used rather than just a huge megamall with everything, allowing the player to plunk down the more advanced items/modules as they get the tech, or just being able to build the mall in whatever order works for you based on how you play. Really cool.
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2020 18:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 00:26 |
|
|
I've decided to start a new map and doing a LTN grid style factory instead of a single bus as my second factory after setting up some basic stuff. Trying to find some good references/blueprints for it. I'm guessing having a main line for trains and some depots is a good start and build off from there? Also thinking about having smelting off-base as I've never done that before.
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2020 18:57
|
|
Enter sadman
|
Canuckistan posted:mmmm... finally got bots running in K2. FIrst thing I did was plunk down this mega mall Oh this modular design is a very cool idea, I have a mall BP for krastorio2, but I don't like it very much tbh, I might check this one out
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2020 20:54
|
|
|
I got incredibly close to finishing my 1k SPM base, but then I got burnt out and had to take a break. I think I'm about ready to dive back in and finish it. I have a couple questions to make it more efficient. How do you handle unloading large amounts of ore at the smelter? In series or in parallel? Series is nice because the trains end up with plenty of space to unload and they can unload near the furnaces they are supplying, but the logistics ends up with trains tripping over each other. Parallel is nice because moving trains in and out is a snap, but you end up with a nasty underground belt setup routing all that ore past parked trains. I can post pictures once I'm back at my computer if need be. Is nuclear power really that bad for UPS? I'm using nuclear and solar at the moment and trying to phase out nuclear, but I'm running out of space. Space is infinite, but infinity is full of biters. My CPU is about 6 years so hopefully it can handle 1k SPM. Is there a way to make trains read their fuel status so they can head to a fuel depot when they get low? Otherwise the only thing I can think of is to have fuel drops at most train stops or every train stops by the depot for 10 seconds on every trip. Travic fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Apr 15, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2020 19:52
|
|
|
Travic posted:Is nuclear power really that bad for UPS? I'm using nuclear and solar at the moment and trying to phase out nuclear, but I'm running out of space. Space is infinite, but infinity is full of biters. My CPU is about 6 years so hopefully it can handle 1k SPM. Off the top of my head, it's something about the heat pipes. Solar is king because it has no "moving parts", so to speak - you plop down a solar panel, it just generates power, no inserters, belts, or fluid physics required. As far as trains go, assuming you're not using any train mods, there's a number of different ways people have approached the problem... Any train station in your main logistics network can pretty trivially have requester chests and stack inserters. If all of your train routes involve at least one regular stop somewhere inside your logistics network, problem solved. On the other hand, if you have trains that operate outpost-to-outpost (like, say, picking up ore from one outpost and delivering it to a smelting outpost), you might have trains that never stop inside your logistics network. One solution to that, amusingly, is more trains. Set up each of your outposts to have a local logistics network (disconnected from your main one) and create a new stop at each outpost that exists to offload supplies - in this case, fuel. Drop a (stack) filter inserter and a provider chest on the output, maybe do a little bit of basic wiring to limit the outpost to only stock one or two trains' worth of fuel max, and just give every train stop a requester chest tied to the local logistics network so your trains top off fuel at every opportunity. This is basically the "supply train" paradigm - you can expand the fuel delivery train from carrying just fuel into more generic base-building supplies. Set the train to stock itself with robots, buildings, belts, everything you'd need to get an outpost going, set the train stop to turn itself off when it's stocked, and you can have one (or more) supply trains quietly keeping your outposts stocked on food, ammo, and robots in the background. Then, whenever you want to set up a new outpost, you only need to bring tracks and a starter kit to build a stop to summon the supply train, and then the supply train will show up, offload a bunch of materials and robots into your new outpost's local network, and then you can let the robots handle the work of actually constructing the outpost without needing to personally lug around a ton of materials.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2020 21:36
|
|
|
