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Declan MacManus posted:otoh we already had one sexual revolution and zero workers revolutions in the past 50 years so if i have to bet one one happening, the "sexual revolution" (there have been a number of periods where this term is thought to apply, including post-HIV) has a complicated legacy
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May 15, 2020 19:05
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Pick posted:communism would have to mandate people took turns/shifts doing necessary crap work like canning corn or corn won't get canned. it would not need to mandate people have sex because people do that voluntarily for its own sake. I think my problem here is that you're assuming prostitution is created by capitalism and isn't merely controlled by it. In any society sex will have some hypothetical exchange value, to assume everyone will abstain from sex work because it's not mandated by the state is highly flawed. Either it gets pushed into a black market or there is some kind of regulation. I literally know people who have their needs met through family money, but do sex work anyways because hey, it's nice to have extra money for nice things sometimes. A state where base level needs are met isn't going to take away that impulse.
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May 15, 2020 19:05
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Top City Homo posted:what good or service would a prostitute obtain if all essential goods and services are provided through post scarcity cornucopia i.e. communism? Non-essential ones?
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May 15, 2020 19:09
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Top City Homo posted:what good or service would a prostitute obtain if all essential goods and services are provided through post scarcity cornucopia i.e. communism? non-essential goods? communism isn't necessarily post-scarcity; with the collective ownership of capital people could feasably work to enrich themselves, provided they don't enrich themselves by buying capital. going back to the corn canning example it's reasonable to assume peoples mandated lovely job shifts would provide some reward.
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May 15, 2020 19:10
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https://twitter.com/DeItaOne/status/1261357657648173057?s=19
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May 15, 2020 19:12
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uninterrupted posted:I think my problem here is that you're assuming prostitution is created by capitalism and isn't merely controlled by it. In any society sex will have some hypothetical exchange value, to assume everyone will abstain from sex work because it's not mandated by the state is highly flawed. Either it gets pushed into a black market or there is some kind of regulation. Going off of this, I want to explore the idea of drudgery more generally. I wonder how much coercive power would actually have to be employed to get people to do work like mopping floors or painting walls. For a personal example, I do the dishes whenever I'm staying with friends. I wash everyone's dishes. They never ask me too--it fact, they jokingly tell me I'm an rear end in a top hat for doing it. We just laugh it off, and I go back to washing their plates and stuff. I dont do it because I expect any compensation. I do it because I like helping people I care about. Couldn't the same be true for painting bridges or scrubbing toilets? That in doing drudgery, youre helping people you care about? And if the whole point of communism is to fight for someone you dont know, to feel community with someone you've never met, wouldn't that extend into canning corn for someone on the other side of the planet, because you think they deserve to have corn that's properly canned? I'm not an expert on any of this by a long shot. Right now I'm more trying to work through my own thoughts and experiences, and how they might help me (or us?) envision a future where work has been divorced from the pathogen of capitalist labor
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May 15, 2020 19:12
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I'd paint a bridge if they let me write "Butts" on it in huge letters tbqh. then everyone would have to cross the butt bridge.
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May 15, 2020 19:15
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Pick posted:the "sexual revolution" (there have been a number of periods where this term is thought to apply, including post-HIV) has a complicated legacy that is fair, but i also feel like destigmatization of sex work is something (relatively) simpler to work for than the end of capitalism and equating the two just feels like typical leftist “well middle america will never go for it”, throwing up hands, and going back to fantasizing about what they’ll be doing in the vanguard after the revolution
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May 15, 2020 19:15
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i would never cross a butt bridge
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May 15, 2020 19:16
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cool dance moves posted:I dont doubt that there are people who would want to take up sex work as a craft. LOLing imagining people taking up prostitution part time as a craft the way some people take up beekeeping or raising heirloom tomatoes and using phrases like “Quality, locally-sourced artisanal sex work.” Not that there’s anything wrong with people doing that, mind you. I just find the mental image funny. Egg Moron posted:You can argue that changing the culture around the shame associated with sex and what not is a vital component of the sex work legitimacy movement but that feels less realistic than dismantling capitalism imo Changing culture is FAR easier than changing economic realities. Rich people don’t lose anything material from cultural changes so you won’t get the CIA murdering activists and whatnot if some kind of sex work legitimacy movement gains steam.
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May 15, 2020 19:17
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Nothus posted:The idea of using tobacco plants for large-scale protein production is an old one. I'm not sure why the idea never advanced beyond academic lab proofs of concept, but there has to be a huge drawback somewhere. Microorganisms give good yield at low cost for most proteins in biotech and proteins of medical interest more often requires post-translational modifications on proteins which plants can't produce. For those proteins suitable for plant production there are frequently other plants with higher yield per acre. The basics are still sound though.
