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Frosted Flake posted:Just pragmatically, Genderqueer Spoonie PMC are not interested in a left that tackles material issues because it is not in the class interest. Please, come on, the actual problem with intersectionality-as-identity idpol stuff is not the gap between your two hypothethicals, no matter who you think has it worse. That gap becomes almost irrelevant when you compare it to the gap between both of those people and someone like Jeff Bezos. Losing sight of that is the real issue. thotsky has issued a correction as of 14:56 on May 15, 2020 |
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May 15, 2020 14:54
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Frosted Flake posted:lol funny that Amber just wrote an article about how useless radlibs are. jesus christ its creepy how you and crowsbeak have an identical lexicon of responses. clearly you all just reached the same clear-eyed realpolitik approach to leftism independently and aren't just parroting the mean girls because they offer the "correct" position that demands the least introspection or personal growth
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May 15, 2020 15:01
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Solidarity with the oppressed millionaires
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May 15, 2020 15:02
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coathat posted:Solidarity with the oppressed millionaires solidarity with historically oppressed maga pool salesmen
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May 15, 2020 15:03
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coathat posted:I think you're confused about who came up with the term Professional Managerial Class and who uses it and how it's used quite possibly wrong, but never confused
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May 15, 2020 15:09
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Panzeh posted:FWIW i think it's pretty spot on that Corbyn having to actually pick a side on brexit publically and strongly definitely tanked his election and I was pretty off base assuming it wouldn't be significant. yeah it was completely heartbreaking as is often the case, i think trueanon's take on this is actually pretty good, if dispiriting - brexit was the actually existing revolt against neoliberalism, and it behooves any good radical to accept that rather than say 'no, not like that' when it becomes obvious that it's the fact. the failure to really accept the referendum result and to stake a path forwards was primarily the failure of the urban lefties - they, more than the northerners who stayed home, were the ones in the wrong IMO
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May 15, 2020 15:10
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V. Illych L. posted:yeah it was completely heartbreaking I'm not bitter about it, honest, but I kinda wish there was a reckoning for all the people who very loudly proclaimed that "Lexit" was a stupid idea
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May 15, 2020 15:12
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as a disclaimer i also got this wrong at the time btw, and i *hate* the EU
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May 15, 2020 15:12
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Yeah the left has a terrible tendency to disparage people for voting the wrong way or not voting when they really should be asking why and what the problem with themselves is that people aren't interested.
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May 15, 2020 15:13
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thotsky posted:Please, come on, the actual problem with intersectionality-as-identity idpol stuff is not the gap between your two hypothethicals, no matter who you think has it worse. That gap becomes almost irrelevant when you compare it to the gap between both of those people and someone like Jeff Bezos. Losing sight of that is the real issue. exactly because of that, that it happens acting on the relative differences between someone whose material relations I can at least conceive to be within my realistic possibilities makes much more sense than bezos, you know thus the struggle of class consciousness
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May 15, 2020 15:13
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V. Illych L. posted:yeah it was completely heartbreaking If Labor supported remain they would get defectors to the Brexit Party, if they supported leave they would get defectors to the Lib Dems. Leave was the good game theory choice but there was no win.
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May 15, 2020 15:15
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Grevling posted:Yeah the left has a terrible tendency to disparage people for voting the wrong way or not voting when they really should be asking why and what the problem with themselves is that people aren't interested. I feel like that's changing though, it's a topic that comes up in leftist Corbyn postmortems as well as post-Trump analyses. IIRC Chapo and Amber especially have brought that point up several times. I mean, liberals are always going to treat voting as some personal civic responsibility rather than a barometer for how much faith people have in the governing institutions. But liberalism as the ideological basis for ordering society is headed for the dustbin of history. The right is coalescing around a response, and I think the left is also.