Olesh posted:This is basically the "supply train" paradigm - you can expand the fuel delivery train from carrying just fuel into more generic base-building supplies. Set the train to stock itself with robots, buildings, belts, everything you'd need to get an outpost going, set the train stop to turn itself off when it's stocked, and you can have one (or more) supply trains quietly keeping your outposts stocked on food, ammo, and robots in the background. Then, whenever you want to set up a new outpost, you only need to bring tracks and a starter kit to build a stop to summon the supply train, and then the supply train will show up, offload a bunch of materials and robots into your new outpost's local network, and then you can let the robots handle the work of actually constructing the outpost without needing to personally lug around a ton of materials. This is what the fourth cargo wagon of my FARL train is: ammo, turrets, walls, miners, belts, inserters, chests/warehouses, a spot for the car or tank depending on which one or if I'm using them at the time, all set up to feed into reserved slots from belts or logistics chests. Third car is power poles (including mediums for outpost construction), signals of both types, and at least half landfill, second is 100% rails, delivered and topped up likewise, first is reserved for Reverse Fern Gully purposes and automatically emptied into a warehouse at the FARLking lot. Unless I'm using a mod like K2 which fiddles around with various fuel values, I will generally fuel the two FARLs with wood drawn from those supplies.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2020 22:23
|
|
|
Olesh posted:Off the top of my head, it's something about the heat pipes. Solar is king because it has no "moving parts", so to speak - you plop down a solar panel, it just generates power, no inserters, belts, or fluid physics required. Yup, for nuclear there is steam and water and heat that all have to be handled. Solar is treated as a single entity (per network) for all power generation and has basically 0 impact on frame processing time. The UPS hit for nuclear isn't too bad until you are generating many GW with it. A 1K SPM base should be fine with nuclear power.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2020 22:39
|
|
|
Olesh posted:Off the top of my head, it's something about the heat pipes. Solar is king because it has no "moving parts", so to speak - you plop down a solar panel, it just generates power, no inserters, belts, or fluid physics required. Ok I'll see what I can work out. Thanks. I have fuel drops at large common points like raw resource drop-offs and large sub-factories (red and green circuits). That catches the vast majority of trains. The problem now is little trains like Batteries>Robot factory. I saw that supply train idea on Katherineofsky's videos as well. It was a game changer, because previously I was packing my car up with I'm also getting to the point where I want to start over and build the factory better from the ground up. I can see so many ways to make it neater and more efficient. Peak Factorio basically. Travic fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Apr 16, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2020 22:46
|
|
|
Travic posted:How do you handle unloading large amounts of ore at the smelter? In series or in parallel? It tends to vary quite a bit for me from game to game, and from outpost to outpost, but generally some variation of parallel. Usually messy and not visually appealing too!    
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2020 23:06
|
|
|
It depends on how many belts of material the outpost needs as input. If your outpost needs a sustained 16 belts of input, then there's no way to avoid having 16 belts coming out of the train unloading area. So, figure out how many belts of material you need, figure out how many belts a single station can supply (including time for the train to leave and the next one to pull in), and build enough parallel stations to supply that many belts (rounding up, if needed). Then build a parking stack in front so that once you actually have enough trains running to supply that quantity of materials, they don't back up on to the main line.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 01:54
|
|
|
Here's my current setup. It's a garbage fire compared to everyone else's. The belts are not full because of a power shortage I was fighting before I took a break. Close-up  Zoomed out
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 02:29
|
|
|
Why do you have two unloading stations on a single line?
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 02:37
|
|
|
Arrath posted:Why do you have two unloading stations on a single line? That's what I meant by having them in series. There should be a second track next to it for trains to get in and out, but I got burnt out before I built it. If this system has merit I'll continue it, but if parallel is superior I can switch over. It's just me building and I've purposefully avoided looking up too much stuff because I'd feel bad copying others designs. This leads me to trying a lot of weird ideas. Most of which don't work, but the problem solving is fun.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 02:56
|
|
|
It just screams bottleneck to me, at the least make a bypass lane around the 2nd station so the first train can vacate at the earliest possibility. Still its bigger than anything I've built for train supply to I might just be talking poo poo. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 03:11
|
|
|
Arrath posted:It just screams bottleneck to me, at the least make a bypass lane around the 2nd station so the first train can vacate at the earliest possibility. Oh yeah. Without a bypass its a nightmare. The previous smaller version had one, but I got burnt out before building one here. I went ahead and sort of finished it so you can get a better idea. 
