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The sidequests that have boss fights in them usually have manuscripts
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Apr 21, 2020 18:14
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Inferior posted:I thought that too, but bringing Zack back right at the end suggests they have further plans for this. Why would he survive if they weren't going to use him in future installments? FFVII doesn't need anything, it's a game that already exists and is done. This new game needed something to be it's push, because it's not VII.
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Apr 21, 2020 18:15
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Pollyanna posted:I really like this interpretation. one of my biggest concerns for the remake is that the environmentalist themes would be neutered, but they've actually done a reasonably effective job of updating it to the modern day, especially in regards to how the rapaciousness of the ruling classes is enabled by the complacency of the people below them regardless of their own morality - e.g. barret's "good men are not without sin" speech. the protagonists are likewise fighting for a good cause, but the general flow of events they're following is leading them to disaster. both groups have to recognize and take a stand against the manipulation of greater forces in order to change their futures, even if it's totally futile in the end maybe too close to nier automata's schtick to be the intended aim, but the environmentalist themes in this game are too prevalent for me to consider them mere set dressing for the You Can (Not) Remake shenanigans with the Whispers
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Apr 21, 2020 18:18
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Tim Rogers is currently writing his way-too-long FF7R video review and I'm really excited for what he has to say because he's the guy who did this video LP of the original game while comparing the English and Japanese scripts and it's pretty fun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCeN2KjRHZk&t=190s Harrow fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Apr 21, 2020 |
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Apr 21, 2020 18:18
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Mulva posted:FFVII doesn't need anything, it's a game that already exists and is done. This new game needed something to be it's push, because it's not VII. True, but I think destiny ghosts are a pretty crappy 'something'.
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Apr 21, 2020 18:26
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Destiny ghosts are not that bad, c’mon.
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Apr 21, 2020 18:31
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Pollyanna posted:Destiny ghosts are not that bad, c’mon. I really hate them. Not so much for what they represent, but for how badly they're executed. That whole "Barret is loving DEAD guys! oh wait he's fine a ghost fixed him" was awful.
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Apr 21, 2020 18:39
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Why did that, in particular, gently caress with you? Just interested, they've done so much poo poo up to that point, why did THAT tip you over the line?
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Apr 21, 2020 18:40
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Destiny ghosts were lame mostly because they were ugly. Represent destiny with an anime pretty boy with a big sword imo
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Apr 21, 2020 18:43
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Mulva posted:Why did that, in particular, gently caress with you? Just interested, they've done so much poo poo up to that point, why did THAT tip you over the line? Really badly done death fakeouts in movies/TV just get to me. It's the cheapest, lamest way of making the audience feel something and as a bonus kinda undermines any future tension. see also Chewie in the last Star Wars movie. e: and as a bonus the scene pointlessly visually quoting the Aeris death scene is pretty gross too. Necrothatcher fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Apr 21, 2020 |
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Apr 21, 2020 18:44
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Pollyanna posted:Do subquests count towards the manuscripts or just the main story? Subquests count.
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Apr 21, 2020 18:47
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I liked the time ghosts, and also hated them and wanted to punch the faces they don't have after the plate drop. So like...decent sorta antagonists really.
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Apr 21, 2020 18:48
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Necrothatcher posted:Really badly done death fakeouts in movies/TV just get to me. It's the cheapest, lamest way of making the audience feel something and as a bonus kinda undermines any future tension. I got the idea that the point was that the audience knew Barret didn't die there. They even made a point of showing the Whispers catching him before he falls and surrounding him in green healing light before the boss fight begins. You're supposed to catch onto the fact that Barret isn't "supposed" to die and that the Whispers won't let it happen. I mean, it's still kind of a weird scene and I don't really love how quickly they all move on from Barret being revived and brought back because it's Fate, but it's not really intended to be a legitimate fakeout, I don't think.
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Apr 21, 2020 18:49
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Holy balls, the Wrath Hound in chapter 3 is insane now. It takes out like 1/4 of your HP per hit, and a Throat Clamp is basically an instant kill. I'm pretty sure I have top-tier equipment and my materia loadout seems fine, what am I missing?