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May 15, 2020 15:19
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Autism Sneaks posted:jesus christ its creepy how you and crowsbeak have an identical lexicon of responses. clearly you all just reached the same clear-eyed realpolitik approach to leftism independently and aren't just parroting the mean girls because they offer the "correct" position that demands the least introspection or personal growth What poly/trans/queer youtubers can I watch to reach Nirvana? Capital isn’t the loving Dao De Jing. Clearly, my personal and political identity doesn’t spring from being bullied in high school, and no amount of “introspection” or “personal growth” will change that. Yeah, I’d be happier if the left wasn’t full of squishes who are just looking for a place where they won’t be rejected and will move heaven and earth to ensure nobody is ever ostracized or excluded, but that’s not the point. The point is if they show up and do the work, they’re valuable. I like Mean Girls, it was a fantastic film, and people should be able to quote it whenever they like.
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May 15, 2020 15:20
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Dmitri-9 posted:If Labor supported remain they would get defectors to the Brexit Party, if they supported leave they would get defectors to the Lib Dems. Leave was the good game theory choice but there was no win. but Labour's historical socialist position was against the EU, they could have capitalized on that pretty easily imho Corbyn is a very good man but that was a John McDonnell moment, to put forward a combative, bold socialist case against the EU in Labour's favor
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May 15, 2020 15:22
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dead gay comedy forums posted:but Labour's historical socialist position was against the EU, they could have capitalized on that pretty easily imho I don't really think that would've worked, either. As I said, I think ambiguity worked heavily to his benefit. I mean, yeah, you're right that you could do a lot more socialism outside the EU than within it, but Britain was never really in it in the first place and did in fact have things like control over its own currency but this was never actually used to do more socialism. Frosted Flake posted:What poly/trans/queer youtubers can I watch to reach Nirvana? Capital isn’t the loving Dao De Jing. lol this whole thing by someone who's like "noooo don't ostracize or exclude aimee terese, we need her at the end of our bench"
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May 15, 2020 15:26
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Panzeh posted:I don't really think that would've worked, either. As I said, I think ambiguity worked heavily to his benefit. I mean, yeah, you're right that you could do a lot more socialism outside the EU than within it, but Britain was never really in it in the first place and did in fact have things like control over its own currency but this was never actually used to do more socialism. Which is amazing. A lot of the benefits and exclusive economic controls that Britain managed to retain were due to Labour's participation in the entrance process, right?
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May 15, 2020 15:28
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Aimee is a beautiful Lebanese Australian woman, and as a marginalized person of colour, deserves to be centred in the left.
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May 15, 2020 15:29
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V. Illych L. posted:yeah it was completely heartbreaking
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May 15, 2020 15:34
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dead gay comedy forums posted:but Labour's historical socialist position was against the EU, they could have capitalized on that pretty easily imho If Corbyn had come out for Brexit he would have been roasted alive, especially by the media and the libs in Labour. I guarantee they had a bunch of stuff ready for him if he took a stand rather than cave to their bullying. He still should have, because in hindsight it would have been much better for the left if he had gone out in a blaze of glory, but it was no path to victory. The only path forward, and it was always a long shot, was to stay out of it, focus on policy, and play the traditional opposition party role, but he was denied that opportunity by forces in his own party and a hostile media who made him out to have to answer for the mess the other party made.
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May 15, 2020 15:38
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Frosted Flake posted:What poly/trans/queer youtubers can I watch to reach Nirvana? Capital isn’t the loving Dao De Jing. not at all weird or worrying you can't even breathe without your exhale being a litany of, and I cannot stress this enough, statistically insignificant minorities you've identified as your enemies also you come off as someone whose identity and politics are extremely wound up in your formative years, as in you have the reasoning and empathy capacity of a dumb teenager
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May 15, 2020 15:42
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dead gay comedy forums posted:but Labour's historical socialist position was against the EU, they could have capitalized on that pretty easily imho the issue is that they were hosed by this understated and pretty fundamental conflict. i sincerely believe that the labour leadership didn't fully appreciate how deep that fault line was and how toxic it was going to get, and when they couldn't paper over it they had to choose and gamble that the north still hates the tories enough to accept it. this was understandable and it's unclear how it could've been handled better at that point - going brexiteer would've demolished their base of young activists, so important for actually doing electioneering and for corbyn's hold of the party. the problem is that they were forced to choose between these groups. IMO, given the facts on the ground, the young activist types should've done more reflection about brexit and started preparing the ground for a labour brexit compromise. this was hard to spot at the time, though - i certainly didn't catch it - so it's unfortunately going to have to be a lesson for the future. but, exploring the contours of this fault line and accepting that there are legitimate interests on both sides of it is necessary work, and unfortunately frowned upon by much of the left.
