|
Trabisnikof posted:So for these polls to be good for Biden you have to assume that this race will be less dynamic than 2016 and that there is less risk of Biden having negative news cycles than Hillary. To me, that runs counter to the premise that Hillary was uniquely widely hated, since that would have been backed into early polling. No one who likes Rush Limbaugh ever said they were voting for Hillary. so it hasn't been normalized at all, and trump has a massive pile of fresh ammo he can just fire at the biden campaign all day it's going to be a slaughter
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 22:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 05:31 |
|
|
How are u posted:You are quoting me talking about the Virginia model, in which a trans woman (Danic Roem) is one of the great examples of the strategy working. Is that not encouraging? That seems like a fantastic step forward to me. This is the worst response to the question of "How do I work in the system when the system is hostile to me" and the fact that "How are u" doesn't get why is a big problem with the position they take. Danica is great, she does good work, I like her positions, none of this is an attack on her, but she's a token being held up by the system just so people can say "look, we have one trans person. How can you say the system is hostile to you when we have one person?". She's a respectability politics success story. She's a journalist who was invited in by the party to run against an incumbent Republican who made their name on anti-LGBTQ legislature and her big issue is transportation and highways. She doesn't challenge authority, she's non-threatening, and presents herself as a middle class white liberal. She does good work, she also represents that the system only allows for so much deviation from the norm. A handful of people at the state level while having no federal representation and not having full rights under federal law isn't a success story, it's an example of how the US government has often loved to give privilege to a select few instead of giving rights to all. And if you're going to tell me "these things take time" be ready to explain why trans people, or anyone, has to prove to the system that they deserve full rights. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 22:10 on May 5, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 22:08
|
|
|
Xombie posted:Is the point here that if Biden wins he'll normalize this? Because either Trump or Biden are going to win. Wouldn't Trump equally normalize it? Xombie posted:Putting Clinton as a prominent DNC speaker and having him on the campaign trail for Hillary isn't saying "rapist leaders are ok"? wayback machine activate! Xombie posted:My entire point is that, to people who are hand-wringing over Kavanaugh's voting record, that someone with his voting record was always going to be on the court. 2018: Putting a rapist on the supreme court is a terrible thing and the party doing something so far beyond the norms of today will lose the support of women 2020: Whaaat supporting rapists, that's soooo bipartisan, Democrats and Republicans do it all the tiiiiiime, it doesn't maaaaatter, it's always been the norrrrrrm VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 22:18 on May 5, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 22:14
|
|
Yinlock posted:joe biden is more of a direct attack against the left than an actual candidate. they saw that someone who wasn't far-right might actually get nominated and in response forced in the most odious and lovely candidate possible as if to say "gently caress you, we call the shots here" Who forced him in? The voters? Biden had the best chance of the moderate candidates before and after SC. He had the highest number of expected delegates. No one was forced to vote for Biden just because some other candidates dropped out.
|
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 22:18
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:Who forced him in? The voters? The DNC and the corporate media
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 22:20
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:Who forced him in? The voters? Biden had the best chance of the moderate candidates before and after SC. He had the highest number of expected delegates. No one was forced to vote for Biden just because some other candidates dropped out. The voters in the party who are on the right, which means Biden was very much them saying they don't want the left to have a home in the party. Democrats invited in Never Trumpers, they all worked together to vote Biden, and they don't agree with the left. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-never-trumpers-crashed-the-democratic-party/
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 22:21
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:Who forced him in? The voters? Biden had the best chance of the moderate candidates before and after SC. He had the highest number of expected delegates. No one was forced to vote for Biden just because some other candidates dropped out. Do you think the voters still would have chosen Biden?
