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How are u posted:If you worked within the system and built power within the system (Virginia model) then nobody could write you off. You are instead choosing to stand outside the system and shout "the system is bullshit, I will not be held hostage! You have no claim to my vote!" and are then angry when the people inside the system who are doing the hard work write you off as a crank. The leftists did not choose to exit the party, the Democrats booted them out when the party establishment coalesced around a rapist that has close ties to white supremacists as their chosen candidate.
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May 5, 2020 19:20
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I have a dream that my four children will one day work within the system using the virginia model
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May 5, 2020 19:20
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Pomp posted:I have a dream that my four children will one day work within the system using the virginia model Virginia: Not Just For Lovers
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May 5, 2020 19:22
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How are u posted:I'm not trying to convince the Bernie or Bust crowd to vote D either. I'll continue to happily explain why voting (D) is the right thing to do in this election, but I certainly have no expectation that I'm going to convince a Something Awful Bernie or Buster over the internet to do the right thing. why are you doing this here then and not going into conservative spaces to convince them to vote for Biden, are you calling and texting for Biden? Are you working to get him elected or was this post just a high minded reinterpretation of your capitulation to a stagnant status quo and inaction? I've already pointed out that unlike in 2016, this antipathy toward the Dem nominee among prior supporters of the party seems to be extending well into the irl world, and in fact the only real supporters of Biden or people enthusiastically behind him I have found are all online. Others have shared this experience. These are things being handwaved away by the centrists like the Obama to Trump bloc of voters, but it's something that can potentially deliver another humiliating defeat. You need to be working harder to drum up real world enthusiasm for you candidate.
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May 5, 2020 19:22
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VitalSigns posted:If you're arguing neither of them are worth voting for then okay maybe, but Xombie explicitly said he is planning to vote for Joe Biden so handwringing from him about platforming white supremacists is pretty lol, he is obviously fine with it or at least doesn't consider it disqualifying Jesse Ventura doesn't need to have certain views or history to be disqualified for me as an option. He isn't going to win even if he does run. Which I keep getting told, he is not. He deserves to get scrutinized for his actual history every bit as much as Biden if he's being discussed as a potential presidential winner.
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May 5, 2020 19:22
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Pomp posted:help i'm trans how do I build power within a system that barely sometimes recognizes I exist You are quoting me talking about the Virginia model, in which a trans woman (Danic Roem) is one of the great examples of the strategy working. Is that not encouraging? That seems like a fantastic step forward to me.
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May 5, 2020 19:22
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Epic High Five posted:You need to be working harder to drum up real world enthusiasm for you candidate. Biden isn't my candidate, I'll be voting Bernie in my primary as soon as I get my absentee ballot. I am not excited about Biden being president, but he'd be better in every way than Trump.
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May 5, 2020 19:24
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the party has made the explicit decision to shake off the left and send them packing in favor of grim fiscal austerity and laughable "meritocratic disruptive innovative solutions" that got us all here in the first place. The left knows this and is acting accordingly, the center knows this and is acting accordingly. Any time spent trying to scold the left into coming on board is time wasted, you need to be coordinating with the Lincoln Project or Third Way to bring fiscal conservatives on board, that's the plan, get on the phones.
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May 5, 2020 19:24
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We tried working politely in the system and that was Bernie Sanders. Turns out that doesn't work!
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May 5, 2020 19:25
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Xombie posted:Jesse Ventura doesn't need to have certain views or history to be disqualified for me as an option. He isn't going to win even if he does run. Which I keep getting told, he is not. Then your actual argument against Jesse Ventura is that he'll never win, fine, that makes way more sense than what you were saying before. You obviously don't mind any of the other poo poo you brought up, if Jesse could win (in other words if he were the presumptive Democratic nominee) then you'd vote for him because he has the all-important D by his name, yeah?
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May 5, 2020 19:26
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Pomp posted:I have a dream that my four children will one day work within the system using the virginia model Ok, so 20 years of Democratic neoliberalism, and we've managed to unfuck Virginia. So in order to unfuck the rest of the country, state by state, at 20 years a pop will take *tikka takka tikka tokka* a thousand year neoliberal reich...I mean regime. But good job guys! Progress!
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May 5, 2020 19:26
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Let’s all take the Shut The gently caress Up About Jesse Ventura Challenge 2020 please, he was an amusing meme that clearly broke a few liberals’ brains and now he’s dead and we can go back to pretending Howie Hawkins is going to lead the Greens to their stirring 5+% victory.
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May 5, 2020 19:26
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How are u posted:I don't have any reason to re-litigate the primary because as far as I can see Bernie lost it fair and square. I'm not interested in conspiracy theories and don't believe that the DNC and Obama were secret puppetmasters. How are u posted:Biden isn't my candidate, I'll be voting Bernie in my primary as soon as I get my absentee ballot. I am not excited about Biden being president, but he'd be better in every way than Trump. Bernie lost, either Biden's your candidate or you're just another SA extremely online Bernie-or-Buster.