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May 15, 2020 15:46
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Autism Sneaks posted:not at all weird or worrying you can't even breathe without your exhale being a litany of, and I cannot stress this enough, statistically insignificant minorities you've identified as your enemies lol are you saying I did a no growth?
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May 15, 2020 15:46
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no you just post badly
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May 15, 2020 15:49
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frosted flake you're being a case in point for your ideological opponents, this is a bad idea hth
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May 15, 2020 15:51
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thotsky posted:If Corbyn had come out for Brexit he would have been roasted alive, especially by the media and the libs in Labour most def I just can't help but to think about the contrast with Ireland, which is something we tend to forget a lot around here. Sinn Féin got stuck in with its principles, played a long game and won anchored in what can be argued as a fundamentally leftist position, while their Labour got a wipeout worthy of François Hollande. Like, there was a point with Corbyn after his leadership victory (and I just learned more about who the man was), 6 or 7 months, that I remember some collection of all the alleged things about him and made the guy look like the most glorious fucker ever since Labour got founded to lead the party. If Corbyn had even the tiniest killer instinct in him, he would have capitalized on that by inviting Gerry Adams to a pint, sing IRA songs, say that Yasser Arafat did nothing wrong and that the Duchy of Lancaster was going to put out some good rates on property tax because the Queen surely loves her countries
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May 15, 2020 15:53
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Frosted Flake posted:lol are you saying I did a no growth? in the way nobody uses it outside that tweet or riffs on it, a no growth would be what you're doing right now. what I implied is that your brain stopped developing over eight years too early
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May 15, 2020 15:55
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Autism Sneaks posted:in the way nobody uses it outside that tweet or riffs on it, a no growth would be what you're doing right now. what I implied is that your brain stopped developing over eight years too early You’ve had multiple meltdowns in this thread, and now you’re veering very close to ableism. Yikes sweetie. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 15, 2020 16:00
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Panzeh posted:lol this whole thing by someone who's like "noooo don't ostracize or exclude aimee terese, we need her at the end of our bench" i think you need to draw a line somewhere, but you also have to give a little and accept that a debate within a broader movement is a healthy, good thing. she's probably not a good example though because i just found her tweets to be annoying. V. Illych L. posted:the issue is that they were hosed by this understated and pretty fundamental conflict. i sincerely believe that the labour leadership didn't fully appreciate how deep that fault line was and how toxic it was going to get, and when they couldn't paper over it they had to choose and gamble that the north still hates the tories enough to accept it. this was understandable and it's unclear how it could've been handled better at that point - going brexiteer would've demolished their base of young activists, so important for actually doing electioneering and for corbyn's hold of the party. BrutalistMcDonalds has issued a correction as of 16:09 on May 15, 2020 |
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May 15, 2020 16:01
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Frosted Flake posted:You’ve had multiple meltdowns in this thread, and now you’re veering very close to ableism. Yikes sweetie.  go back to stupidpol already you creep
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May 15, 2020 16:06
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Frosted Flake posted:What poly/trans/queer youtubers can I watch to reach Nirvana? Capital isn’t the loving Dao De Jing. Good thing there's no "poly/trans/queer" people in the rural working class"
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May 15, 2020 16:06
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Frosted Flake posted:lol are you saying I did a no growth? You get challenged the slightest bit and you jump to these canned anti-idpol responses as complete non sequiturs, your brain is loving broken lmao.
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May 15, 2020 16:10
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:well maybe i made this point awhile ago when her tweets would keep getting posted in threads, but she just struck me as a dope. but i think v. illych is right that being dumb and wrong most of the time and vomiting up some reactionary ideas you've absorbed doesn't automatically make you a nazi. Yeah, you're not wrong. It's sometimes hard to take nationalist dead-ender takes all that seriously but yeah they aren't nazis, just kinda dumb and it's unrealistic and a bit bizarre to expect any political movement not to have meaningful internal debate.