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 22:27
|
|
|
MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Let's suppose for a moment that just after SC, all the things the party did to push Biden over the line, they did for Bernie instead. You have Obama calling up Buttigieg and Klobuchar encouraging them to drop out and endorse Bernie and they do it, you have the various liberal media institutions manufacturing consent for Bernie, and hand-wringing about toxic Biden supporters online, Hillary crowing about how no one likes Biden or whatever the gently caress - basically all the disingenuous poo poo that aided Biden, goes Bernie's way instead. For some reason. Even if you don't believe that the point still stands that Biden should be interpreted as an attack on the left. Can it be from the voters? Sure, it means that the majority of democratic voters are on the liberal right and center and are absolutely fine with a candidate who alienates anyone in the left wing of the party. They don't want the left, they don't think they need the left, and they don't like our ideas. They want us to gently caress off so they shouldn't be mad that we hosed off.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 22:32
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:Even if you don't believe that the point still stands that Biden should be interpreted as an attack on the left. Can it be from the voters? Sure, it means that the majority of democratic voters are on the liberal right and center and are absolutely fine with a candidate who alienates anyone in the left wing of the party. They don't want the left, they don't think they need the left, and they don't like our ideas. They want us to gently caress off so they shouldn't be mad that we hosed off. Excuse me but Biden or rather whoever runs his social media accounts said of the left that he sees you and hears you and needs you in November. What else do you want?
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 22:35
|
|
|
remember when the media was hyping some grand compromise right before the debate of lowering the medicare age 5 years and I dunno something about free school with loads of means testing, then he never mentioned it again lmao
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 22:36
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:Even if you don't believe that the point still stands that Biden should be interpreted as an attack on the left. Can it be from the voters? Sure, it means that the majority of democratic voters are on the liberal right and center and are absolutely fine with a candidate who alienates anyone in the left wing of the party. They don't want the left, they don't think they need the left, and they don't like our ideas. They want us to gently caress off so they shouldn't be mad that we hosed off.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 22:38
|
|
|
earlier, someone was talking about how giving your vote away automatically and without question leaves you as unworthy of pursuit by dems, and I think that's borne out by swing voters everything centrists compromise is supposedly in service to chasing and wooing swing voters, voters that don't regularly vote for dems but instead swap back and forth meanwhile, leftists are viewed as having no place to go, so we're completely ignored wonder why that is? 
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 22:39
|
|
|
MSDOS KAPITAL posted:The voters seem to align with Sanders' platform more than they align with Biden's, but mostly either thought Biden would do those things too, or prioritized electability over policy. I mean, yeah. I'm just crafting my message for people who think manufactured consent isn't real so they don't get lost in the weeds and ignore the real point. Biden is, no matter how you think he got there, an indicator that the Democratic party does not want the left and does not think it needs the left.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 22:41
|
|
|
Condiv posted:earlier, someone was talking about how giving your vote away automatically and without question leaves you as unworthy of pursuit by dems, and I think that's borne out by swing voters I don't think the left should withhold their vote for Biden because it will move establishment Democrats to the left, or prompt them to pander to the left. That misunderstands establishment Democrats. The left should withhold support from the party for as long as centrist establishment Dems control it, because that's the only way you can hope to either loosen their hold on the party, or drive the party into the dirt altogether so something can replace it.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 22:43
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:I mean, yeah. I'm just crafting my message for people who think manufactured consent isn't real so they don't get lost in the weeds and ignore the real point. Biden is, no matter how you think he got there, an indicator that the Democratic party does not want the left and does not think it needs the left.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 22:44
|
|
|
Uncle Wemus posted:Excuse me but Biden or rather whoever runs his social media accounts said of the left that he sees you and hears you and needs you in November. I hope he can see me because I am doing this as hard as I can. 