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May 5, 2020 19:27
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How are u posted:You are quoting me talking about the Virginia model, in which a trans woman (Danic Roem) is one of the great examples of the strategy working. Is that not encouraging? That seems like a fantastic step forward to me. cool so what about the countless homeless queers, the queers who have no access to care, the queers excluded from the workforce. Where's their progress?
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May 5, 2020 19:28
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Eminai posted:Bernie lost, either Biden's your candidate or you're just another SA extremely online Bernie-or-Buster. He apparently missed the memo where Bernie said to vote for Biden.
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May 5, 2020 19:28
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:We tried working politely in the system and that was Bernie Sanders. No, you waged a gleeful war against centrism and the legacy of Barack Obama (not arguing in their favor, but that's what you were doing), chanted "bend the knee, libs", and gambled that your 30% bloc of Bernie voters could win the Presidential nomination from within while the centrists were all disarrayed. That is not the Virginia model.
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May 5, 2020 19:28
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How are u posted:Biden isn't my candidate, I'll be voting Bernie in my primary as soon as I get my absentee ballot. I am not excited about Biden being president, but he'd be better in every way than Trump. Surely not every way. Some ways, yes. But Biden's election would also make it harder to get even a progressive Democrat nominated for president in 2024, and compared to Trump Biden would get much less scrutiny and opposition from other Democrats and the liberal media. It would have significant ramifications on the role of the progressive/left wing of the Democratic party, many of them dire. Say Biden's better than Trump. Sure, probably true. But by refusing to overlook the negative consequences of a Biden victory, we make ourselves stupid and unprepared for his probable presidency
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May 5, 2020 19:29
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Pomp posted:I have a dream that my four children will one day work within the system using the virginia model I have a dream that after I give the fascists the country, the Revolution will finally occur. Wait why am I against the wall now that it occurred
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May 5, 2020 19:29
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How are u posted:No, you waged a gleeful war against centrism and the legacy of Barack Obama (not arguing in their favor, but that's what you were doing), chanted "bend the knee, libs", and gambled that your 30% bloc of Bernie voters could win the Presidential nomination from within while the centrists were all disarrayed. please stop saying virginia model
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May 5, 2020 19:29
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Surely not every way. Some ways, yes. But Biden's election would also make it harder to get even a progressive Democrat nominated for president in 2024 I disagree. I see no reason why this would be the case. I especially see no reason why it would be easier to nominate somebody progressive if Trump gets 4 more years.
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May 5, 2020 19:30
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How are u posted:No, you waged a gleeful war against centrism and the legacy of Barack Obama (not arguing in their favor, but that's what you were doing), chanted "bend the knee, libs", and gambled that your 30% bloc of Bernie voters could win the Presidential nomination from within while the centrists were all disarrayed. So the problem is that we just weren't decorous enough as we were being kneed in the balls?
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May 5, 2020 19:30
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How are u posted:Honestly I'm becoming more and more down with y'all doing your protest vote. Do it, feel good, and if things go the way I hope they do then we win a huge victory without you and can then safely write you off while the actual progressives follow the Virginia model and do the hard work to make the nation and the world better off. What in god's name do you think is going to happen under Biden that "makes the nation and world better off"? The "world" part of that equation is unequivocally nonsense. There is not a single sane reason to think a Biden presidency would have a positive impact on the world. Everything about Biden's history and platform indicates that he will be extremely harmful in terms of foreign policy and will do nothing meaningful for climate change. I can at least conceptually understanding voting for Biden to limit harm under Trump, but voting for him out of a belief that he will represent any sort of positive change is completely insane. What we've seen in Virginia is Democrats passing some of the positive things Democrats tend to pass, with the most meaningful being things Democrats are generally not opposed to - lifting abortion restrictions and decriminalizing marijuana. Most of the other stuff isn't that meaningful and none of it is significantly tied to peoples' material circumstances. Banning work discrimination based off of LGBT+ status is fine and good but doesn't really matter that much as long as the state is still a Right to Work state (which is notably something that Northram opposed); employers simply need to do what they've always done and have some plausible deniability when they fire someone due to their race/gender/orientation, or rely on the fact that most LGBT+ workers aren't in a position to take discrimination to court). It more or less fits the typical liberal tendency to give legal protections that most working class people can't actually take advantage of. The climate change legislation they passed is also meager and meaningless (and even more meaningless if Republicans take power again and repeal it, which is even more likely if Biden is elected). The thing people need to understand is "progressive" and "not progressive" is not some single measure where certain policy moves you closer to "progressive." It's possible (as is the case with the Democratic Party) to sometimes support policy that offers things like equal status under law or loosens restrictions on harmful things that aren't really a threat to wealthy individuals and businesses (like abortion), while still being directly opposed to most other left-wing policy. Virginia also saw a pathetic minimum wage increase to $9.50/hr, as well as the aforementioned rejection of repealing Right to Work laws. Nothing about the other things passed implies that attitudes towards most other left-wing ideas will change. It is ideologically consistent for rich Democratic stakeholders to be okay with loosening abortion restrictions or decriminalizing marijuana, since those things don't affect their bottom lines. In other words, Democrats can do positive on a handful of issues while still being directly opposed to most other left-wing policy. Literally nothing about something like loosening abortion restrictions or removing confederate statues implies that politicians will also be open to universal healthcare or significant minimum wage increases. It is ideologically consistent for Democrats to have decent views on some issues like those while still being right-wing on most other things. It is not a signal of some broader positive movement.
