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Epic High Five posted:Bernie people proved themselves more loyal to the party than losing candidate supporters typically are this is why they went all out with the bernie bro crap, they counted on them bowing their heads and going to vote for the D candidate again hopefully this time they'll stay the gently caress home or at least vote third party/just downballot where appropriate
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May 6, 2020 20:05
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TyrantWD posted:No there wasn't. Hillary was the devil incarnate around this point in 2016. This thread loves shifting goalposts and pretending that this new awful thing is their breaking point and that they were endlessly patient and even accepting of that old awful thing, but this new thing is a step too far. Never-Hillary was as big here as anywhere else on the internet - especially around this point when everyone was convinced Hillary was cheating to win the primaries and doing delegate math was everyone's favorite game. nah D&D was totally in the tank for Hillary in 2016 "Post The Map!"
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May 6, 2020 20:06
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TyrantWD posted:No there wasn't. Hillary was the devil incarnate around this point in 2016. This thread loves shifting goalposts and pretending that this new awful thing is their breaking point and that they were endlessly patient and even accepting of that old awful thing, but this new thing is a step too far. Never-Hillary was as big here as anywhere else on the internet - especially around this point when everyone was convinced Hillary was cheating to win the primaries and doing delegate math was everyone's favorite game. I tried to crunch the numbers but got a divide by zero error lmao There probably weren't as many as Bernie superfans but I know they were around. I know this because I was one of them. Then she ate poo poo, I went into a month long depression, and emerged no longer willing to back these huge losers who have done nothing but gently caress things up and lose for my entire life. It's been wonderfully liberating, no longer staking my mental health to these morons. This time last year I would've voted for Warren, but not anymore. I can't think of a single reason anybody they'd replace Biden with would try to earn my vote so I don't see that happening. When I say they should replace him I mean that if I were them and I were trying to win, that's what I'd do.
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May 6, 2020 20:08
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-Blackadder- posted:I haven't really been following politics for the last few years so I'm more asking a question than making any argument, but I remember we weren't hilary fans four years ago either, I was personally not big on her racism. Assuming you're being genuine, the issue is that the Democrats moving right is what's gotten us into the catastrophically bad situation we're in right now; Democrats are nearly identical to Republicans economically and the parties use social issues as their wedge, except Dems will also allow socially-conservative people power in the party too, so things stay terrible on that front as well until the issue is forced and progress is agonizingly slow and prone to massive setbacks. This is not supposition, these are facts. It is also a fact that Democrats view the left, along with marginalized groups, as their hostages effectively, since the Republicans are worse and such an active threat that there's no one else to vote for besides the Dems. This allows them to keep compromising rightward in hopes of expanding their base, becoming more and more like the same people they use to terrify their base into submission. This effectively guarantees that things can only ever get worse. Thus, the logic is that, if the left and such don't vote for the Dems, combined with how Republican voters are just going to vote for the real Republican rather than a Democrat pretending to be one (or even a Republican with a D next to their name) and "swing voters" essentially being a myth with how few there actually are, it will demonstrate to the Democrats that they cannot win if they keep moving right and force them to either actually do good things or die out. The problem is that the Democrats are immune to logic here, because winning is not their primary goal; the people funding them benefit more from right-wing policy, and liberalism only compromises right, not left. Their real jobs, as far as it matters, require them to ignore everything stated above, so they will never, ever come to the conclusion that it's their fault they lost, and will always respond by moving even further right, while blaming the left for their losses and using it as an excuse to write them off, even if this is blatantly contradictory to reality; we saw this in 2016, after all, where more Bernie voters supported Hillary than Hillary supporters supported Obama in 2008 (hell, Hillary's 2008 campaign radicalized enough of her supporters through the racist propaganda it spread that they became a proto-alt-right and were among some of Trump's loudest supporters in 2016), and her loss mostly came down to lovely campaigning and failing to turn out her own base, among other things. Despite this, for the past four years "Bernie Bros" have been their punching bag they blame for their loss, and they're already preemptively doing the same for 2020 as well. Which makes sense, from a completely amoral perspective; they know that Bernie voters did support them despite all the abuse hurled their way, as the numbers show, so it's "safe" to continue doing so rather than accepting the blame for their faults. This strategy doesn't even have to change if left-leaning people do abandon them; the excuses they were already going to use just gain a grain of truth. Of course, this reality is not a particularly motivating reason to continue supporting the Democrats. One could even reasonably argue that it's immoral to do so, because they bear just as much, if not more, responsibility for the state our country is in now as the Republicans, and voting for them just enables them to continue exploiting people, making it more important to not support them. Of course, from there people start getting into arguments of what to do next, whether it's possible to do it, and what would actually even happen if that were achieved, and no one on either side is going to be convinced of the other because people who want to keep voting for the Democrats anyway will insist that this strategy would lead to nothing but complete Republican control, people on the other side will point out that staying the course effectively guarantees that things keep getting worse and leads to climate apocalypse anyway so we may as well try to do something that has a chance of replacing the ossified Democratic leadership with people who might not be terrible, both sides draw on counterfactuals to prove that their future is the one that will happen, the former group calls the latter Republicans and emphasizes how much they don't like Biden either and definitely aren't rape apologists even as they try to shame the latter into voting for him despite him being a rapist, and so on until a different topic gets the thread's attention for a while.