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 22:44
|
|
|
a fun game to play with someone who thinks manufactured consent isn't real, and the DNC and the corporate media have no influence over voter behavior, is to ask them what they think about Russian influence in 2016
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 22:49
|
|
|
rko posted:Just to underline an important point here, Bernie campaigned hard in several states that Biden ended up winning without campaigning there at all. We knocked on a historic number of doors. Biden won one primary and the former president made a couple phone calls and all that work was erased literally overnight. Exactly. This is why we can't simply "work within the system": capital will never play nice with leftists. Whatever people think of Krystal Ball, she recently had a point when she said that the left should take a page out of the tea party playbook in the sense of their willingness to be seen as crazy bastards to force capitulation to their demands.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 22:51
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:a fun game to play with someone who thinks manufactured consent isn't real, and the DNC and the corporate media have no influence over voter behavior, is to ask them what they think about Russian influence in 2016 I've used this line of reasoning multiple times while debating with liberals and I haven't had a single one offer up a coherent response. Most just ghost the thread entirely afterwards
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 22:54
|
|
MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Let's suppose for a moment that just after SC, all the things the party did to push Biden over the line, they did for Bernie instead. You have Obama calling up Buttigieg and Klobuchar encouraging them to drop out and endorse Bernie and they do it Why would Buttigieg and Klobuchar endorse Bernie when they're more ideologically aligned with Biden? Obama was only useful in telling moderates to do something they should have already done if they were pragmatic. They would have endorsed Biden in time or any other moderate candidate. MSDOS KAPITAL posted:you have the various liberal media institutions manufacturing consent for Bernie, and hand-wringing about toxic Biden supporters online, Hillary crowing about how no one likes Biden or whatever the gently caress - basically all the disingenuous poo poo that aided Biden, goes Bernie's way instead. For some reason. I don't know what manufacturing consent means here, especially when done over the course of a couple days of reporting on a genuinely significant SC victory. Some of Bernie's online supporters were toxic and often proudly so. MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Do you think the voters still would have chosen Biden? Maybe? He's the well liked vice president of a very popular former president. CNN and NYT aren't going to have wall to wall coverage on how Biden is demented and his policies are bad. Lack of that sort of coverage doesn't mean that people were brainwashed to vote Biden over Sanders. Gumball Gumption posted:Even if you don't believe that the point still stands that Biden should be interpreted as an attack on the left. Can it be from the voters? Sure, it means that the majority of democratic voters are on the liberal right and center and are absolutely fine with a candidate who alienates anyone in the left wing of the party. They don't want the left, they don't think they need the left, and they don't like our ideas. They want us to gently caress off so they shouldn't be mad that we hosed off. How could the Democratic voters signal to you that they don't want you and the left to gently caress off, but they just prefer a different candidate? Is your vote for Bernie a sign to moderate dems to gently caress off and evidence you don't think you need them?
|
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:00
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:How could the Democratic voters signal to you that they don't want you and the left to gently caress off, but they just prefer a different candidate? Is your vote for Bernie a sign to moderate dems to gently caress off and evidence you don't think you need them? Because a candidates policy and platform should be representative of what the party cares about and Biden's policy and platform has little that appeals to leftists. They picked a candidate who has nothing for the left so they don't need us. Edit: wait, I totally misread this. As far as how they could indicate that? Preferably drop Biden because of his history, even without the rape he's damaged goods. But I think that will be considered impossible for some reason so the first thing would be to pick up at least some leftist policies. Universal healthcare is a given. That has to be the first thing and would be a real attempt at creating a bridge. It's barely a leftist position, it's supported by liberal socialists around the world and they're not exactly far left. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 23:11 on May 5, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:06
|
|
|
MSNBC called the Nevada Caucuses a Nazi victory and spent the next few weeks fearmongering about Castro lmao at pretending it was nothing but neutral didactic coverage
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:07
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:How could the Democratic voters signal to you that they don't want you and the left to gently caress off, but they just prefer a different candidate? Is your vote for Bernie a sign to moderate dems to gently caress off and evidence you don't think you need them? Yes
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:08