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May 15, 2020 19:18
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uninterrupted posted:I think my problem here is that you're assuming prostitution is created by capitalism and isn't merely controlled by it. In any society sex will have some hypothetical exchange value, to assume everyone will abstain from sex work because it's not mandated by the state is highly flawed. Either it gets pushed into a black market or there is some kind of regulation. you also can't control for people who marry into money for the money's sake, but go back to that earlier post about how talking about street prostitution in the same breath as blowing a rich acquaintance for a Louis Vuitton is inherently not going to work because aside from the fact that sex is involved these two phenomena have almost nothing in common
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May 15, 2020 19:20
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Zudgemud posted:Microorganisms give good yield at low cost for most proteins in biotech and proteins of medical interest more often requires post-translational modifications on proteins which plants can't produce. For those proteins suitable for plant production there are frequently other plants with higher yield per acre. The basics are still sound though. they have the infrastructure in place and tobacco has been dying for good pr since the 70s
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May 15, 2020 19:21
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readingatwork posted:LOLing imagining people taking up prostitution part time as a craft the way some people take up beekeeping or raising heirloom tomatoes and using phrases like “Quality, locally-sourced artisanal sex work.” Hell yeah give me fair-trade vibrators and cruelty-free leather S&M gear or give me death
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May 15, 2020 19:21
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sum posted:Thesis: My house getting robbed is bad everything is theft except actual theft, which is fine
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May 15, 2020 19:21
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That's how I always envisioned things like custodial work being accomplished: there is a social push to recognize drudge jobs like janitorial work or canning as necessary and noble for the good of society, and the janitor becomes something of a high status job because it is rightly recognized that the janitor provides an essential social function for the good of all. Like I'm already someone who makes no bones about the cleaning guy for the office I work in being an absolute hero. He comes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, vacuums, cleans the restrooms and empties the trash, and generally tidies things up. What would happen if the trash was suddenly never emptied? Drudge work keeps society running, and I'm hopeful that a communist society would recognize this and afford drudge labor status accordingly. In such a situation, you may not need much "coercive" power at all, because social standing takes care of that problem for you. When everyone loves and respects the janitor, there's more satisfaction to be found in being a janitor. Will everyone want to be a janitor? Of course not. But many would be interested in the satisfaction of being a pillar of the community.
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May 15, 2020 19:22
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however, you're ignoring how much of the ho-hum whoredom you described is a function of that vast inequality that makes taking .000000001% of a well off person's net worth easier than working for the same amount via some nonsexual avenue
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May 15, 2020 19:22
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readingatwork posted:Changing culture is FAR easier than changing economic realities. Rich people don’t lose anything material from cultural changes so you won’t get the CIA murdering activists and whatnot if some kind of sex work legitimacy movement gains steam. The CIA would absolutely murder sex worker activists if it threatens capital. The private prison industry is threatened by any movement to decriminalize well... anything so, it would absolutely fight any efforts to decriminalize/legalize sex work unless there was still a way to exploit and profit off of sex workers.
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May 15, 2020 19:26
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Like sure, you might want an extra little thing for your own amusement or comfort, but under a fair system that doesn't overwhelmingly structurally disadvantage certain groups will it be sex? Again, it's something to be very careful of because of how much it gets romanticized, while also being condemned. As a thought experiment, next time that you are at work in the office, take a look at the first five men who come to talk to you. Calculate to yourself how much you would need to be paid to be wholly sexually beholden to each of them for two hours. I really mean that, I mean really really think about that number. And think about whether that's what prostitutes are actually being paid, and if it's not, what is the cause for that gap
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May 15, 2020 19:28
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goth smoking cloves posted:unless there was still a way to exploit and profit off of sex workers. Middleman services, though probably not literal.
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May 15, 2020 19:30
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but... numer
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May 15, 2020 19:33
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Declan MacManus posted:that is fair, but i also feel like destigmatization of sex work is something (relatively) simpler to work for than the end of capitalism and equating the two just feels like typical leftist “well middle america will never go for it”, throwing up hands, and going back to fantasizing about what they’ll be doing in the vanguard after the revolution I can see the through line in this argument for sure since we've all seen attitudes around sex change so much in our lifetimes and things were already radically different 30 years ago than they were 50 years ago but unlike homosexuality or other forms of sexual expression which are independent of the economy, I don't think you are ever going to get to a place where most parents will accept that their kids will be prostitutes. I am sure many people said this about homosexuality but prostitution and things like homosexuality are categorically different.