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May 6, 2020 20:10
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VitalSigns posted:nah D&D was totally in the tank for Hillary in 2016 Stop arzying 
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May 6, 2020 20:10
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Doctor Jeep posted:this is why they went all out with the bernie bro crap, they counted on them bowing their heads and going to vote for the D candidate again This is what I will be dedicating my non-local campaigning on pushing in the general! Glad I live on the border of two swing states  Turn out, but vote your conscience, we've gotta shoot this hostage or else neoliberal austerity in response to COVID and the debt ceiling is gonna strip the last of the copper out of the fuckin walls
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May 6, 2020 20:11
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I can earnestly say that I happily voted Hilary even though I supported Bernie. I didn't really like her policies but she wasn't Trump. That failed, I spent the entire time being told it was my fault, and told by the party repeatedly that the only thing I'm good for is being a dirty little vote pig who's gonna vote for blue no matter who. So uh, I'm good. I tried, this isn't the path for what I want, have fun figuring it out. I'm not putting "voted for a rapist" on my soul.
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May 6, 2020 20:13
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Gumball Gumption posted:I can earnestly say that I happily voted Hilary even though I supported Bernie. I didn't really like her policies but she wasn't Trump. Not emptyquoting. I'm not going to put "voted for a rapist" on my soul either. And if the dems want my vote they can loving do something to earn it.
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May 6, 2020 20:16
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is pepsi ok posted:The funniest thing about this is that Trump hasn't even truly started laying in to Biden yet. There's going to come a time in the near future where Biden is getting humiliated on a daily basis and we'll think "so this is the guy they sold their soul for." I seriously can't wait. We got a taste of it at that press conference where Trump was asked about a Biden tweet and responded "he's not writing that. Democratic operatives are writing that. He doesn't know about that tweet. He doesn't know what's going on, or probably where he is."
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May 6, 2020 20:18
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Gumball Gumption posted:I can earnestly say that I happily voted Hilary even though I supported Bernie. I didn't really like her policies but she wasn't Trump. 
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May 6, 2020 20:18
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TyrantWD posted:No there wasn't. Hillary was the devil incarnate around this point in 2016. This is simply not true, there were dozens and dozens of people in here making full-throated defenses of HRC throughout the entire 2016 campaign. We're seven months out, there's like four of you in the entire thread that like Biden, and even then all of the pro-Biden posters come with disclaimers like "I wanted Bernie, but..." or "I know Biden's not good, but..." etc.
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May 6, 2020 20:19
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Jewel Repetition posted:I seriously can't wait. We got a taste of it at that press conference where Trump was asked about a Biden tweet and responded "he's not writing that. Democratic operatives are writing that. He doesn't know about that tweet. He doesn't know what's going on, or probably where he is." "A nice kid with good grades wrote that"
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May 6, 2020 20:22
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:This is simply not true, there were dozens and dozens of people in here making full-throated defenses of HRC throughout the entire 2016 campaign. I can't speak for anyone else but there's definitely a qualitative difference in me personally. In 2016 I voted Bernie in the primary and was never enthusiastic for Hillary but never seriously considered not voting for her when her opponent was Trump and she had Bernie's endorsement. Now in 2020 I'm the creator of the NoJoe toxx Many such cases
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May 6, 2020 20:22
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LeeMajors posted:Stop arzying I know because I was one of those idiots, despite backing Bernie in the primary as a protest vote, I was convinced that she was more electable and that there was no way Trump could win. And I didn't even bother defending Bernie much in D&D because it was so pro-Hillary that there was no point and I expected Bernie to lose the primary anyway. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 20:24 on May 6, 2020 |
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May 6, 2020 20:22
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bobjr posted:I like how to the Biden team promising stuff and wanting to follow through on it is seen as bad and unreasonable They're not promising anything except to make it easier for people whose political ideology is "I want my 401k to go up and if HRC was POTUS we'd be at brunch right now" to ignore what happens to the rest of us. They say it themselves in the article. It's a bunch of old white centrists who have no desire to see the world change or improve in any tangible way for the average person. They offer nothing.