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:This is the worst response to the question of "How do I work in the system when the system is hostile to me" and the fact that "How are u" doesn't get why is a big problem with the position they take. This is a much better response than any I could’ve written to How are u’s point, so I’m glad I got pulled away to make money for my boss. I was way too angry to write anything this coherent. Thanks. Condiv posted:earlier, someone was talking about how giving your vote away automatically and without question leaves you as unworthy of pursuit by dems, and I think that's borne out by swing voters I honestly don’t believe this will work. “Swing voters” are exactly as real as “welfare queens” and are wielded just as cynically by the establishment. In a country where not voting is much more popular than either political party, the rational strategy is activating those voters. Doing so, however, would mean making major concessions to power and eliminating the various systems that create safe blue seats and steady paychecks for the governing class. So instead they focus on a tiny sliver of the electorate that already agrees with their donors and make them the center of every campaign narrative. Unfortunately, Bernie and Corbyn both showed that with your party as your enemy, no amount of effort can bring out enough votes to kick out the establishment. And the Squad’s marginalization (and Lee Carter’s for that matter) demonstrates how there is no level of power at which the establishment won’t freeze out the left. So I guess I hope MSDOS is right and that the answer is making the Democrats so weak that their institutions can’t keep the left from taking power? I’m just hyper skeptical that that will work. I don’t think a left exists that can take that power before the right just moves in and institutes a total world-ending dystopia. So I guess I’m just very cynical and hopeless—and posting through it. Time for a break.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:09
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:<snip>
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:12
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:How could the Democratic voters signal to you that they don't want you and the left to gently caress off, but they just prefer a different candidate? Is your vote for Bernie a sign to moderate dems to gently caress off and evidence you don't think you need them? Most Democratic voters didn't even get to vote, so who knows who they actually prefer. And if they do prefer a racist rapist who wants Republicans in his administration, then yes they should gently caress off and stop pretending they are moderates.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:13
|
|
|
When Biden tells people who have legitimate concerns about him to vote for Trump is that not him saying that he doesn't need their support? Please answer this for me my family is dying.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:16
|
|
|
I just don't get what's controversial about saying the Democratic party has no interest in the left. Even the left most members of the party are capitalists. Bernie is, for all his talk of being a socialist, is a capitalist. It is a party that wishes to preserve capitalism so it's not going to be friendly to those who don't. It's barely friendly to those who want to reform and regulate.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:21
|
|
|
TrixR4kids posted:When Biden tells people who have legitimate concerns about him to vote for Trump is that not him saying that he doesn't need their support? Please answer this for me my family is dying. this has been brought up a ton of times but for some reason nobody has addressed it lmao
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:23
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:I just don't get what's controversial about saying the Democratic party has no interest in the left. Even the left most members of the party are capitalists. Bernie is, for all his talk of being a socialist, is a capitalist. It is a party that wishes to preserve capitalism so it's not going to be friendly to those who don't. It's barely friendly to those who want to reform and regulate. A desperate veneer morality is essential if their goal is to lie to your face and drown the left into pointless discourse against what is an immutable enemy.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:23
|
|
|
obviously my vote for Bernie was a signal that I believe we don't need the votes of "moderates" whose opposition to Bernie is their ideological opposition to poor people getting health care or going to school without getting crushed by debt (as opposed to people who have no problem with these things but merely opposed Bernie because they thought he couldn't win). If I believed we needed those ideological NeverBernie folks to win I would have voted for Elizabeth Warren. If they believed they needed the votes of the left to win, they too would have voted for Elizabeth Warren. They didn't, they voted for Biden because they believe they don't need the left and they can win by finally convincing the moderate Republicans who called Obama a terrorist to vote Democrat, so they can very well go knock on Republican doors and make their appeals to them, and good luck to them.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:24
|
|
|
'Entirely possible that you could definitely take Pennsylvania this time, that's a huge thing, absolutely - but are you gonna get Florida? Are you going to flip anything in the South? Because if those numbers hold up, given how he's got a lock on his base and your base doesn't show up - does anybody really see African-Americans showing up for Biden? Right.' Sincere question for everyone who's defending Biden ITT: how many phones have you rang for him so far in this campaign? How many doors have you knocked? Are you going to do both of those things and more before November? I genuinely don't see how you're going to motivate people to vote for Biden.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:27
|
|
|
They aren't defending Biden, they're defending the Democratic Party. It's completely different.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:32
|
|
|
This is remarkably honest, but doesn't seem like a great attitude for the left to have when trying to broaden the coalition and overcome their ceiling. I think most Democratic voters, even moderate Biden supporters, believe themselves to be good people and don't want to play nice with people telling them to gently caress off. MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Please look up "thought experiment" in a dictionary and get back to me, thanks. I don't see value in trying to prove something else may have happened if the situation was vastly different. Yes, maybe Bernie would have won vs. Biden if Klobuchar and Buttigieg backed him instead. A candidate with the politics of Sanders would probably have a better chance at winning a national election if other politicians and primary candidates had policies more like his and then dropped out and consolidated support behind him. And? TrixR4kids posted:When Biden tells people who have legitimate concerns about him to vote for Trump is that not him saying that he doesn't need their support? Please answer this for me my family is dying. This isn't a defense of Biden's response because he's a bad politician, but what would you have him say or do? Promise that he'll change that position despite his policies being popular enough to win a plurality of votes?