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May 5, 2020 19:30
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RBA Starblade posted:I have a dream that after I give the fascists the country, the Revolution will finally occur. Extremely cool of you to smugly shitpost at struggling trans people, definitely not disingenuous and certainly sure to win us over to believing that Democrats actually care about us.
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May 5, 2020 19:31
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RBA Starblade posted:I have a dream that after I give the fascists the country, the Revolution will finally occur. Joe Biden is a white supremacist and rapist who will do nothing to protect you from the fascism that will continue to bubble up around your ankles during his presidency. He is going to be a propped up corpse while his handlers loot the country behind him.
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May 5, 2020 19:31
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VitalSigns posted:Then your actual argument against Jesse Ventura is that he'll never win, fine, that makes way more sense than what you were saying before. No, it isn't. That's just the primary reason I personally wouldn't vote for him. The argument was originally about why I thought he's a libertarian. Everyone else kept bringing up his pros and cons vs Biden. quote:You obviously don't mind any of the other poo poo you brought up, You seem to have the idea in your mind that because you vote by a certain ethos, everyone else has to. I don't think that way. I vote a certain way, based on what are the likely outcomes. I don't actually have any interest in making anyone else vote this way. quote:if Jesse could win (in other words if he were the presumptive Democratic nominee) then you'd vote for him because he has the all-important D by his name, yeah? If he were the candidate most likely to beat Trump, and also he was promising student loan forgiveness, I would vote for him. In reality, this isn't what's happening.
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May 5, 2020 19:31
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How are u posted:I disagree. There are good odds that a President Biden would run for re-election in 2024, and of course he'd enjoy an advantage as an incumbent, making it harder for a progressive candidate to get that nomination. What part of that do you see as incorrect?
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May 5, 2020 19:31
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https://assets.documentcloud.org/do...osam&stream=top Hot take: trump gonna lose, bigly No one outside of this forum and twitter cares about the specifics of Biden’s history. What most Americans think is: trump=bad, Biden=Obama’s VP=good America’s ridin for biden Edit: poo poo, thought this was cspam. Probably not as hot a take around these parts Trumps Baby Hands fucked around with this message at 19:34 on May 5, 2020 |
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May 5, 2020 19:32
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How are u posted:No, you waged a gleeful war against centrism and the legacy of Barack Obama (not arguing in their favor, but that's what you were doing), chanted "bend the knee, libs", and gambled that your 30% bloc of Bernie voters could win the Presidential nomination from within while the centrists were all disarrayed. Obama’s legacy was Donald Trump. Why would leftists not fight against that?
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May 5, 2020 19:32
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Pussy Cartel posted:Extremely cool of you to smugly shitpost at struggling trans people, definitely not disingenuous and certainly sure to win us over to believing that Democrats actually care about us. I don't know who Pomp is, I'm just following their lead.
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May 5, 2020 19:32
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:So the problem is that we just weren't decorous enough as we were being kneed in the balls? No. The problem was you thought you could leverage a voting bloc that we discovered is too small to win the biggest prize (presidency) without building on a foundation of winning state and local elections and proving to people that the left can govern and can govern better than anybody else. The problem was going all in on top-down rather than bottom-up.
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May 5, 2020 19:32
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How are u posted:Biden isn't my candidate, I'll be voting Bernie in my primary as soon as I get my absentee ballot. I am not excited about Biden being president, but he'd be better in every way than Trump. Biden is your candidate. You're in this thread defending him as a choice. He is yours and no amount of disingenuous deflection is going to absolve you of the choice you're fronting. Own it, and stop ignoring posts that point out that you're voting for a rapist. Denying it isn't going to make it right. And no amount of negging the left about "why they lost, according to a Decorum Major" is going to endear them to your neoliberal resignation.
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May 5, 2020 19:33
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RBA Starblade posted:I don't know who Pomp is, I'm just following their lead. If you actually read the thread and what people post instead of sniping at everyone to your left, you'd actually have some idea.