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May 6, 2020 20:25
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TyrantWD posted:No there wasn't. Hillary was the devil incarnate around this point in 2016. This thread loves shifting goalposts and pretending that this new awful thing is their breaking point and that they were endlessly patient and even accepting of that old awful thing, but this new thing is a step too far. Never-Hillary was as big here as anywhere else on the internet - especially around this point when everyone was convinced Hillary was cheating to win the primaries and doing delegate math was everyone's favorite game. c'mon man, there were anti-hillary people, of course there were, but the prevailing mood was pro-hillary, both in d&d and ycs (the c-spam precursor) I remember because I read it all and nodded my head at the very intelligent people who wrote all those big words in support of this iconic lady with some foibles which are easily explained away if you read this 5000 word article that can be summed up with that bill clinton grand jury answer "it depends upon what the definition of the word 'is' is" for gently caress's sake, the only reason c-spam is the way it is today is because all the libs either got banned for their election toxxes or migrated back to d&d and a breathing space was created for left-ish shitposting
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May 6, 2020 20:25
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Hell, I even swallowed a lot of beliefs to vote for Hilary. I was positive she'd drag us into a war with Iran but I was pretty sure Trump would too. I did everything asked of me by the party and the big payoff was that in 2020 when Bernie dropped out everyone got mad because he sucked Biden's dick but had the audacity to not swallow.
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May 6, 2020 20:27
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:This is simply not true, there were dozens and dozens of people in here making full-throated defenses of HRC throughout the entire 2016 campaign. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense, Democrats - meaning, people who are called "liberals" in the US popular nomenclature - are inherently uncertain people who love to hedge their bets, and tend to see the world in shades of gray. And voting for Biden doesn't have to mean that you like him; voting for the lesser evil is a very common and generally accepted way of voting. Most people vote that way, really. This We mention that we prefer Bernie because it makes the vitriol we get in return slightly kinder. Edit: Put a strikethrough on what is, upon reflection, an unfair adjective. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 20:39 on May 6, 2020 |
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May 6, 2020 20:28
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Also I can't loving wait to start hearing about Ukraine again cause Trump just broadcast his playbook for a Biden nomination and the Dems went full speed ahead to rush into it.
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May 6, 2020 20:30
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Doctor Jeep posted:c'mon man, there were anti-hillary people, of course there were, but the prevailing mood was pro-hillary, both in d&d and ycs (the c-spam precursor) I consider YCS to just be a different name for C-SPAM, not even its precursor. But yeah even in YCS if you criticized Hillary too much you would get a bunch of epic sarcastic wonk guys dogpiling you. And god help you if you admitted to voting third party
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May 6, 2020 20:31
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Mellow Seas posted:This melodramatic "I CAN'T HAVE THAT VOTE ON MY SOUL" poo poo is just not how I or most people think about voting. gently caress off, people not wanting to vote for a goddamn rapist isn't people being drama queens.
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May 6, 2020 20:32
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Gumball Gumption posted:I can earnestly say that I happily voted Hilary even though I supported Bernie. I didn't really like her policies but she wasn't Trump. Same here, except I still feel bad for voting for Hillary because I live in California so the compromise wasn't even necessary, it only served to run up the numbers that wound up not mattering because she blew off important swing states. So gently caress it, I basically have a free pass to vote for whoever I want at the top of the ticket, so I'm definitely not putting a segregationist and rapist there; I could get my whole county to vote third-party and it wouldn't come close to making the state go anything but blue. (Hell, the whole county could vote Trump and the state would still be solidly blue and not give Trump a single electoral vote, but obviously that's not an outcome I'd enjoy either even it's effectively meaningless.) At this point, assuming Biden doesn't drop dead before he's even named a VP and we're thus stuck with either him or whatever ghoul he has as a running mate against Trump, then the best possible outcome is probably something like maximum chaos, Trump gets a plurality of the popular vote but loses the electoral college and we see him and the GOP absolutely lose it and possibly finally destroy that thing, along with one or more third parties getting >5% of the vote and thus become eligible for public funding. If nothing else, that latter bit would be nice, and since, as above, I live in one of the safest of safe blue states, I think the best use of my presidential vote is working towards that goal rather than giving a racist child molester and sexual predator another +1; I have absolutely no influence on whether he wins or loses the election, even compared to the average voter. (And in the extremely unlikely scenario that Biden actually does lose California, then that'd just be prove of what an unspeakably awful candidate he is.)