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May 15, 2020 16:11
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A bit funny since we're real-time seeing liberals completely abandon idpol the moment they might be required to actually answer to it
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May 15, 2020 16:12
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StashAugustine posted:Good thing there's no "poly/trans/queer" people in the rural working class" the projection of bourgeois character onto classes of people who are generally the most impoverished or otherwise at risk is basically antisemitic poo poo with different words scribbled in. instead of accusing Jewish doctors and bankers as being some kind of weak link at best or fifth column at worst in a proletarian mass movement, it's trans trustfunders or poly PMCs or whatever inane strawmen they can blame the failure of the left to capture or retain the working class in its activism. not, you know, a coordinated, protracted assault by the prevailing hegemonic economic and cultural system and its beneficiaries
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May 15, 2020 16:14
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Panzeh posted:Yeah, you're not wrong. It's sometimes hard to take nationalist dead-ender takes all that seriously but yeah they aren't nazis, just kinda dumb and it's unrealistic and a bit bizarre to expect any political movement not to have meaningful internal debate.
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May 15, 2020 16:15
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Frosted Flake posted:You’ve had multiple meltdowns in this thread, and now you’re veering very close to ableism. Yikes sweetie. lol at a nominal leftist using the same rhetorical device as shitheads like shapiro of using woke language in bad faith to "own" another leftist you're arguing with
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May 15, 2020 16:17
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Frosted Flake posted:You’ve had multiple meltdowns in this thread, and now you’re veering very close to ableism. Yikes sweetie. people tried to tell TURN LEFT TURN LEFT but alas too late
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May 15, 2020 16:20
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Autism Sneaks posted:the projection of bourgeois character onto classes of people who are generally the most impoverished or otherwise at risk is basically antisemitic poo poo with different words scribbled in. instead of accusing Jewish doctors and bankers as being some kind of weak link at best or fifth column at worst in a proletarian mass movement, it's trans trustfunders or poly PMCs or whatever inane strawmen they can blame the failure of the left to capture or retain the working class in its activism. not, you know, a coordinated, protracted assault by the prevailing hegemonic economic and cultural system and its beneficiaries Kind of the problem though is liberals eagerly contribute to this, and generally are almost incapable of understanding the existence of say, minorities living in red states, queer people disproportionately being homeless and/or sex workers due to being thrown out of or having to run away from their homes, and so on. It's basically the same formula as white feminism; issues of prejudice are appropriated by the upper-class scions who happen to fall within a discriminated category and ultimately only recognise issues that directly relate to them, often seeing any other or broader issues getting any focus as a threat to their agenda. They aren't the only kind of wreckers in leftist movements and probably not even a significant percentage of them in the big picture, but they're very visible and very annoying to everyone involved Hooplah posted:lol at a nominal leftist using the same rhetorical device as shitheads like shapiro of using woke language in bad faith to "own" another leftist you're arguing with Where do you think the right wing shitheads got the idea from in the first place
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May 15, 2020 16:23
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Stupidpol types are not nazis themselves, but they're the types who desperately wish they could they could be ironic nazis The most tragic detail of this existence is they also seem to be repulsed by warhammer
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May 15, 2020 16:31
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:yep. well, it's neurotic. but you need a strong material base to have that meaningful debate, since that what provides the foundation to draw some lines where you need to as opposed to some mystical, liberal notion that ideas have no material basis and just float around in the aether. and like i was saying, that will grow over time. just gotta keep plugging away at it. yeah it's always gonna be a tough sell that "hey guys, you're basically the beneficiaries of a historical process where most of the world's wealth was plundered and brought to your country so of course people from thoroughly looted countries want to come there" compared to "lol immigration is a neolib plot" or "immigration is an invasion egged on by the 'globalists' to destroy your culture and genocide you" and honestly it's a political problem that i don't really know how to solve, but i don't think it involves cranking up the racism dial
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May 15, 2020 16:32
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