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May 5, 2020 19:34
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:So the problem is that we just weren't decorous enough as we were being kneed in the balls? Look, just because they fixed the primary doesn't mean that you can't win an election. It just means you can't win a fair election. What how are u is proposing is that we start poll rigging the same way that the Democrats. That's the system we should be working within, corrupting democracy.
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May 5, 2020 19:34
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even setting aside criticisms of the Virginia model and how somebody within state level politics who shares a lot of my beliefs, Lee Carter, seems conspicuously excluded from all discussion of it despite him being the driving force behind a lot of stuff it takes credit for, if I live in a red state the Dems have given up on, exactly what does this sort of hyper-regionalization toward populations dense with high earning well-graduated people that the Dems have chosen to elevator over labor have to offer me? Or anybody else in areas where concentration of the correct sort of wealth under 8 years of Obama realigned a purple state blue? What about the purple states in that time frame that turned red for similar reasons, such as Florida? Why is there one Virginia but a half dozen single party Dem states that have been downright regressive and yet they maintain significant influence in the party? How are u posted:I disagree. I see no reason why this would be the case. I especially see no reason why it would be easier to nominate somebody progressive if Trump gets 4 more years. A tepid pro-austerity centrist in 2008-2016 couldn't even get another tepid pro-austerity centrist elected in 2016 lol, how's it going to be a herald of a progressive shift when so much approved policy of the party is to empower reactionaries and billionaires and box out anybody to their left? Why did orgs that withered trying to work with Obama then flourish after working against Trump?
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May 5, 2020 19:34
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How are u posted:No, you waged a gleeful war against centrism and the legacy of Barack Obama (not arguing in their favor, but that's what you were doing), chanted "bend the knee, libs", and gambled that your 30% bloc of Bernie voters could win the Presidential nomination from within while the centrists were all disarrayed. Alas, alas! If only we laid prostrate at the feet of Great Obama! If only we admitted that, sure, our imperalist warmongers could still kill all the brown people that wanted! If only we agreed to the insurance companies' demands that there could be no medical care without first lining their pockets. Or to the prison industrial complex that black people should still be incarcerated in obscene numbers so they could suck the last bit of profits out of our sweat and blood. oh wait elizabeth warren did exactly that and she loving bombed everywhere, including her own home fuckin state lmao
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May 5, 2020 19:34
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Civilized Fishbot posted:There are good odds that a President Biden would run for re-election in 2024, and of course he'd enjoy an advantage as an incumbent, making it harder for a progressive candidate to get that nomination. What part of that do you see as incorrect? Personally I doubt that Biden is able to make it through a single 4 year term. I figure his VP will likely be President before 2024. Even if not, I don't think an 82 year old man is going to be running again.
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May 5, 2020 19:36
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Trumps Baby Hands posted:
Excited for America’s prospects.
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May 5, 2020 19:36
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VitalSigns posted:No it isn't, I hope they both lose, now what Both lose isn't an option. He's not splitting some hair it's very clear what he's doing: He's not trying to tell people how to vote but he's also not letting people get off with bullshit hand-waiving away that wanting Biden to lose isn't also wanting Trump to win. In other words: he's not telling you what to do but he's calling bullshit on people trying to get out of owning the implications of their position. VitalSigns posted:Biden gave Strom Thurmond's eulogy, and MSNBC also hosted Alex Jones Giving a eulogy for someone is not platforming them... that word means something and is bad for a specific reason, it's not just generic shorthand for  And honestly I got the impression the motivation wasn't so different from the other point: pointing out disingenuous hyperbolic rhetoric for what it is.
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May 5, 2020 19:38
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Pussy Cartel posted:If you actually read the thread and what people post instead of sniping at everyone to your left, you'd actually have some idea. I'm under no illusion that most of you are more left than me at this point, but I also don't think it matters who you are if you're advancing the argument to usher in fascism so communism can somehow overthrow it. 10% chance to stop the apocalypse, right? quote:In other words: he's not telling you what to do but he's calling bullshit on people trying to get out of owning the implications of their position. Exactly.
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May 5, 2020 19:39
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Alas, alas! If only we laid prostrate at the feet of Great Obama! If only we admitted that, sure, our imperalist warmongers could still kill all the brown people that wanted! If only we agreed to the insurance companies' demands that there could be no medical care without first lining their pockets. Or to the prison industrial complex that black people should still be incarcerated in obscene numbers so they could suck the last bit of profits out of our sweat and blood. And the guy whose entire campaign was "I was Obama's VP, I represent stability and a return to responsible governance" won it all. I have a lot of problems with Obama's administration, but running against his legacy clearly was not the winning strategy in this primary!
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May 5, 2020 19:39
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