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Mellow Seas posted:The US had a massive military presence in Iraq for over a decade and only killed like 3% of the people there, I think if their goal was "genocide" they did a poo poo job of it. "Genocide" means something and it doesn't mean "shittily-executed war against people of a different ethnicity". https://www.genocidewatch.com/yemen
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May 7, 2020 15:44
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Mellow Seas posted:The US had a massive military presence in Iraq for over a decade and only killed like 3% of the people there, I think if their goal was "genocide" they did a poo poo job of it. "Genocide" means something and it doesn't mean "shittily-executed war against people of a different ethnicity". Mellow Seas posted:I think if their goal was "genocide" they did a poo poo job of it.
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May 7, 2020 15:45
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Mellow Seas posted:See, "Biden supported invasion of Iraq" is a fact. "Biden supported disastrous invasion of Iraq that killed hundreds of thousands", pretty much a fact, although "disastrous" is more of a universally-shared opinion. "Biden wanted a genocide of the Iraqi people" is an analysis, one you probably have good reasons for putting forth, but it's not a fact, because Joe Biden never said he wanted genocide in Iraq, and I sincerely doubt he's ever expressed a desire for any genocide, ever. Also, no genocides have been carried out in Iraq, despite the factual mass death. the Iraq civil war and COIN would like some words with your definition of genocide. Biden wanted a war and while in his heart of hearts he may hav envisioned gulf war 1; he’s a loving rube if that shouldn’t be in charge of a Denny’s if he couldn’t foresee the possibility of mass death and go “hey wait a minute”
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May 7, 2020 15:46
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Sharkie posted:I think the most telling thing is that when it comes to the awful things Biden has done, his defenders itt shrug their shoulders and say "ah, well."
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May 7, 2020 15:48
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Mellow Seas posted:The US had a massive military presence in Iraq for over a decade and only killed like 3% of the people there, I think if their goal was "genocide" they did a poo poo job of it. "Genocide" means something and it doesn't mean "shittily-executed war against people of a different ethnicity". genocide has nothing to do with scale but this post is very “informative”
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May 7, 2020 15:48
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Mellow Seas posted:The US had a massive military presence in Iraq for over a decade and only killed like 3% of the people there, I think if their goal was "genocide" they did a poo poo job of it. "Genocide" means something and it doesn't mean "shittily-executed war against people of a different ethnicity". I genuinely hope bad things happen to you (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 7, 2020 15:48
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Ok the we can at least agree Biden supports the ability of the president to have American citizens executed without trial, including children? Since that was official Obama policy that Biden supported as VP.
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May 7, 2020 15:48
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*wipes out 3% of the population of a major country* ah heh, pretty poo poo job of 'genocide' huh, lib babies 
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May 7, 2020 15:49
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how dare you say Biden did genocide in the Middle East, when the geographically accurate term for the region is "Southwest Asia"
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May 7, 2020 15:49
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sexpig by night posted:I genuinely hope bad things happen to you Why? Because I think a terrible war was done for the terrible reasons it was stated to have been done for, and not some other imaginary reason I have to fabricate to make my enemies look like even bigger monsters than they already are?
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May 7, 2020 15:52
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maybe one day someone will answer my questions
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May 7, 2020 15:55
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E: ^^^ Someone really should respond to this poster, but if I’ve noticed one pattern in this thread, it’s that the VBNMW crowd is mostly interested in dunks and score-settling with the Bernie supporters who were mean to them before. This isn’t a debate or a discussion, it’s just grieving leftists being riled up by five trolls over and over again.yronic heroism posted:As far as ideology goes, who said ideology should be hopeful? Ideology should accurately describe the world. Religion should be hopeful, and should never be substituted for ideology. Meditation and exercise should be hopeful. You want hope, plant a garden or go to your preferred house of worship. This is from several pages ago, but it’ll stick with me for a very long time. In 2008, all of my peers had “HOPE” everywhere. Stickers, t-shirts, dorm room posters. It was overwhelming. I’m trying right now to remember how it felt to win that November. There was a raucous block party outside my house, a big projector set up with the election results. If 2004 had been devastating, 2008 was jubilant. It’s kind of wild to even recall. Obama won our state, Indiana, even. Incredible. Inevitably, the response to this would be to separate out “political strategy” from “ideology,” but that’s bogus. We believed in Obama because he centered that strategy as the core of his ideology. His message was one of aggressive, relentless hope for the future—and as everyone knows, he’s probably the most gifted speaker of his generation of politicians. The fact that he didn’t follow through on any of that doesn’t make us suckers. Hope is so vital. Prester Jane in USPOL at one point said that hope was the most radical act of all, and say what you will of PJ’s posts, that one rang true to me. It is radical to hope, especially when we live 12 years after that election, in the wake of all of Obama’s broken promises that metastasized into the cancer that is Trumpism. And 2020 was the process of taking every bit of hope from this election and stamping it out, over and over again, until we’re left with this: a senior citizen stumbling around with a full cone of ice cream melting in his hand, uncritically signing on to the foreign policy goals of the fascist president. Of course we want something to hope in now. Everything is horrifyingly dark, and I sincerely wonder if every year will just be worse than the last. And if you think the way to reach voters like me is to sneer that we should just grow a garden if we want to hope? Well, gently caress you. rko fucked around with this message at 15:59 on May 7, 2020 |
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May 7, 2020 15:55
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If you're going to be a persnickety nerd, it should be about something fun like Star Wars or Pokemon instead of the precise categorization of war crimes.