Travic fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Apr 16, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 03:24
|
|
|
In series with bypass lanes works fine in many cases. I've built plenty of stations like that in my early games and they were never a problem as long as I have a stacker set up and the signalling correct so that the incoming trains wait in the stacker until one of the unloading (or loading) stations is free. My current game really should have some trains, but I just keep on adding localized stuff with belts. Mostly because I'm trying to scale up module 3's, and they require a stupid amount of input for a tiny amount of output so I just build everything I need to get to the final product in a spot where I have all the materials and then let the robots pick up the horribly small output. Once the locations with these builds start running out of ore to process then I'll either train in the ore, or more likely the plates and rip out the smelting at the site. I have Factorio Extended+ on this game, so I'm running T5 assemblers, and using prod-mod3 (Prod-mod6 on the blue circuits) and beacons with speed-mod3, in order to feed 2 assemblers making 0.3 prod-mod3 per second, it eats 5 blue belts of iron plates and 6 blue belts of copper plates (I think.. it's in that area) along with 2 blue belts of plastic and the coal and petroleum needed to make the plastic (coal liquifaction setups) and acid. My smelters are all moduled up as well where 1.25 red belts in makes 1 blue belt out (I just give them blue belts in for simplicity). Now that I have the first one of these all set up and mostly tuned, I can just plop them down in modules now (broken up into the module production, blue circuit, red circuits and green circuits) and connect them together and go.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2020 04:53
|
|
|
Getting into singularity tech with Krastorio 2 and ho boy, resource usage goes up quite a bit! I have to increase my LDS production 6 fold just for one input. I've been really enjoying this mod, the scaling is really well designed as you progress through tech.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 15:28
|
|
|
Parallel is the only way to go to increase throughput at large scales. But, you have to serialize each parallel smelter to minimize downtime from train travel, usually through a stacker of some sort. Input on the bottom, output on the top. Output stations are mildly wired to only enable when enough supply is available to load a full train. This is from before I put in all the trains to supply it (and having enough ore outposts is another exercise in itself). If I were to build this again I would probably add a couple extra east-west entry/exit lanes and spread out the stackers so trains for stations on the end don't have to run past every other station. The "nasty underground setup" isn't all that bad with a setup like this; you only have to route products under the entry or exit lane(s). As with anything, the key is to plan for what you need and leave enough space. Trying to shoehorn more lanes of throughput into an existing setup without sufficient space is always going to result in a belt nightmare. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 16:19
|
|
|
That's... a lot of gears. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 17:13
|
|
|
Well if you've launched 900 satellites and are still playing, eventually you're gonna set up a big gear factory. Has anyone made a graphic or something with the numbers for 1K SPM, or should I just pull up a calculator and go through it myself?
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 17:56
|
|
|
Chakan posted:Well if you've launched 900 satellites and are still playing, eventually you're gonna set up a big gear factory. 1k spm isn't really that bad if you go with fully moduled/beaconed setup in vanilla. Not sure if they are still out there, but for 0.17 there was a set of science blueprints for 1kspm and they were really quite compact and each blueprint for a single science did all the components on-site except for oil derived stuff, so you just needed to supply the proper input belts and bam.. 1000 yellow (or whatever) science per minute was done. I used those to do my first (and only) 1kspm base and it really worked just fine on my original bus upgraded to blue belts with trains bringing in the belt inputs. Every time I've tried to scale up to that or more in a dispersed base I've sort of run out of steam and never finished it though.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 18:11
|
|
|
Parallel unloading stations are for sure called for in a kspm base. I haven't done the math in a very long time, and I think required raw material inputs have gotten slightly more varied and also been scaled back somewhat, but during the initial science rework I got ore/minute numbers that were in the 11-12 (e: cargo wagons of) iron/m and 7-8 copper/m ballparks. You don't need dozens of sidings for everything, but if you have a unified railhead then after stone, coal, oil, and uranium you might be looking at one dozen.