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Apr 21, 2020 18:50
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Pollyanna posted:Holy balls, the Wrath Hound in chapter 3 is insane now. It takes out like 1/4 of your HP per hit, and a Throat Clamp is basically an instant kill. I'm pretty sure I have top-tier equipment and my materia loadout seems fine, what am I missing? If I remember correctly, tagging it with magic interrupts Throat Clamp so I think you might be supposed to interrupt it. I did find that dog pounce attacks were some of the few attacks that could be reliably dodged if you got the timing down but, well, I don't really have the timing down 
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Apr 21, 2020 18:51
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The direction that the conversation keeps taking is the definition of "oh nooo pull up thread PULL UP" I don't know if it's a choice-of-language thing, or if it's people who just really, really wanna to talk past each other instead of with each other, but there are several extremely key points that somehow keep getting missed or ignored on both sides of the discussion. I get that it's maybe still fresh, so maybe people wanna control the narrative about who likes this ending and why the people who do/don't are good/bad, but that's super reductive and incredibly tiresome to read.
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Apr 21, 2020 18:52
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Pollyanna posted:Holy balls, the Wrath Hound in chapter 3 is insane now. It takes out like 1/4 of your HP per hit, and a Throat Clamp is basically an instant kill. I'm pretty sure I have top-tier equipment and my materia loadout seems fine, what am I missing? I hear tell that subversion Materia to dispel it when it berserks are pretty handy. Minor sidenote, but am I the only one who thinks the "Hounds" look more feline then canine?
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Apr 21, 2020 18:52
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Caidin posted:I liked the time ghosts, and also hated them and wanted to punch the faces they don't have after the plate drop. So like...decent sorta antagonists really. Part of the problem with destiny ghosts as antagonists is that it's never defined exactly what they want to achieve. There's this nebulous sense of them preserving fate, but to what end? Plus you can't really emotionally identify with the desires of unknowable destiny ghosts. Most of that goes for Sephiroth in this game too. Contrast that with President Shinra, who we know wants to find the promised land, build Neo-Midgar and exploit the natural resources of the planet. Y'know, relevant motivations for a contemporary villain.
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Apr 21, 2020 18:53
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guts and bolts posted:The direction that the conversation keeps taking is the definition of "oh nooo pull up thread PULL UP" I think you've brought that "key points getting ignored" thing up before (maybe that was someone else though, it's been a long couple days). What are you referring to? Honestly I'm just curious what you're seeing on either side that we tend to be talking past.
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Apr 21, 2020 18:54
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Harrow posted:I got the idea that the point was that the audience knew Barret didn't die there. They even made a point of showing the Whispers catching him before he falls and surrounding him in green healing light before the boss fight begins. You're supposed to catch onto the fact that Barret isn't "supposed" to die and that the Whispers won't let it happen. He gets stabbed exactly like Aeris by the same guy with the same sword. It's like the single most straightforward way of telling a FF7 player that he's dead. For realsies.
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Apr 21, 2020 18:55
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Pollyanna posted:Holy balls, the Wrath Hound in chapter 3 is insane now. It takes out like 1/4 of your HP per hit, and a Throat Clamp is basically an instant kill. I'm pretty sure I have top-tier equipment and my materia loadout seems fine, what am I missing? "Top-tier equipment" is largely a matter of taste on Hard mode, though. Your weapon selection will come down to a couple of different factors. Armor is a little more cut and dry, but even accessory choice is influenced more by how you play than there being any concrete Best Choice. If you have Elemental+weakness in Cloud and Tifa's materia loadout, just cast the spell that your target is weak against to create pressure states against a large swath of the enemies you'll be contending with, provided your normal attack chains and Focused [attack] weapon skills aren't doing the trick.