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May 7, 2020 15:57
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Mellow Seas posted:The US had a massive military presence in Iraq for over a decade and only killed like 3% of the people there, I think if their goal was "genocide" they did a poo poo job of it. "Genocide" means something and it doesn't mean "shittily-executed war against people of a different ethnicity". The goal of the Iraqi invasion was not genocide, it was profit. By that metric, it was EXTREMELY successful. The method was war which certainly involved genocide. It doesn't mean they were bad at killing people, it means they were efficient at creating profit.
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May 7, 2020 15:58
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One of the main pillars of liberalism is that actual consequences are irrelevant and the goodness of systems can only be evaluated by the stated intentions behind them. This is how they justify all of the actual horrific results of their system, everyone's intentions were good, so the system is good and those unfortunate results must be necessary or unavoidable or for the greater good or whatever. You can kill a million people, as long as your intentions were good, then it's good. When Republicans kill a million people it's bad, because they had bad intentions, but a liberal can kill those same people and it's good because their intentions were good.
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May 7, 2020 15:59
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Cpt_Obvious posted:The goal of the Iraqi invasion was not genocide, it was profit. By that metric, it was EXTREMELY successful. The method was war which certainly involved genocide. It doesn't mean they were bad at killing people, it means they were efficient at creating profit. I dunno COIN was basically “kill anyone brown and moving” but that was years after the invasion
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May 7, 2020 16:00
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Do most Americans even know about Venezuela or care about it enough to want to intervene in it? I don’t know why you would support that because it’s just the Trump opinion but less, when I think the average person just wants to leave things alone right now.
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May 7, 2020 16:01
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VitalSigns posted:One of the main pillars of liberalism is that actual consequences are irrelevant and the goodness of systems can only be evaluated by the stated intentions behind them. This is how they justify all of the actual horrific results of their system, everyone's intentions were good, so the system is good and those unfortunate results must be necessary or unavoidable or for the greater good or whatever. Well if we're talking about "how lovely is lovely Person Joe Biden, who is trying to be our next lovely President", intent is very much relevant to just how lovely he is and what lovely actions he's likely to take in the future. I never said anybody had good intentions re: Iraq, although if anybody was stupid and gullible enough to it was probably Joe Biden.
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May 7, 2020 16:01
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bobjr posted:Do most Americans even know about Venezuela or care about it enough to want to intervene in it? I don’t know why you would support that because it’s just the Trump opinion but less, when I think the average person just wants to leave things alone right now. the liberal elite very much want a coup in that country as well, as evidenced by every single one of them saying that we need to "bring democracy" to the country.