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May 6, 2020 20:34
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:I don't think accelerationism works. The truth is that America is an extremely conservative country and most people are happy enough with conservatives as long as they're not called conservatives. not even remotely true. the conservatives have power and money, so they are able to partition off and otherwise disenfranchise progressive voters, who tend to be gender/sex/religious/racial minorities. couple that with the electoral college handing undue power to rural states who trend conservative and well...
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May 6, 2020 20:34
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The lesser evil in November is not voting for anyone
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May 6, 2020 20:35
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Gumball Gumption posted:I can earnestly say that I happily voted Hilary even though I supported Bernie. I didn't really like her policies but she wasn't Trump. This is almost exactly my experience (and conclusion) as well.
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May 6, 2020 20:35
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Sharkie posted:gently caress off, people not wanting to vote for a goddamn rapist isn't people being drama queens. I wouldn't work for a rapist either, but Democrats are working overtime to make sure both opinions are actually evidence of privilege. Yeah, I guess my job options are limited. Thems the breaks.
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May 6, 2020 20:35
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The vast majority of Americans do not like politicians as a rule, even the ones that they vote for. A politician being popular like Obama was at the start of his first term is extremely rare. This is part of why enthusiasm as a predictive metric for voting isn't very reliable. Voting in presidential elections has hovered between 50-55% since 1972. 2008 was an outlier. Despite Trump's enthusiastic base, they were just as enthusiastic in 2016 and the turnout was still average.
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May 6, 2020 20:36
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TyrantWD posted:That was easier to do when he was an outsider with no record. On economics, he has proven to be pretty much a bog standard Paul Ryan/McConnell establishment ghoul. Do you have any data to support this because as far I as I can tell Trump and his administration is getting absolutely massacred in media daily. This isn't like the past where stories about events like the immigration ban either this is something that impacts absolutely everyone and not even Fox News is able to spin it.
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May 6, 2020 20:36
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If you don't put a hard line on what lesser evil is too far you're going to find yourself just voting for evil. I've voted for the lesser evil. I was sad when the lesser evil lost. I was heartbroken. I'm not lowering myself even more to vote for an even worse "lesser evil" because it's a race to the bottom. It's the mindset of a hostage to try and figure out which form of abuse is going to be the acceptable one.
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May 6, 2020 20:36
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Sharkie posted:gently caress off, people not wanting to vote for a goddamn rapist isn't people being drama queens. Yeah, fair, I'll rescind the "melodramatic" there. Like I said, everybody's vote is their own, so there's no "illegitimate" reason on which to base your decision. I, personally, don't view who I vote for as a reflection on myself, but I respect that other people do.
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May 6, 2020 20:37
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Xombie posted:The vast majority of Americans do not like politicians as a rule, even the ones that they vote for. A politician being popular like Obama was at the start of his first term is extremely rare. This is part of why enthusiasm as a predictive metric for voting isn't very reliable. Voting in presidential elections has hovered between 50-55% since 1972. 2008 was an outlier. Historically, I don't think humanity in general has a positive view of politicians even in democracies but I know they sure as hell wouldn't like going to back to the previous alternatives.
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May 6, 2020 20:37
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quote:At this point, assuming Biden doesn't drop dead before he's even named a VP and we're thus stuck with either him or whatever ghoul he has as a running mate against Trump, then the best possible outcome is probably something like maximum chaos, Trump gets a plurality of the popular vote but loses the electoral college and we see him and the GOP absolutely lose it and possibly finally destroy that thing, along with one or more third parties getting >5% of the vote and thus become eligible for public funding. This would be interesting but I can't think of a way it happens it doesn't lead to them doing so and Trump not leaving office or rewriting some other rules so the third party part doesn't happen, which I guess just makes it even more maximum chaos.
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May 6, 2020 20:38
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Mellow Seas posted:Sure but your sample size is one, and the neoliberal candidate still got more votes and only lost because of a weird distribution. I think the way the public perceives Biden's general lecherous behavior would be through the lens of whatever media they consume. Disaffected republicans would get told day and night that Biden is a rapist, and a socialist. Likely Democrat voters would start to perceive the multiple flaws Biden has and his despotic corruption, not to mention the allegations against him regarding sexual assault, which will be shown alongside the above-mentioned improper public behavior towards all sorts of women and girls. I think you're not taking into account what the media will project onto the mind of the "everyday" people that vote in elections. It will be just like 2016, the Dem candidate has many flaws and the media will highlight them incessantly. It's a match made in heaven, really.