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Apr 21, 2020 18:56
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Necrothatcher posted:Part of the problem with destiny ghosts as antagonists is that it's never defined exactly what they want to achieve. There's this nebulous sense of them preserving fate, but to what end? Plus you can't really emotionally identify with the desires of unknowable destiny ghosts. Most of that goes for Sephiroth in this game too. I think they wanted to have a firm villain who we would defeat in the first act to get a feeling of satisfaction. Sephiroth is out (though Advent Children Seph is still the final boss for extremely unclear reasons), the Shinra president is out because Sephiroth kills him and having the main antagonist get kill stolen would suck, so we got destiny ghosts. I probably would have been happier with a more anthropomorphic villain (or at least one that could talk), but there's definitely reasons they didn't go all in on any of the existing villains. Maybe they could have expanded on Rufus' role and made that rooftop battle the climax? But it'd be weird to have the climax be a solo battle with Cloud. There's just no great options, period. Speaking of villains, it's probably been said to death in the 50 pages I didn't read, but they mishandled Sephiroth pretty severely. Getting to fight a Sephiroth clone in Shinra tower was a great call, but he appears too often and that final boss fight was seriously out of place
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Apr 21, 2020 19:01
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Necrothatcher posted:Part of the problem with destiny ghosts as antagonists is that it's never defined exactly what they want to achieve. There's this nebulous sense of them preserving fate, but to what end? Plus you can't really emotionally identify with the desires of unknowable destiny ghosts. Most of that goes for Sephiroth in this game too. This is one of those things where I think it's going to play really differently for people who played the original versus people who are new to the remake. For people who played the original, it becomes clear fairly early on--halfway through at the latest--that the Whispers are forcing the plot to go the way the original FF7 plot does, and then we know, thanks to our meta knowledge, that that needs to happen for the world to be saved (especially once Red XIII says that "fate" basically just means "the will of the planet). But if you didn't play the original, then it's going to play out how you describe it. They're forcing a specific fate to some end and the player gets really unclear glimpses of that end, but, like, why? Why do they want that? Are they bad? Good? Neutral? And maybe that's the point, because that's as much as most of the characters know, too, but it makes for kind of a confusing and potentially alienating antagonist to make the focus of the game's big climax. The dramatic irony that a player of the original would feel is missed there. I think that's a recurring issue with a remake that puts so much into winking and nudging towards players of the original--it becomes obvious to people who didn't play the original that that's what's happening, but it's meaningless to them. This is all to say that I generally don't think the whole thing is executed well at all for something if it's intended to be a standalone game, something for both veterans and newcomers. I'm not opposed to the Whispers' inclusion or the exploration of the themes they represent necessarily, I just don't think their execution in the game we got really pulls it off. That's a real problem I have with that aspect of the remake and is why I hope it doesn't continue being preoccupied with the meta-level self-awareness going forward. I want it to stand on its own even if you never played the original.
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Apr 21, 2020 19:01
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As in most video games, dogs prove to be the most deadly enemies.
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Apr 21, 2020 19:02
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Necrothatcher posted:Part of the problem with destiny ghosts as antagonists is that it's never defined exactly what they want to achieve. There's this nebulous sense of them preserving fate, but to what end? Plus you can't really emotionally identify with the desires of unknowable destiny ghosts. Most of that goes for Sephiroth in this game too. They are constant harassing force that bother florists, hurt your friends, run interference critical to the destruction of your new home and also keep Hojo from telling Cloud something very interesting. You don't really need to know the full scope of their agenda, in this case making things run as close to the OG as possible, to understand why the party would want to fight them to keep from being railroaded into some vague higher powers agenda.