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May 7, 2020 16:02
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Raskolnikov38 posted:I dunno COIN was basically “kill anyone brown and moving” but that was years after the invasion yeah the objectives shifted to "attrition" once everyone in power was finally forced to stop deluding themselves that we'd be hailed as liberators by a grateful population bearing barrels of tribute oil aaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnyyyyyyyyyy day now
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May 7, 2020 16:03
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That Biden Tweet was from last year but he absolutely still supports a coup, even if it turns the country into a slave market Libya-style. I can't think of a socialist nation he hasn't supported extralegal measures in overthrowing regardless of the consequences, maybe Vietnam after they won but also after they agreed to make our stuff for cheap?yronic heroism posted:There’s a difference between having a desired endpoint to work for and assuming on faith that the endpoint will definitely happen and be, to borrow a phrase, the end of history. Think of it more like a framework, upon which many different schools of thought are built on. Marx himself was not utopianist, and utopianists of the day thought him grim and prickly, because the thought of the present moment as a precondition of communism for them was dreadful to imagine even if he explains himself quite thoroughly. He's a very interesting figure and worth reading if only to understand why he's such a juggernaut of thought since he more or less defined Capitalism as we know it (until then it was pitched as Just The Way Things Are as is the rigorously enforced messaging now) and was frequently catty even in his formal academic stuff As for the inevitability of communism, it's something he made arguments for, but not to the point that some people hear it which is along the lines of "the USSR or China is inevitable", nobody can say what the form or contradictions that drive it will take, but considering capitalist production is a huge aberration compared to history it's a safe bet that combined with its in-built inability to deal with crises of the commons like we're seeing now means it's a safe bet it's doomed on any real time scale. This probably constitutes a derail at this point so I'll stop, but I do recommend reading up on materialism because it really does make a lot more stuff make sense even if you don't agree with it and will really spell out why so many leftists sincerely do not see any real difference between the two parties rko posted:E: ^^^ Someone really should respond to this poster, but if I’ve noticed one pattern in this thread, it’s that the VBNMW crowd is mostly interested in dunks and score-settling with the Bernie supporters who were mean to them before. This isn’t a debate or a discussion, it’s just grieving leftists being riled up by five trolls over and over again. It's crazy that it went from that, to me having to remind people that Progressive Campaign Obama won our state but Liberal Austerity Obama lost it lmao, does drive home the need to elect a progressive for a lot of people tho
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May 7, 2020 16:05
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I, personally, hope that Biden comes out with a full endorsement of whatever means necessary to overthrow Maduro, because that would make it less likely Trump decides to escalate
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May 7, 2020 16:07
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Mellow Seas posted:Well if we're talking about "how lovely is lovely Person Joe Biden, who is trying to be our next lovely President", intent is very much relevant to just how lovely he is and what lovely actions he's likely to take in the future. yeah my personal belief is the same as Chomsky's: the people like Biden who support these wars and genocides don't do it because they get a sick thrill over killing Arabs, they just don't consider foreigners people at all and treat killing them as no different than you or I treading on some ants while out for a jog. You wouldn't go do it on purpose, but if they're in the way you don't really care if you kill them. I also agree with Chomsky that this isn't, morally, any better than deliberate sadism, and arguably worse since sadists at least recognize the humanity of their victims, instead of treating them like insects to be crushed without a second thought. Anyone trying to split hairs and litigate the grades of morality of the perpetrators of mass murder is a tremendously silly person, at best.
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May 7, 2020 16:07
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The Iraq invasion/war was a tremendous success if you’re were a military contractor, owned stock in a military contractor, or in the oil business and located anywhere but the middle east. It’s success was incredible, as to be almost incalculable, if we’re talking moving public money into private hands.
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May 7, 2020 16:07
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VitalSigns posted:yeah my personal belief is the same as Chomsky's: the people like Biden who support these wars and genocides don't do it because they get a sick thrill over killing Arabs, they just don't consider foreigners people at all and treat killing them as no different than you or I treading on some ants while out for a jog. You wouldn't go do it on purpose, but if they're in the way you don't really care if you kill them. If this was 2019 this would be where mormonpartyboat came in and reminded us that Bernie voted for the AUMF and is therefore a war criminal  And of course, he was still going to vote for Bernie anyway. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 7, 2020 16:09
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Mellow Seas posted:Well if we're talking about "how lovely is lovely Person Joe Biden, who is trying to be our next lovely President", intent is very much relevant to just how lovely he is and what lovely actions he's likely to take in the future. While it's certainly relevant, the methods are more important. If someone wants to cure the AIDS epidemic by rounding up all the gays into camps, well, you can't really say that he had good intentions, because he intended to do terrible things.* In that same vein, even if Biden genuinely wanted to bring stability to the middle east by killing hundreds of thousands of people, he is certainly intending to kill hundreds of thousands of people. And no, there's no possible way you can look at planning an invasion and not weigh the human cost. So he knew a lot of people were going to die before he approved it. You can't separate consequences from intentions, especially when those consequences are a known part of the plan. *I am not saying Joe Biden is trying to harm the LGBTQ community. Although, at this point, I'm guessing a Republican could probably convince him to do it.
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May 7, 2020 16:09
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Mellow Seas posted:Well if we're talking about "how lovely is lovely Person Joe Biden, who is trying to be our next lovely President", intent is very much relevant to just how lovely he is and what lovely actions he's likely to take in the future. I wish you would just post about things you think about politics instead of 95% of what you bring to this thread, which is complaining that the rest of us are committing rhetorical crimes on this stupid forum where people pay $50 to give a ton of people Biden AVs instead of actually making an argument Like, yes, intent matters, and you’re a loving rube if you think Biden was just a doe-eyed innocent being misled by the Bush administration.
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May 7, 2020 16:10
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Mellow Seas posted:If this was 2019 this would be where mormonpartyboat came in and reminded us that Bernie voted for the AUMF and is therefore a war criminal correct, Bernie is a war criminal I see you've found you can no longer defend Biden and are pivoting
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May 7, 2020 16:10
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Mellow Seas posted:The US had a massive military presence in Iraq for over a decade and only killed like 3% of the people there, I think if their goal was "genocide" they did a poo poo job of it. "Genocide" means something and it doesn't mean "shittily-executed war against people of a different ethnicity".  Uh, what the hell? "Only" killed like 3% of the people there? Do you really believe that because the figure isn't 100% of Iraqis killed it can't be considered a genocide?