|
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:36
|
|
|
The main motivator is Trump, and the only way you see that not get worse is Trump performing a miracle and creating a vaccine himself. The only other path is if months of Anti-Biden media would work, but even then Trump would have to do everything perfect to fix everything first.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:38
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:This is remarkably honest, but doesn't seem like a great attitude for the left to have when trying to broaden the coalition and overcome their ceiling. I think most Democratic voters, even moderate Biden supporters, believe themselves to be good people and don't want to play nice with people telling them to gently caress off. it is just objectively true that voting for Sanders means I don't believe that the votes of people who oppose healthcare for everyone are necessary to win. If I believed we needed them I would have voted for Warren who was offering them something (ie killing some poors). If they believed they needed leftist votes to win they would have voted for Warren who was offering the left something. They voted for the one guy who offers nothing to anyone except NeverTrump Republicans, so they can make their case to Republicans and good luck to em. I don't know what this simple and obvious observation has to do with the ability of the left to win converts, if someone sees my vote and gets so offended that they won't listen to anything I say after that, there isn't really anything I can do about silly people
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:41
|
|
|
How are u posted:https://joebiden.com/lgbtq/ A lot of this is worded in the same weasel language a lot of democratic policies are. "access to healthcare", for example, sounds great but doesn't mean anything in practice because "there's a plan you can't realistically afford to use, but you manage to swing the premiums" is technically accessible health care. "Protect" and "support", too; how does Joe plan on doing either of those things? Why should I believe him given his history of being against something as simple as same sex marriage?
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:43
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:This is remarkably honest, but doesn't seem like a great attitude for the left to have when trying to broaden the coalition and overcome their ceiling. I think most Democratic voters, even moderate Biden supporters, believe themselves to be good people and don't want to play nice with people telling them to gently caress off. lmao at the last paragraph being a huge self-own on the first one so you agree that voting for Biden is telling everyone else to gently caress off!
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:44
|
|
|
MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Well, establishment centrists aren't going to chase after leftist votes no matter what, because you can't chase leftist votes and serve the interests of the capitalist class. I don't quite agree with that. What was The New Deal, if not a segment of capital saying "I guess we need to do some socialism before it's forced onto us"? I don't think we're at that point in the near future, but it's entirely possible for capitalists to peel off significant leftist votes. I mean, most people on the left just want M4A and a Green New Deal that basically represent the status quo in plenty of existing capitalist countries. Of course that assumes you're thinking of the left in the broader sense of "Bernie Sanders/AOC supporters" rather than "only the complete abolition of capital will suffice", but regardless of terminology those referenced policies and similar will win over most of the American left quartile.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 05:31 |
|
|
QueenOfTheEvening posted:A lot of this is worded in the same weasel language a lot of democratic policies are. "access to healthcare", for example, sounds great but doesn't mean anything in practice because "there's a plan you can't realistically afford to use, but you manage to swing the premiums" is technically accessible health care. "Protect" and "support", too; how does Joe plan on doing either of those things? Why should I believe him given his history of being against something as simple as same sex marriage? Why would you trust anything a documented plagiarist and liar tells you? He slandered the person who hit and killed his wife and child in a car accident for decades.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2020 23:46
|
|