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Apr 21, 2020 19:02
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Beefstew posted:As in most video games, dogs prove to be the most deadly enemies. and the best of friends Red is seriously great and I can't wait to control him in 12 years on the playstation 30
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Apr 21, 2020 19:03
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cheetah7071 posted:I think they wanted to have a firm villain who we would defeat in the first act to get a feeling of satisfaction. Sephiroth is out (though Advent Children Seph is still the final boss for extremely unclear reasons), the Shinra president is out because Sephiroth kills him and having the main antagonist get kill stolen would suck, so we got destiny ghosts. I probably would have been happier with a more anthropomorphic villain (or at least one that could talk), but there's definitely reasons they didn't go all in on any of the existing villains. Maybe they could have expanded on Rufus' role and made that rooftop battle the climax? But it'd be weird to have the climax be a solo battle with Cloud. There's just no great options, period. Before the game came out I expected to have a new Jenova fight as the final boss for exactly that reason. Maybe we'd get some kind of Sephiroth duel just because it'd be a hype moment, but the final boss sure as hell wasn't going to be Motorball. I figured having an earlier-than-the-original-game Jenova fight would be a good way to have a big, scary villain to defeat at the end. It would seem I was thinking too small
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Apr 21, 2020 19:03
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Mulva posted:FFVII doesn't need anything, it's a game that already exists and is done. This new game needed something to be it's push, because it's not VII. I disagree with this. FF7 was a game clearly defined by the limitations of it's time. Revisiting it today feels like a proof of concept of a better, fuller game.This can be easily proved by seeing at how fleshed out parts of the remake feel compared to the skeleton of the original game. Wall-market, personal characterizations, drastically improved battle system, more alive setting, basically all of the things that people agree are great about this game could and should also exist in a more faithful remake. The ending give the remakes creators license to add content that is more like the stupid nonsense fake ghosts that exists in the ending. An ending that many people here agree was poorly executed, even if they like the end result of more narratively uncertain sequels. My worry is that the additions made in the forthcoming games will be far more like the ending, incoherent mess with unclear character motivation and poor design. If the major additions in this game had been more confidently handled I would be a lot more comfortable with more major additions in future games. As is I think it's way more likely we get future games that are more like kingdom hearts bullshit then even this game was.
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Apr 21, 2020 19:04
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Necrothatcher posted:He gets stabbed exactly like Aeris by the same guy with the same sword. This is really weird to bring up because you and I and everyone both know that the only thing similar between those scenes is that "person gets stabbed with the same sword." They are not visually, thematically, or cinematically similar. The pacing of the scene, the actual action of the stab, the relative positions of the stabber and stabee - these are all incredibly different and it's super disingenuous to say that it was the exact same event. Yeah, he got stabbed. That's it. You really don't need to compare it inappropriately to The Iconic Stabbing.
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Apr 21, 2020 19:05
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Caidin posted:They are constant harassing force that bother florists, hurt your friends, run interference critical to the destruction of your new home and also keep Hojo from telling Cloud something very interesting. You're right, but even a little more clarity would have helped. In the finale of the game - what should be the emotional and narrative climax - I'm fighting some giant purple monster I've never seen before. What is it? What does it want? Where am I? What am I supposed to get out of this? These are not questions that should be asked at the end of a story. e: and yes, I know it's not the end of THE story, but it's the end of A story. Necrothatcher fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Apr 21, 2020 |
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Apr 21, 2020 19:07
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Harrow posted:I think you've brought that "key points getting ignored" thing up before (maybe that was someone else though, it's been a long couple days). What are you referring to? Honestly I'm just curious what you're seeing on either side that we tend to be talking past.
And it basically just keeps happening on a loop. Someone will dislike the ending and post about it; posters will engage them; the same points will be brought up and relitigated without either side of the discussion budging; it will get boring, and so people get flippant about the entire thing; somebody will come in and drop a hot take about how now it's about the CULTURE WAR; then there will be a brief cooldown period and it will start anew.
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Apr 21, 2020 19:10
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Love it or hate it, I think the game is extremely explicit about what they are and what they're doing.
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Apr 21, 2020 19:10
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Necrothatcher posted:Part of the problem with destiny ghosts as antagonists is that it's never defined exactly what they want to achieve. There's this nebulous sense of them preserving fate, but to what end? Plus you can't really emotionally identify with the desires of unknowable destiny ghosts. Most of that goes for Sephiroth in this game too. I mean, the game tells you that they're manifestations of the planet's will, and that they're enforcing a pre-ordained course of events. The "flashback" (flashforward?) snippets they give characters makes it clear that the course of events is the original FFVII timeline. At least for a player who knows the original VII story, it's not hard to extrapolate that the planet is trying to make sure that the course of events where Sephiroth is defeated and Meteor is destroyed without wiping out all life on the planet comes to pass. For new players, the game gives some motivation in Barret's line about, "if we're headed for a bleak future, they're going to make sure it happens?" The game has been hammering that Shinra is killing the planet and that we've got this supersoldier psycho rampaging around, so presumably the audience is meant to think that defeating the ghosts is necessary to save the world.