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May 7, 2020 16:12
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COVID-19 posted:
Don’t forget how our criminal use of depleted uranium is still mutilating infants over there. Or how this is just the latest episode in a century of imperial violence in the Middle East we’ve been gleeful participants in. Honestly, Mellow, it’d be nice to see an apology for that. It’s pretty sick poo poo.
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May 7, 2020 16:14
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VitalSigns posted:correct, Bernie is a war criminal I was "defending" Biden from charges of being pro-genocide. And I'm just pointing out that if you were willing - enthusiastic, even! - to vote for Bernie, then "Joe Biden is a war criminal" isn't specifically giving me a reason not to vote for him. If people want to make arguments that his reasons aren't particularly germane to the discussion when he still has that blood on his hands - which I think you're trying to do, and Cpt Obvious is actually doing a pretty good job of, I think, and I'm sorry I haven't responded - that's one thing. But if you come out and say that "Joe Biden...wanted to kill Savage Brown People" is a "true" statement, sure, I'll defend him from that. I started this discussion because I don't think Joe Biden <3 Genocide and people were throwing the word around and declaring it self-evident. He's certainly more comfortable with mass death than I would prefer from my President.
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May 7, 2020 16:15
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rko posted:Don’t forget how our criminal use of depleted uranium is still mutilating infants over there. Or how this is just the latest episode in a century of imperial violence in the Middle East we’ve been gleeful participants in. I'll apologize for using the word "only" when referring to the deaths of a million plus people. It was in a specific context but it's still inappropriate and I'm sorry. We know how civilians died in Iraq and it wasn't a systematic effort to exterminate populations. It was accepting thousands upon thousands of murders in the service of a dubious goal. And yes, that's really bad. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 16:18 on May 7, 2020 |
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May 7, 2020 16:16
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Mellow Seas posted:I was "defending" Biden from charges of being pro-genocide. And I'm just pointing out that if you were willing - enthusiastic, even! - to vote for Bernie, then "Joe Biden is a war criminal" isn't specifically giving me a reason not to vote for him. Once again, supporting a genocide masquerading as a "war" is still supporting genocide, regardless of the intentions of the person who supported the genocide.
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May 7, 2020 16:16
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Mellow Seas posted:I was "defending" Biden from charges of being pro-genocide. he is objectively pro-genocide, have you heard of Yemen?
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May 7, 2020 16:18
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Mellow Seas posted:I'll apologize for using the word "only" when referring to the deaths of a million plus people. It was in a specific context but it's still inappropriate and I'm sorry. Oh cool, so mass murder out of pure indifference and ingrained racism, but not genocide. Cool.
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May 7, 2020 16:18
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Mellow Seas posted:And I'm just pointing out that if you were willing - enthusiastic, even! - to vote for Bernie, then "Joe Biden is a war criminal" isn't specifically giving me a reason not to vote for him. lol are you really making the argument that if I'm willing to vote for Bernie, then voting for any war criminal is now okay you'd vote for President Mengele then?
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May 7, 2020 16:21
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Araenna posted:maybe one day someone will answer my questions The usual suspects might just have you on ignore, because they can't think of a way to smear you. Mellow Seas posted:I was "defending" Biden from charges of being pro-genocide. And I'm just pointing out that if you were willing - enthusiastic, even! - to vote for Bernie, then "Joe Biden is a war criminal" isn't specifically giving me a reason not to vote for him. Do you actually have to defend him at all, though? Arguing that because his policies and actions didn't kill everyone in the middle east, just a bunch of them, means that he's not cool with genocide seems like a strange use of your time. Especially when you do this for a man you don't even like.
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May 7, 2020 16:22
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VitalSigns posted:lol are you really making the argument that if I'm willing to vote for Bernie, then voting for any war criminal is now okay I don't think your logic quite works on this one. We were both agreeing that being a war criminal does not preclude one from voting for someone, not that any war criminal is worth a vote.
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May 7, 2020 16:23
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Sure, Biden has a history of supporting genocidal wars throughout his entire life, but he has never said the words "I want genocide", so like, we can't claim he's pro genocide you see. It just wouldn't be accurate. Anyway, vote blue no matter who.
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May 7, 2020 16:24
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COVID-19 posted:Anyway, vote blue no matter who. Not saying that. Vote your conscience, vote strategically, don't vote, do whatever. It's your vote. It's yours.
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May 7, 2020 16:29
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