LonsomeSon fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Apr 18, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2020 23:11
|
|
|
Travic posted:
Here your furnaces are aligned exactly with the beacons -- if you offset them bone one tile your beacon coverage will go from 6/furnace to 8/furnace.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2020 00:37
|
|
|
I will make my next setup parallel for sure. Not sure I have it in me tear all that down and rebuild the entire factory around it for this run.  The next run should go much faster. At least half the time spent on this one was just figuring out how to work at this scale. I may also turn off biters or adjust the map so I have chokepoints. That was the other big thing that burnt me out. Feels kind of like cheating though. Mario posted:Here your furnaces are aligned exactly with the beacons -- if you offset them bone one tile your beacon coverage will go from 6/furnace to 8/furnace. Oh poo poo. Thanks for the tip. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2020 09:07
|
|
|
Build everything in a train network, once you commission your new factory, close off the old factories station (or disable the LTN on it) and then wait for the output station to empty. Then just tear down the old factory. That’s the beauty with point-to point train network layouts, you can leave you old inefficient stuff running as long as it needs to and seemlessly decommission it when the replacement is done. None of this “closing the bus for 95 minutes while I try and jam the beaconed blue circuits in” there poo poo. Edit: for example in an older game I had a train setup and at one point had two smelters with steel furnaces and yellow belts, one with red belts and electrics and then finished one with A fully beaconized blue belt setup. That last one was so good it let me finally turn off the steel furnaces. I then levelled the steel furnaces setup and put another beaconized blue setup there when I had the resources. At no point was I not making enough plates or had to stop production. Drone_Fragger fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Apr 18, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2020 15:53
|
|
|
Drone_Fragger posted:Build everything in a train network, once you commission your new factory, close off the old factories station (or disable the LTN on it) and then wait for the output station to empty. Then just tear down the old factory. That’s the beauty with point-to point train network layouts, you can leave you old inefficient stuff running as long as it needs to and seemlessly decommission it when the replacement is done. None of this “closing the bus for 95 minutes while I try and jam the beaconed blue circuits in” there poo poo. Gotcha. I'll just have to expand the defensive line a bunch to make room. Do most people play with biters off?
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2020 02:30
|
|
|
I think most players that end up playing longer play with biters off at first because they treat it more like a puzzle game than an RTS. Then they reach a point where they've figured out the puzzle that is vanilla, and they either turn biters on for the challenge or switch over to one of the various overhaul modpacks.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2020 02:46
|
|
|
Travic posted:Gotcha. I'll just have to expand the defensive line a bunch to make room. Do most people play with biters off? I leave biters on but tend to push them out as far as possible from the beginning and turn expansion off. I wish I could turn the biters back onto expansion beyond the early game when they frustrate me. Eventually when a base gets really big and my tech has gotten to a point where I can just waltz into even the largest biter bases and laugh as my point defense lasers annihilate them I tend to get tired of them or they start impacting UPS and I'll then use a console command to wipe them off the map. So.. I'm all over the place when it comes to biters I guess!
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2020 05:27
|
|
|
Id like them in a specific scenario where you have to use the factory to defend several key chokepoints, but you can freely expand in other directions.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2020 15:57
|
|
|
Biters need to be attacked and aggressively cleared out. If a biter base is in your pollution cloud, then it must be destroyed. You can't silo off your base and just build defenses. The biter attacks will grow until your defenses are overwhelmed. Once you're at the point where you want to make larger train networks, you should have the tank unlocked, which is great for quickly dealing with biter bases. You can also just play with biters off if you don’t like them. I just like making pretty factories at my own pace. The game is already pulling me in so many directions at once, I don't need the additional distraction. Half-wit posted:I think most players that end up playing longer play with biters off at first because they treat it more like a puzzle game than an RTS. I've been playing for a thousand hours and I still haven't figured out vanilla.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2020 16:24
|
|
|
Dr. Stab posted:Biters need to be attacked and aggressively cleared out. If a biter base is in your pollution cloud, then it must be destroyed. You can't silo off your base and just build defenses. The biter attacks will grow until your defenses are overwhelmed. The thing with doing this, is that it just gets to be a boring distraction that just becomes a chore, and if your base gets large enough and expansion is turned on, then you end up spending 100% of your time clearing nest because by the time you've finished a complete circuit wiping them out, they have expanded into half the area you just cleared, and that's with power armor Mk3 and PDL's that allow you to just run through them to clear them. At that point you must design defenses that can handle whatever the biters throw at you, and only clear areas that you are immediately expanding into. This can be a fun challenge for a while, but certainly if it isn't something you enjoy, there is nothing that says you can't either turn expansion off, or just turn the biters off or go for peaceful mode. One of the best things about Factorio is that you can play it in so many different ways, and none of them are the 'wrong' way! Edit: You can certainly build defenses that will handle vanilla 100% evolution without too much difficulty. You set up a wall with belt or train feeds to them and set up combined defenses. I typically used gun turrets backed by flamers, and sometimes lasers, and then also 100% outer wall artillery turrets to keep the actual nests outside of maximum artillery range. Everything always has robot coverage and a constant supply of repair packs. When I got ready to expand I would take manual control of artillery to wipe out all the nests at maximum control range in the direction of my expansion, then do my expansion pushing my defensive wall with the combined arms out to the new area. The Locator fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Apr 19, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2020 19:35
|
|
|
I still very fondly remember the time I decided to use my shiny new endgame tech and automate destroying bases by sending an artillery train to all of my outposts. As it turns out, this is a great way to make sure all of your outposts get attacked simultaneously.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2020 19:48
|
|
|
nrook posted:I still very fondly remember the time I decided to use my shiny new endgame tech and automate destroying bases by sending an artillery train to all of my outposts. I've used artillery trains, but honestly not a big fan. I'd rather just plant fixed artillery batteries all around my walls so that they continually hit new biter locations as they expand into range, this prevents the huge swarm attacks. Of course each time you research a new level of artillery range you get attacked from literally every direction at once, so hopefully the defenses are good enough!