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May 15, 2020 19:34
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cool dance moves posted:Going off of this, I want to explore the idea of drudgery more generally. I wonder how much coercive power would actually have to be employed to get people to do work like mopping floors or painting walls. I think this is a really good point and where my thoughts on communism are divorced from a lot of other people's thoughts. I don't think money has to be abolished as much as the capitalist conception of money as capital. I'm fine with someone making more money because they took a whole ton of canning shifts, or they're the best surgeon, as long as they can't use that money to hoard capital and extract labor from others. If you're part of an amazing research team that cures a pandemic, sure, here's some money to buy scotch/weed/musical instruments/caviar/what have you. As long as you can't buy land or capital with it, what's the drawback? Pick posted:you also can't control for people who marry into money for the money's sake, but go back to that earlier post about how talking about street prostitution in the same breath as blowing a rich acquaintance for a Louis Vuitton is inherently not going to work because aside from the fact that sex is involved these two phenomena have almost nothing in common Totally agreed, they're completely different, but there's this idea that all sex work, not just subsistence level street prostitution, will end. There's a good chance street prostitution would end with a state that provides a solid base level of care, but plenty of sex work is outside that. Pick posted:Like sure, you might want an extra little thing for your own amusement or comfort, but under a fair system that doesn't overwhelmingly structurally disadvantage certain groups will it be sex? Like this is exactly where we split off. You say under a fair system no one would want to trade sex for some kind of amusement or comfort; I think there would definitely be a subset of people who would have a number.
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May 15, 2020 19:36
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Egg Moron posted:I can see the through line in this argument for sure since we've all seen attitudes around sex change so much in our lifetimes and things were already radically different 30 years ago than they were 50 years ago but unlike homosexuality or other forms of sexual expression which are independent of the economy, I don't think you are ever going to get to a place where most parents will accept that their kids will be prostitutes. I am sure many people said this about homosexuality but prostitution and things like homosexuality are categorically different. well it’s like that famous quote, it’s easier to imagine the end of my parents not supporting my onlyfans than the end of capitalism
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May 15, 2020 19:38
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communism could get rid of janitors if that was what was best. it’s not that hard.
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May 15, 2020 19:38
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Trabisnikof posted:communism could get rid of janitors if that was what was best. just make office workers clean up after themselves food service people already do this
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May 15, 2020 19:39
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Nature is healing
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May 15, 2020 19:39
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Declan MacManus posted:well it’s like that famous quote, it’s easier to imagine the end of my parents not supporting my onlyfans than the end of capitalism 
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May 15, 2020 19:40
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MANDATORY SEX WORK
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May 15, 2020 19:45
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Crazypoops posted:MANDATORY SEX WORK Do we get to pick what kind?
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May 15, 2020 19:47
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Crazypoops posted:MANDATORY SEX WORK But horny is still prohibited
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May 15, 2020 19:51
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The forums gave me a report button and I'm going to start reporting ANYONE that talks about sex in the economic thread. KNOCK IT OFF
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May 15, 2020 19:57
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Mandatory sex work + Horny is prohibited the elegance of the solution is breathtaking
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May 15, 2020 19:58
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err posted:The forums gave me a report button and I'm going to start reporting ANYONE that talks about sex in the economic thread. i think there was some interesting discussion but yeah it shouldn't consume the entire thread
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May 15, 2020 20:02
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Doccykins posted:this one that got a FOX NEWS EXCLUSIVE op Is corporations saying they’re developing a Covid-19 treatment the new version of sticking “blockchain” in their name?
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May 15, 2020 20:07
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Egg Moron posted:Mandatory sex work + Horny is prohibited people loving because their corporate owners say they have to, not enjoying it, and not even remembering why they would want to, eta 2024
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May 15, 2020 20:09
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NUMBER! is slow, there is a quarantine, worldwide horniness is increasing...
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May 15, 2020 20:10
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err posted:The forums gave me a report button and I'm going to start reporting ANYONE that talks about sex in the economic thread. Report you are self!!!
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May 15, 2020 20:11
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Pick posted:people loving because their corporate owners say they have to, not enjoying it, and not even remembering why they would want to, eta 2024 That was literally one of the stated goals of The Party in 1984, lol
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May 15, 2020 20:11
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| # ? Jun 3, 2024 18:40 |
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Going off of this, I want to explore the idea of drudgery more generally. I wonder how much coercive power would actually have to be employed to get people to do work like mopping floors or painting walls. For a personal example, I do the dishes whenever I'm staying with friends. I wash everyone's dishes. They never ask me too--it fact, they jokingly tell me I'm an rear end in a top hat for doing it. We just laugh it off, and I go back to washing their plates and stuff. I dont do it because I expect any compensation. I do it because I like helping people I care about. Couldn't the same be true for painting bridges or scrubbing toilets? That in doing drudgery, youre helping people you care about? And if the whole point of communism is to fight for someone you dont know, to feel community with someone you've never met, wouldn't that extend into canning corn for someone on the other side of the planet, because you think they deserve to have corn that's properly canned? I'm not an expert on any of this by a long shot. Right now I'm more trying to work through my own thoughts and experiences, and how they might help me (or us?) envision a future where work has been divorced from the pathogen of capitalist labor [/quote] I knew a guy who had worked for years on the kill floor, he said he did it so no one else would have to.
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May 15, 2020 20:11
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