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May 6, 2020 20:38
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:This is simply not true, there were dozens and dozens of people in here making full-throated defenses of HRC throughout the entire 2016 campaign. Doctor Jeep posted:c'mon man, there were anti-hillary people, of course there were, but the prevailing mood was pro-hillary, both in d&d and ycs (the c-spam precursor) After the convention maybe - while there was still a race going on, it was exactly like this. The fact that the race was much closer, and that the DNC were much more actively trying to shut down Bernie made for a pretty bitter primary fight, and concerns about uniting the party - which was mirrored here. There were a ton of posters urging Bernie to fight for the nomination at the convention, and claiming that even if he endorses Hillary there, they are going to stay as Never-Hillary and write in Bernie, and so on and so forth.
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May 6, 2020 20:39
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Gumball Gumption posted:I can earnestly say that I happily voted Hilary even though I supported Bernie. I didn't really like her policies but she wasn't Trump. Ideologically I only disliked Hillary, I was never even close to withholding my vote with her. I was honestly fine with it - she and Bernie had a spirited primary and oh well I guess it's just Clinton's turn. She at least had things attributed to her that weren't all that bad. I dislike her more now than I ever did then and it has more to do with the last 3 years of being blamed for her loss (and her ghoulish tendency to emerge from her cave and poo poo talk Bernie). My best impressions of Biden come from The Onion making memes about him. It's a struggle to find even one positive thing he's done in his extremely long political career, he almost universally has made the wrong decision on every topic and woman he's ever touched.
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May 6, 2020 20:39
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Mellow Seas posted:Yeah, I mean, it makes sense, Democrats - meaning, people who are called "liberals" in the US popular nomenclature - are inherently uncertain people who love to hedge their bets, and tend to see the world in shades of gray. And voting for Biden doesn't have to mean that you like him; voting for the lesser evil is a very common and generally accepted way of voting. Most people vote that way, really. This melodramatic "I CAN'T HAVE THAT VOTE ON MY SOUL" poo poo is just not how I or most people think about voting. But people can vote however and for whomever they want, for whatever reason they want. Voting for the lesser evil being common and accepted is why we have a rapist running against another rapist and people are making excuses for rape and sending death threats to a rape victim and her daughter; we accepted the "lesser evil" and things just got more and more evil, and now having basic human decency is seen as supporting the greater evil. RBA Starblade posted:This would be interesting but I can't think of a way it happens it doesn't lead to them doing so and Trump not leaving office or rewriting some other rules so the third party part doesn't happen, which I guess just makes it even more maximum chaos. If the Republicans actually did a coup because the electoral college overriding the popular vote went against them for once, I'm pretty sure that would outright destroy the country, or at least cause massive riots everywhere. I could see Trump wanting to do that, but I don't think it'd succeed, in large part because the Republicans who'd need to support him would probably be afraid of getting murdered, along with the military and such not supporting it enough to actually back up a coup. Any "rules rewriting" other than something like the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact would require a constitutional amendment, and either route would only be able to take effect after the election's settled; the death of the electoral college would be almost certain, I think, but it would only affect future elections. Or maybe I'm too optimistic and the whole country would suddenly accept that only the popular vote matters this time. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 20:53 on May 6, 2020 |
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May 6, 2020 20:40
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Gumball Gumption posted:If you don't put a hard line on what lesser evil is too far you're going to find yourself just voting for evil. I've voted for the lesser evil. I was sad when the lesser evil lost. I was heartbroken. I'm not lowering myself even more to vote for an even worse "lesser evil" because it's a race to the bottom. It's the mindset of a hostage to try and figure out which form of abuse is going to be the acceptable one. You seen this thread? https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3916038
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May 6, 2020 20:41
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Roland Jones posted:Voting for the lesser evil being common and accepted is why we have a rapist running against another rapist and people are making excuses for rape and sending death threats to a rape victim and her daughter; we accepted the "lesser evil" and things just got more and more evil, and now having basic human decency is seen as supporting the greater evil. Yeah, we've been picking lesser evils for about 240 years. The current result of this experiment is Donald Trump, President of the United States. Maybe it doesn't work.
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May 6, 2020 20:42
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COVID-19 posted:I think the way the public perceives Biden's general lecherous behavior would be through the lens of whatever media they consume. Disaffected republicans would get told day and night that Biden is a rapist, and a socialist. Likely Democrat voters would start to perceive the multiple flaws Biden has and his despotic corruption, not to mention the allegations against him regarding sexual assault, which will be shown alongside the above-mentioned improper public behavior towards all sorts of women and girls.
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May 6, 2020 20:42
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Jewel Repetition posted:You seen this thread? https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3916038 It's a good thread.
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May 6, 2020 20:43
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