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2020 20:07
|
|
|
nrook posted:I still very fondly remember the time I decided to use my shiny new endgame tech and automate destroying bases by sending an artillery train to all of my outposts. I did this once too. It was straight out of Starship Troopers, holy poo poo.  Contact was lost with many a forward mining base.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2020 20:10
|
|
|
Hopefully biters get another pass either before 1.0 or shortly after, because the game could do with changes to make dealing with them a bit more dynamic. For example, make having nests in your cloud easier to deal with, but also make biters get mad as hell when you stop expansion parties. Just throw a few more mechanics in to make things less predictable and more engaging, while hopefully treading the line between "biters do nothing" and "lol entire base gone in 60 seconds". I still like them a lot, but there's definitely room for improvement.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2020 20:29
|
|
|
Watching waves break on the walls around your artillery emplacements or running through bases in an end game combat loadout with capsules and handheld nukes is an awesome feeling but I can understand how that can be a one and done experience by the time you just want to build a mega base.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2020 21:30
|
|
|
Pretty much, yeah, and depending on your map seed you might need to do it a good few times before your first rocket, too. Clearing bases feels really good when you've first got Trouser Lasers or when you sally out with a pocket full of action for the first time, but there's usually a long period (in vanilla at least) where clearing out chokepoint-friendly sections of land just takes friggin' ages because you haven't got whatever technology in abundance yet to make it a breeze. Even when it is a breeze, it ends up being a job that takes human time and attention, which, given the general automation theme of the game, makes you notice all the time and attention spent even more so. Hell, just revealing the terrain can take a good while, and that feels like you're not doing anything. Basically fully agreed with the idea that it feels like a chore, most of the time anyway. I still appreciate the pressure of having to defend from biters and plan ahead production and land use with them in mind, but i've definitely had long factorio sessions cut short (or drag on longer than they should) because it's time to defend the fart cloud again instead of expanding production. I'm doing a run to collect vanilla achievements now that .18 is out of beta, so i'm especially aware of the fact i can't just switch off biters or install a couple of mods. I like the idea of biter AI having a complex response to your defense structures or attacks, but i suspect it could tip the focus of the game and make bugs less of a general external pressure and more of an embodied single threat, like a bizarro-world starcraft tower defense, if it's not done just so. I actually had a pretty good time using artillery trains on a patrol in my last few games, though the first few salvos naturally spaced themselves out due to the amount of ammo needed. Only having one or two gun carriages helps with pacing out the counter-attacks, even though seeing 6+ rounds in the air at once looks way cooler on the radar. Wagons also let you scout more quickly by manual fire, which is really handy for seeing across large lakes etc. For what it's worth i've always built laser turrets on my outer perimeter and overbuilt my power storage/production because all you need is a pocket full of pylons, and they're very quick to get up and running on said territory expansion trips, no worries about setting up an ammo or oil supply. Wallrod fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Apr 19, 2020 |
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2020 22:57
|
|
|
I want a mechanic similar to Rampant where the biters have a little more brain than just mass zerg rush. Small attacks slowly ramping up to a big attack then an ebb back to small attacks for a bit, then the process repeats from another direction. Make radars throw out "early warning" alarm noises when theres a medium or large attack clump heading toward your base so you've got like 60 seconds of warning. Rather than just spawners sending a straight line now and then.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2020 23:19
|
|
|
Biters eat up far more UPS for me than any piping of fluids. Was working on my base and noticed UPS was dipping below 60, eventually even sub-30. Ran a console command to clear all the biters off the map, and was back up to 60+ immediately.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2020 04:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 00:26 |
|
|
Are you on 0.18? They did some work on biters. If you are they might be interested in a report if it was that noticable.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2020 01:19
|
|