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Apr 21, 2020 19:12
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The Puppy Bowl posted:basically all of the things that people agree are great about this game could and should also exist in a more faithful remake. Counter-point: Everyone at Square thinks that it'd be boring to make it, so it can't actually exist in a more faithful remake because nobody would ever make that game. So here we are, they do something new or they do nothing. If you want nothing, that's cool. Otherwise the only thing on the table is them going buckwild, but that's the only thing that gets them hard at this point. So there has to be something new to drive the plot, because otherwise nobody is bothering to make the game. Like poo poo, as someone who has thrown dozens of mods into Morrowind to quality of life that thing and make it better to play in even 2020, I'm perfectly ok with the idea of "Just do the old thing but better". I'm actively jazzed about something new, but I don't actively hate the idea of just the old thing but better. But the thing is that the crew at Square has been fairly open for years that they aren't about that. That's how you get your Crisis Core's and your Advent Children's and Before Crisis and Crisis of Dirge of Tomorrow or whatever the gently caress. They just want to go wild. So at a certain point it's like....here's the reality. You get the passion, which is what makes 95% of this game great to basically everyone, but you have to take the 5% of weird bullshit. Or you get nothing, at all. That's what the wild ride is, and you are on or off. You can of course talk about why you are off or what gets you to jump on with both feet, but it's not stopping the ride either way. homeless snail posted:Someone probably would have made the game anyway, Square isn't not going to make extremely profitable video game. It just would have been a lovely cash in from CC2, and not a love affair from much of the principals behind the original I mean by all accounts they canceled that game, which is one of the reasons this one took so long. They quite literally won't just make the cheap cash in if it's not a project of love and quality. Mulva fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Apr 21, 2020 |
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Apr 21, 2020 19:13
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Someone probably would have made the game anyway, Square isn't not going to make extremely profitable video game. It just would have been a lovely cash in from CC2, and not a love affair from much of the principals behind the original
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Apr 21, 2020 19:15
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guts and bolts posted:
Okay cool, then we're in agreement. I've been getting kind of frustrated with the framing that people who don't like the ending must necessarily be inflexible purists (to put it more kindly than I think some have) rather than just, y'know, having other reasons for not liking a thing. Maybe it's because I'm still feeling conflicted between liking and disliking it and working it out but I'm sensitive to being dismissive of either take. I think I should probably just make a deal with myself not to engage in discussions on that subject for a week or so because I think I'm just repeating myself and it's not helping me or anyone else work out how we feel about the story.
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Apr 21, 2020 19:18
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Necrothatcher posted:You're right, but even a little more clarity would have helped. Um, well... Red tells you what it is and what it wants, Where are you is a reasonable question but I've become very used to final boss fight dimensions over the years so the fine details there don't especially matter to me. What am I supposed to get out of this? I feel the intentions the developers intended are clear, the story is now open to more major change. And also I got to beat the spectral piss out of the time ghosts, so that was mildly cathartic. The party themselves can be satisfied that whatever they do next will be at the whim of at least one less puppet master. Caidin fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Apr 21, 2020 |
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Apr 21, 2020 19:22
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guts and bolts posted:And it basically just keeps happening on a loop. Someone will dislike the ending and post about it; posters will engage them; the same points will be brought up and relitigated without either side of the discussion budging; it will get boring, and so people get flippant about the entire thing; somebody will come in and drop a hot take about how now it's about the CULTURE WAR; then there will be a brief cooldown period and it will start anew.
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Apr 21, 2020 19:24
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OK so I finished the game last night and I did not kill any whispers. I saw no indication that the whispers had all been defeated and were never coming back and everyone itt keeps insisting that we killed them all off. When and where did this take place? The 3 main party stand-in demon things and the huge demon behind them were not whispers. What am I missing here?
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Apr 21, 2020 19:25
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Elephant Ambush posted:OK so I finished the game last night and I did not kill any whispers. I saw no indication that the whispers had all been defeated and were never coming back and everyone itt keeps insisting that we killed them all off. When and where did this take place? The 3 main party stand-in demon things and the huge demon behind them were not whispers. What am I missing here? ... The bosses are literally called "Whispers." That is their name. They are Whispers. If you somehow missed the bosses literally being Whispers that is on you.
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Apr 21, 2020 19:26
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